Legacy Bashfest - Bring it on!

[banned username 2]

Let me say that I am glad the civil tone has returned.

Now... 99.8% Reliability. Yeah, and we all know what Gulfstream reliability means. It means it works every time you fly it between MX stops....

You cannot seriously tell me that the Gulfstream fleet flies as many cycles/day/week/month as the Legacy fleet with a 99.8% reliability rate. There is just no way.

As for the warranty issue... We've been over this before. Warranties are not so simple as duration alone. When you break a Gulfstream (which will most certainly be more often than a Legacy) it costs more to fix it so you had better have a fantastic warranty.

Your ignorance of Corporate Aircraft is blatently obvious... I think you should prepare for a spanking from GVFlyer, I'm sure he'll be back shortly to straighten you out on this...

As FC said, I realize the changes drop dramatically above FL250 in terms of performance boost, but I still believe there will be an additional 100-300NM range to be gained by going to FL410 from FL390.

Spoken like someone who hasn't spent much/any time up high... If you got 50-75NM range increase I would be very surprised...

I figured the G-550 AOG because of the wingtip lens being broken was BS... As with most stuff that has been said to try and elevate the WSCofD...

 

[LegacyIIDriver]

Your ignorance of Corporate Aircraft is blatently obvious... I think you should prepare for a spanking from GVFlyer, I'm sure he'll be back shortly to straighten you out on this...

Spoken like someone who hasn't spent much/any time up high... If you got 50-75NM range increase I would be very surprised...

I figured the G-550 AOG because of the wingtip lens being broken was BS... As with most stuff that has been said to try and elevate the WSCofD...

Nope. It happened. They taxied him into a fence post.

I asked the pilot if Gulfstream had a replacement lens for him and he said, "Of course not!" Kinda' sarcastic (but still smiling and being nice toward me). He was clearly implying that Gulfstream's support network isn't as good as you people claim. I took a picture of it with my digital from long range but you can't really tell the lens is missing so you'll probably have to take my word for it...

Left wing...bent metal broken glass, no replacement parts for it. Looked like it would have been easy to fix. Ask around. There aren't that many G-550s out there, yet.

As for the range increase, I can only tell you what we are hearing and what I am guessing with just some short and simple calculations on fuel burn. The 100NM in my 100-300 estimate isn't far from your 75NM either way and depends upon weight among other factors.

 

[CatYaaak]

As for routine MX in the RJ fleet, of course they're doing MX at night. They're wearing out tries and such rapidly in that environment. But a minor outstation MX workover is nothing compared to what you'd have to do to get a Gulfstream or Falcon to take that kind of pounding every day. They wouldn't hold up--it's beyond their design parameters, i.e. they were never expected to do high cyclic rate operations.

The Legacy most definitely is an option for someone who wants a big airplane but doesn't need 5000-6000NM range and enjoys low costs and high reliability. It fits the mission.

The thing is, nobody here is trying to sell Falcons and Gulfstreams to regional airlines, and you keep insisting that Falcons and Gulfstreams and Challengers break all the time, unable to fulfill their CORPORATE missions. You've given nothing in terms of proof, just assertions. In your latest example, however, I notice you omitted Challengers in your comparison which focused on airline ops, which is no suprise.

But unfortunately for you and your selective comparisons, those of us not living on Mars and thus completely cut off from planet Earth and it's aviation developments have noticed there's a very popular something called a CRJ that's been flying about the regional airline world in great numbers for the last decade or thereabouts...so in fact there IS a corporate-derived aircraft doing exactly what you say can't be done, and it's been doing it longer than ERJs.

I'm very curious as to how you'll wrap your head around that (but oh, do I know by now the rationalizations are on their way like pellets from a shotgun!)

Now I can sit here all day long telling everyone they should buy Challengers because "nothing ever breaks on CRJs they do airline ops we just replaced the tires and such...really.". People can ask me to prove it's better, and I'll just keep repeating the same thing over and over....It doesnt break, mx techs for it are really just tire-changers, its way better than yours even though I don't know anything about yours.

When you challenge this with your WSCoD, I'll just toss in my trump card...."Not only can nothing stand up to your abuse like an airline-proven Challenger, but adults can stand up in it without wrenching their necks."

On performance issues, I'll stick with the Falcon.

 

[LegacyIIDriver]

I am saying that the CORPORATE mission that the Legacy fulfills is one the Falcon and Gulfstream could never do. It's more demanding and requires more reliability than those airplanes can manage. Doing the long-haul, one-cycle leg mission like Gulfstream and Falcon is not as hard as doing six legs a day six days a week.

When you challenge this with your WSCoD, I'll just toss in my trump card...."Not only can nothing stand up to your abuse like an airline-proven Challenger, but adults can stand up in it without wrenching their necks."

I can't stand up in it and I'm an adult. That's a lame argument any way. The people who are buying the ERJ have the option for a standup cabin section and they always turn it down. It's just not that important. If you want a standup cabin buy a 737BJ.

