Lets be honest here, and start using some facts

StaySeated

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There is a deal to be had here between FAPA and SWAPA. There is so much more to this story than "swapa wanted a staple and FAPA wanted seat protection".

Lets be honest. If my fellow F9 pilots utilize the following goals and apply them to both qualified bidders, the answer is obvious.

FAPA’s concerns are:

* Job Protection
* Seat Protection
* Pay Protection
* Domicile Protection

1. Job Protection - we know that at least 20% of us will be furloughed at SWA. We do not know what the plan will be at RAH

2. Seat Protection - we know that seat protection is currently not on the table at SWA. We do not know what the plan will be at RAH considering the fact that we will have to complete an SLI with the IBT.

3. Pay protection - this one is obvious, nothing to see hear, moving on to...

4. Domicile protection - this one is not so obvious. There may be some form of fence for Denver with SWA. What hasn't been discussed is the deployment of airbuses to a different city if RAH wins. If Rah wants to spread out to a different domicile and they are the only other bidder than domicile protection shouldn't even be included in the top four, IMHO.

Basically, we are faced with two completely different scenarios.

SWA includes furloughs, a pay raise, and a career with a "known entity".

RAH may or may not include furloughs, no pay raises, and a career with nothing but "unknowns".

SWA is the better option. There isn't even a comparison, and I am floored at some of the things I am hearing and reading from my colleagues.

While we are being honest, it is time for the SWA guys to admit a few items.

This acquisition will help you, all of you, and you know it.

A pure staple is a "seat-grab" of the highest order.

An F9 Captain moves to the right seat, is on RSV instead of holding a line, may lose his domicile, could potentially be furloughed while at the bottom of the list, but keeps his pay? This is a windfall? Come on guys, you lose nothing by agreeing to a ratio integration. By putting the entire F9 list at the bottom you immediately upgrade over 200 FO's to Captain and receive a furlough buffer at the junior end of the list. Who is getting a windfall here?

There is a deal to be had here, and a fair one at that.

Hopefully the court will allow an extension and we will all agree on a fair plan. If this blows up, both groups will lose. We have the ability to make an improvement on what currently is the most successful airline in history. I am confident that both sides will see the potential here.
 

GuppyWN

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You say that SWA WILL FURLOUGH but then you say we won't lose anything with an integration?

I don't follow.

Do you have it in writing that SWA will furlough 20% of F9 pilots?

Gup
 

StaySeated

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At least 20% WILL be furloughed, as SWA is only taking 40 out of 51 airframes.

There is a way to integrate AND offer furlough protection. You furlough out of seniority order (ie only F9 pilots get furloughed).
 

GuppyWN

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Interesting. Does that include all the way up to F9 #1 pilot?

Gup
 

OK3

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Stay seated,

I am sorry you guys are in this situation. As a professional pilot I think it sucks that management put you in this spot.

As to what you have said though I do think what we are offering is fair. The choice is not as you present it. The choice is to take what RAH, or SWA is offering, not relative seniority as SWA or RAH. I think that for the majority of your pilots SWA is a better choice. Yes there are some drawbacks, but again those are the choices you guys have. There is no ratio integrations choice, we are not offering that. Is it a good deal for a current SWA pilot to have you guys stapled, maybe. I don't see it as a windfall for me though.

I won't really gain much if it is done that way. You think that is not true but I can tell you that my schedule won't really change, or my pay. My upgrade is not going to change much, if at all. I have a great job that I am happy with, and am more afraid all this deal will screw up my company than I am excited about a few % points seniority bump. That is how I see it.
 

Cometman

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At least 20% WILL be furloughed, as SWA is only taking 40 out of 51 airframes.

There is a way to integrate AND offer furlough protection. You furlough out of seniority order (ie only F9 pilots get furloughed).
Very interesting theory. If that could be done and it would go all the way through the number one F( then somebody should make that recommendation. However, I would assume FAPA knows that. But then again, we all know what happens when we ASSUME.
 

GuppyWN

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So you guys get relative seniority at OUR payrates with OUR job security and OUR bases and for this you sacrifice yourselves in the event of a furlough.

What does SWA get that we don't/can't already have/get?

Gup
 

StaySeated

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So you guys get relative seniority at OUR payrates with OUR job security and OUR bases and for this you sacrifice yourselves in the event of a furlough.

What does SWA get that we don't/can't already have/get?

Gup
That is not at all what I am saying. I probably wasn't clear.

I believe that there is a possible deal here, a deal where everyone wins and the SWA guys "win" more than the F9 guys.

Hopefully the guys at the table, if they are allowed back to the table, can make it happen.
 

GuppyWN

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What is your solution and how does it benefit SWA pilots?

Gup
 

bluestreaking

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I would totally support initial base rights in DEN for F9 pilots, but once you bid out, then you lose them. Once a SWA pilot enters the DEN base, then they would retain their overall seniority over F9 pilots.
 

RedRum

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What is your solution and how does it benefit SWA pilots?

Gup
Guppy,

You sound exactly like the entitlement crowd at Delta when we were going through our merger. Let me guess, you are at the bottom of the seniority list at WN and are looking for a windfall at someone else's expense.

Why not just be happy with what you have? Acquiring, merging, or whatever you want to call it, with F9 isn't really going to change the quality of life you enjoy today. Why try to make it hard on someone else for your gain?

