Legacy Bashfest - Bring it on!

[LegacyIIDriver]

I can see you feel you're losing this argument since you are trying to smear me unfairly. Yes, I was improperly terminated and was subsequently cleared of any wrongdoing. Anything else you have heard is pure fantasy, so let's just move past that, shall we and stick to the issue here, okay?


From our illustrious Falcon "Captain":

Well checking back on some old DATA (not assertations or hear-say)... Embraer used to advertise the Legacy as a 3,200 NM Range aircraft (at Mach 0.74 of course) with a max ceiling of FL390 and now they are advertising it as a 3,250 NM aircraft (again, at a screaming Mach 0.74) with a max ceiling of FL410... So let's do a little math, shall we??? 3250 - 3200 = 50 NM Range Increase for the FL410 upgrade, wow looks like your "100-300 NM Range increase" was yet another TOTAL exagerration of epic proportions! I hate to say it, but my 50-75 NM range increase estimate was even generous, as the aircraft came in at the very low end of my estimation...

Any way....... The airplane will do .74M range numbers at .796M. Do it all the time, personally. If you look at it, even the PUBLISHED numbers between .80 range and .74 are a wopping 100-150NM. That's just not that much. Going back and forth across the CONUS we are always doing .795M so quit acting like everyone is running around at 0.74M. We aren't. We don't.

The airplane's *CURRENT* range is 3250NM with reserve at FL390. PERIOD. That is advertised, that is fact, that is how it has been for some time. The FL410 numbers do *NOT* exist in the AOM ANYWHERE. What you see are marketing numbers where FL410 is shown.

THIS is FL390 data here (CAN YOU READ??????) :

http://www.legacybyembraer.com/english/content/executive/payload.asp

8 pax with NBAA RESERVES = 3250 NM at FL390 .74M !
8 pax with NBAA RESERVES = 3100 NM at FL390 .80M !

A whopping 150 NM increase by slowing to .74M! Going to FL410 will probably give most if not all of that back to us. But who cares? The airplane is meets the .74M numbers at .795M. Again, EMB conservatism at its finest. Not my fault I'm just a messenger.

 

[LegacyIIDriver]

Can I get an AMEN!

Preach on Brother Falcon!

Do you people even pay attention to anything that is being said here or are you just cheering Falcon on for the sake of cheering him on?

Ignorance must be bliss...

 

[501261]

You know in the back of my head I keep thinking that WSCoDdriverII must really work for one of Embraer's competitors. I mean just imagine if WSCoDdriver where really some marketing guy in Montreal or someplace.

Kudos to him, give that man a raise! I mean think about it you don't think of a BBJ or Challenger 800 as a "real" business jet either, but I certainly won't go around thinking of those things are WSCoD's!

 

[CatYaaak]

Well, my experience is only from the J/S perspective and what people who fly it that I know personally tell me. I am told it has very narrow margins in cruise which may have contributed to the loss of control fatal accident that involved a CRJ last year.

The latest 604 crash looks to have been a design-related problem with the flight controls. Pure speculation at this point, of course, but there have been a lot of Challengers run off the end of the runway, and the CRJ is adapted from the Challenger, so...

Well then, you certainly know more about them than I do. I only flew them, so therefore lack the objectivity that comes from riding on a J/S or getting things secondhand. For instance, I myself became an expert on 747s in this very same manner....go ahead, ask me anything.

I do know that the CIA,the USAF, and NASA train U2 and TR1 pilots in CRJs, so they can develop the necessary flying skills to later deal with the 5-knot margin between low and high speed buffets while at FL700+ in their spyplanes. Most people erroneously think that the 'C' in CRJ stands for Canadair, but those of us who've flown it know it stands for "Coffin Corner". It's so bad, that if you fly it into a stall it...well...it stalls! Now, who would ever design a plane with that shortcoming? Friggin' Canadians!

As for the Challengers....well, I think it's clear you have a line into the NTSB that the rest of us don't, so I'll just have to take your word for the overrun thing.

Note to self: buy houses on stilts if it's near an extended runway centerline, and ask for "3rd floor or higher" at airport hotels, staying safely above the Hoser Peril as they go whizzing by below me like torpedoes.

 

[LegacyIIDriver]

You know in the back of my head I keep thinking that WSCoDdriverII must really work for one of Embraer's competitors. I mean just imagine if WSCoDdriver where really some marketing guy in Montreal or someplace.

Kudos to him, give that man a raise! I mean think about it you don't think of a BBJ or Challenger 800 as a "real" business jet either, but I certainly won't go around thinking of those things are WSCoD's!

Your problem is you don't think at all.

Falcon can't even keep his facts straight and continues to misquote performance data but you cheer him on any way.

Pull your head out.

FL390 Data (NOT FL410 data as Falcon asserts above):

http://www.legacybyembraer.com/english/content/executive/payload.asp

 

[CatYaaak]

Can I get an AMEN!

Preach on Brother Falcon!

"AMEN", and a HALILEUI...HALELLU....HALLIEL....um....RIGHT ON BROTHER FALCON!

 

[LegacyIIDriver]

"AMEN", and a HALILEUI...HALELLU....HALLIEL....um....RIGHT ON BROTHER FALCON!

Man I have been being baited this whole time and didn't realize it! You guys aren't even serious!

*laughs*

Good one, I've been had!

 

[banned username 2]

Man I have been being baited this whole time and didn't realize it! You guys aren't even serious!

*laughs*

Good one, I've been had!

Think so, just remember the G-550 Driver who you THOUGHT was laughing WITH you... I think the same thing applies here...

Yes, I was improperly terminated and was subsequently cleared of any wrongdoing.

So then you were rehired, right??? Oh wait, thats not how it went... Hhhmmmm... Yet another descrepancy, imagine that... And people don't get fired over a simple break-up with an FA, give me a break! Now, tell us the REAL story....

Man I have been being baited this whole time and didn't realize it! You guys aren't even serious!

*laughs*

Good one, I've been had!

The ONLY thing you've "been had" by is a Legacy Salesman!

Have you ever heard the old wise saying "Better to be silent and thought a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt." Try it out sometime, it might work wonders for you!

ask for "3rd floor or higher" at airport hotels, staying safely above the Hoser Peril as they go whizzing by below me like torpedoes.

Now THAT is funny! "Hoser Peril"!!!!

Between all the "Hoser Peril" and "WSCofD" out there, being near an airport is becoming a dangerous place to be!

 

[banned username 2]

Swift has something like 37 still on order and they are the primary customer/supplier. Embraer has some others on the side as well. I imagine the backlog is around 55 airplanes right now. At the current rate of production (about 15/year) that's more than three years worth. Granted, it's not Gulfstream-size production, but it's healthy enough.

There are about 75 in the world now. That will be about 85 by year end... It's doing fine. For minimal investment Embraer has sold nearly $2B worth of airplanes. That's not bad at all.

Interesting enough that the FAA only lists 18 WSCofD as being registered in the US...
http://162.58.35.241/acdatabase/acftinqSQL.asp?striptxt=emb135bj&mfrtxt=embraer&modeltxt=emb-135bj&cmndfind.x=0&cmndfind.y=0
See Also: http://162.58.35.241/acdatabase/mmsinqSQL.asp?mmstxt=3260306

 

[FracCapt]

Gulfstreams - 31
Falcons - 29
Challengers/GEX - 14
Hawkers - 8
Lears/Citations - too many to count
WSCoD (Legacy) - 0

So....let me get this straight....you're saying that Lears and Citations are MUCH BETTER than Gulfstreams because there were more of them there? WOOHOO!

 

[banned username 2]

So....let me get this straight....you're saying that Lears and Citations are MUCH BETTER than Gulfstreams because there were more of them there? WOOHOO!

Nope, not at all, saying that there were absolutely 0 WSCofD present at a VERY large gathering of high level people... LegacyIIDriver claims there is like 75 flying worldwide, yet not even one showed up in Augusta...

 

[501261]

Nope, not at all, saying that there were absolutely 0 WSCofD present at a VERY large gathering of high level people... LegacyIIDriver claims there is like 75 flying worldwide, yet not even one showed up in Augusta...

Well that doesn't mean much, I mean I wasn't there this week! Granted it was the first time in the last 7 years we weren't there .

 

[LegacyIIDriver]

So then you were rehired, right??? Oh wait, thats not how it went... Hhhmmmm... Yet another descrepancy, imagine that... And people don't get fired over a simple break-up with an FA, give me a break! Now, tell us the REAL story....

Hell NO I wasn't rehired. I resigned, took the money, and ran for my life. I wouldn't have gone back there for all the tea in China! Are you kidding me?

One thing I have learned in this whole mess is you can get fired for anything. Whether or not the company gets away with it is the question that is answered in arbitration. It was politics, plain and simple. I won. They lost. Move on.

Meanwhile, you have yet again avoided the issue, namely your inability to accurately quote Legacy performance data...

 

[FracCapt]

Nope, not at all, saying that there were absolutely 0 WSCofD present at a VERY large gathering of high level people... LegacyIIDriver claims there is like 75 flying worldwide, yet not even one showed up in Augusta...

Geez....you take a smartass comment I made, and give me a serious response to it....what fun are you?! Is this really Flightinfo.com??? Serious answers?! WTF, over?!