There is some middle ground to be gained here. If SWA doesn't want to taint their holy "culture," then I am sure Mr. Kelly, SWAPA and FAPA can come up with some sort of resolution that is fair to all parties involved. I realize Kelly isn't the one wanting to staple the F9 pilots, it is the SWAPA pilots; however if SWA wants to maintain their financial success, and have labor peace, you cannot staple F9 pilots. Like I was saying, there is some common ground.

It's so easy to see why we have this huge health care debate going on right now. There are so many people here that feel they are entitled to something. I guess with the economy heading downhill everone is just grabbing on to whatever they can get. It is human nature, but if you TRULY, in your heart, think that you should be ahead of a F9 pilot who has been there for 10-12 years, then you are unconvinceable. Hopefully cooler heads will prevail and you guys find the common ground.

Good luck
 

learherkjay

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At least 20% WILL be furloughed, as SWA is only taking 40 out of 51 airframes.

There is a way to integrate AND offer furlough protection. You furlough out of seniority order (ie only F9 pilots get furloughed).

From what I understand, F9 Pilot to Plane ratio is higher than SWAs. Losing 10 jets wouldn't necessarily mean furlough, it just means that with the number of pilots F9 currently has, they can be more efficient with less A/C. Something like that, I am just a pilot...
 

Cometman

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Guppy,

You sound exactly like the entitlement crowd at Delta when we were going through our merger. Let me guess, you are at the bottom of the seniority list at WN and are looking for a windfall at someone else's expense.

Why not just be happy with what you have? Acquiring, merging, or whatever you want to call it, with F9 isn't really going to change the quality of life you enjoy today. Why try to make it hard on someone else for your gain?

There is some middle ground to be gained here. If SWA doesn't want to taint their holy "culture," then I am sure Mr. Kelly, SWAPA and FAPA can come up with some sort of resolution that is fair to all parties involved. I realize Kelly isn't the one wanting to staple the F9 pilots, it is the SWAPA pilots; however if SWA wants to maintain their financial success, and have labor peace, you cannot staple F9 pilots. Like I was saying, there is some common ground.

It's so easy to see why we have this huge health care debate going on right now. There are so many people here that feel they are entitled to something. I guess with the economy heading downhill everone is just grabbing on to whatever they can get. It is human nature, but if you TRULY, in your heart, think that you should be ahead of a F9 pilot who has been there for 10-12 years, then you are unconvinceable. Hopefully cooler heads will prevail and you guys find the common ground.

Good luck
With your picture you have no crdibility. Otherwise you make a little sense. I would think about changing it if you want more respect.
 

Whine Lover

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And what's YOUR "picture"?

A strobe effect shot of a sperm flying through the dark? :)

Sorry, couldn't resist.

Anyway, an avatar is JUST an avatar, and nobody makes sense here as a general Rule of Thumb. ( I think it might also be part of the T.O.S. )

Welcome aboard.

YKM
 
Last edited:

NOZ

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At least 20% WILL be furloughed, as SWA is only taking 40 out of 51 airframes.

There is a way to integrate AND offer furlough protection. You furlough out of seniority order (ie only F9 pilots get furloughed).
[FONT=ARIAL,]From the Dallas Morning News: "Frontier’s pilot union rejected the offer from SWAPA that included job protections for ALL Frontier pilots, pay increases of up to 40 percent when Frontier pilots transitioned over to Southwest’s seniority list and other considerations."
[/FONT]
 

GuppyWN

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Guppy,

You sound exactly like the entitlement crowd at Delta when we were going through our merger. Let me guess, you are at the bottom of the seniority list at WN and are looking for a windfall at someone else's expense.

Why not just be happy with what you have? Acquiring, merging, or whatever you want to call it, with F9 isn't really going to change the quality of life you enjoy today. Why try to make it hard on someone else for your gain?

There is some middle ground to be gained here. If SWA doesn't want to taint their holy "culture," then I am sure Mr. Kelly, SWAPA and FAPA can come up with some sort of resolution that is fair to all parties involved. I realize Kelly isn't the one wanting to staple the F9 pilots, it is the SWAPA pilots; however if SWA wants to maintain their financial success, and have labor peace, you cannot staple F9 pilots. Like I was saying, there is some common ground.

It's so easy to see why we have this huge health care debate going on right now. There are so many people here that feel they are entitled to something. I guess with the economy heading downhill everone is just grabbing on to whatever they can get. It is human nature, but if you TRULY, in your heart, think that you should be ahead of a F9 pilot who has been there for 10-12 years, then you are unconvinceable. Hopefully cooler heads will prevail and you guys find the common ground.

Good luck
Bro, I'm a Captain at Southwest and have been for a couple of years. I am senior, by DOH, to about 60-70% of the F9 pilots.

Integration will not hurt me and it might even help me but I am not willing to sacrifice ONE SINGLE Southwest pilot in the process. The current SWA pilots, applied, interviewed, got hired and earned their seniority. The FAPA pilots will inherit theirs.

I'm not being closed minded about this. I'm just trying to protect my brothers that are already on property.

Gup
 

dlzav8tr

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The main probleme with a staple in F9's pilots view is that WN only wants 40 aircraft. This is almost certain to result in furloughs.
 

Vegaspilot99

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Even if there were furloughs, they need to look past that and see the big picture. What would you rather come back to?
 

Cometman

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The main probleme with a staple in F9's pilots view is that WN only wants 40 aircraft. This is almost certain to result in furloughs.

I am sure that if that was FAPA's main problem with the deal that SWAPA would have gotten them a no furlough clause except for the 50 on the street now. A little adjustment with the other benefits could absorb that cost. SWA said they were going to continue the same flying F9 was doing plus start new service that neither carrier does now.
 
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