Let WSCODII dig his own grave.....he doesn't need any help from us!

 

[GVFlyer]

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Let me say that I am glad the civil tone has returned.


Now... 99.8% Reliability. Yeah, and we all know what Gulfstream reliability means. It means it works every time you fly it between MX stops...

You cannot seriously tell me that the Gulfstream fleet flies as many cycles/day/week/month as the Legacy fleet with a 99.8% reliability rate. There is just no way.

99.8% dispatch reliability is precisely what it suggests. Embraer does not report their dispatch reliability as the other manufacturers do - what is Legacy dispatch reliability and where can I find it?

As for the warranty issue... We've been over this before. Warranties are not so simple as duration alone. When you break a Gulfstream (which will most certainly be more often than a Legacy) it costs more to fix it so you had better have a fantastic warranty.

Sorry, but that is clearly absurd. After the Legacy hits the end of it's modest warranty, the Gulfstream will still be warranteed for an additional 15 years.

That aside, things either break when they are very new or very old. (This is why extended warranties are a scam.) Any bugs or gremlins will be found within the five year envelope and beyond that anything you replace is typical wear and tear for the most part. If you want a 20 year warranty by all means spend the extra $25M. Obviously not everyone in the world thinks this is important.

Using this logic (that the WSCoD never breaks), Embraer could sure trump Gulfstream by going ahead and warranting their product for, say, 25 years. Why don't they do that?

And you do don't have to spend an extra $25 mil. to get a Gulfstream and it's 20 year warranty. You can buy a G350 for a paltry $6 million and change more that you will surely recoup at resale.

Let me remind you how the G350 compares to the Legacy.

It costs $27.5 million (Legacy $21.15 Million) and offers the following features:

Planeview Cockpit

A 12 month Dispatch Reliability of 99.85% - Legacy ?

Range - Normal Cruise: 3,800 nm @ M 0.80 - Legacy 3220 nm@ M 0.74 / 2950 nm @ M 0.78

Range - High Speed Cruise: 3,100 nm @ M 0.85 - Legacy range at M 0.80 not published

Max. Cruise Speed: M 0.88 - Legacy M 0.80

Min. initial Alt: FL410 - Legacy FL370

Max. Alt: FL450 (Cabin Alt. 5980 ft.) - Legacy FL390 (8100 ft) / FL410 (8800 ft.)

T/O Dist MGTOW: 5,050 - Legacy 5,770

Ldg. Dist MLW: 3,260 @ 66,000 lb - Legacy 2683 @ 40785 lb

DOC: $1731 /hr - Legacy $1615 /hr

Max T/O wt.:70,900 lb - Legacy 49,604

Cabin Dimensions: 40'4"L X 6'2"H X 7'4" W - Legacy 43L (including cockpit) X 5'10" H X 6'11" W

Engine TBO: 12,000 hours - Legacy- not published

Max usefull load: 6,300 lb - Legacy 5,291 lb

Max. Load w/ full fuel: 2,858 lb - Legacy 1,605 lb

Most thinking people would agree that this comparison proves the adage, "You get what you pay for" when you buy a Gulfstream. It's clear that when you stand the two airplanes side by side, the Legacy's lackluster performance and squatty cabin proves the G350 is a real bargain and that's before you factor in the Legacy's third world fit and finish.

Why would anyone buy a Legacy when if you figure in retained value at resale, you could have a Gulfstream for the same price?

But a minor outstation MX workover is nothing compared to what you'd have to do to get a Gulfstream or Falcon to take that kind of pounding every day. They wouldn't hold up--it's beyond their design parameters, i.e. they were never expected to do high cyclic rate operations.

The Gulfstream G350/G450 and G500/G550 are in service and reporting 99.85% and 99.80% dispatch reliability respectively.

The Legacy most definitely is an option for someone who wants a big airplane but doesn't need 5000-6000NM range and enjoys low costs and high reliability. It fits the mission.

A big airplane that's 69% the size of a G350 yet costs 93.2% as much to operate. A big airplane with an unknown and unattainable dispatch reliability rating. A "big airplane" in which only Verne Troyer (Miny Me) could stand erect.

I told you how the Gulfstream is supported and how it is rated number one in customer support by it's users (and by the major trade magazines). What is the dispatch reliability of the Legacy (I want specifics) and how many and where are the Legacy domestic and international service centers?

Does Legacy have a jet on standby to fly parts to customers who are AOG? And by the way, your little apochryphal anecdote about the G550 captain who could not find a lens is absurd - if Gulfstream does not have a part in inventory, they will pull it off an in-production aircraft coming down the production line, put it on the G100 Airborne Product Support airplane and fly it to you.

GV










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