If you ask me, the CRJ is junk, BTW. It certainly doesn't have the reliability of the ERJ fleet. It also likes to flip upside down and do other crazy stuff at high altitudes.

I know a guy who is an IP on the CRJ for one of the large regionals that fly it and he says it is borderline unairworthy. I realize it's an exaggeration, but I don't see ERJs crashing left and right. They are also much more reliable and cost less to acquire, fly, and maintain than a CRJ.

If the CRJ were so superior to the ERJ then there wouldn't be over 900 ERJs flying worldwide without a fatality.

The Challenger isn't all that either. One of the guys who recently bought a Legacy told a group of us their Challenger cost them more than $500,000 in unscheduled maintenance last year. They dumped it for the 135BJ. I also don't see ERJs plowing off runway ends with jammed flight controls...

 

[Dangerkitty]

Dude, the CRJ is junk. It certainly doesn't have the reliability of the ERJ fleet. It also likes to flip upside down and do other crazy stuff at high altitudes.

I know a guy who is an IP on the CRJ for one of the large regionals that fly it and he says it is borderline unairworthy. I realize it's an exaggeration, but I don't see ERJs crashing left and right. They are also much more reliable and cost less to acquire, fly, and maintain than a CRJ.

If the CRJ were so superior to the ERJ then there wouldn't be over 900 ERJs flying worldwide without a fatality.

The Challenger isn't all that either. One of the guys who recently bought a Legacy told a group of us their Challenger cost them more than $500,000 in unscheduled maintenance last year. They dumped it for the 135BJ.

OK, OK. Here is where I call BS. I have got almost 1500 hours in the EMB-145. The airplane is an mediocre aircraft at best and a POS in my opinion. The ERJ has only been flying since 1996. Thats not alot of time to prove itself. The only times I have been scared $hitless with reference to the quality of the airframe have been when I was flying the EMB-145. Tail flutter comes to mind.

To say that the ERJ is by far a better aircraft then the CRJ is absolute lunacy.

Why in the hell are you so sensitive when someone criticizes your aircraft? Hell I am a Lear 60 Captain and while I enjoy flying it I understand that it has its faults. So much so that I have been on the phone with Bombardier in the past and have had extensive meetings with their reps to see if they could clear some of them up.

Dude, just get back in your Legacy and let it rest already!!

 

[LegacyIIDriver]

OK, OK. Here is where I call BS. I have got almost 1500 hours in the EMB-145. The airplane is an mediocre aircraft at best and a POS in my opinion. The ERJ has only been flying since 1996. Thats not alot of time to prove itself. The only times I have been scared $hitless with reference to the quality of the airframe have been when I was flying the EMB-145. Tail flutter comes to mind.

Tail flutter?????? Are you exceeding limitations on a regular basis? I have never had anything even remotely approaching flutter in four years of RJ/Legacy flying.

It has been flying for ten years and that isn't long enough to prove itself? I think it has already proven itself safer than the CRJ.

Why in the hell are you so sensitive when someone criticizes your aircraft?

It's just a (mostly) friendly discussion. I enjoy chatting and that's really all that is going on. I thought that was what this board was for...

 

[Dangerkitty]

Tail flutter?????? Are you exceeding limitations on a regular basis? I have never had anything even remotely approaching flutter in four years of RJ/Legacy flying.

It has been flying for ten years and that isn't long enough to prove itself? I think it has already proven itself safer than the CRJ.





It's just a (mostly) friendly discussion. I enjoy chatting and that's really all that is going on. I thought that was what this board was for...

LD,

In the early days of the EMB-145 Tail Flutter was a regular problem. If any Embraer rep tells you it wasn't then they are lying. I had it happen to me more than once and each time it scarred the $hit out of me.

 

[Dangerkitty]

It has been flying for ten years and that isn't long enough to prove itself? I think it has already proven itself safer than the CRJ.

OK, how so?

 

[LegacyIIDriver]

LD,

In the early days of the EMB-145 Tail Flutter was a regular problem. If any Embraer rep tells you it wasn't then they are lying. I had it happen to me more than once and each time it scarred the $hit out of me.

Well I have only been flying it since 2000, but I have never had any type of structural or flight control problem with it. I will take your word for the flutter issue since I have never seen it. I think whatever the problem was it has clearly been fixed.

As for how it is safer than the CRJ... I forget what the fleet flight time total is up to now, but it's at least 10 million hours without a fatality. CRJs and 604s have already had some.

 

[Dangerkitty]

As for how it is safer than the CRJ... I forget what the fleet flight time total is up to now, but it's at least 10 million hours without a fatality. CRJs and 604s have already had some.

Are those problems inherent to the aircraft or could it be pilot error? Remember, you stated that the CRJ was/is junk.

 

[CatYaaak]

I am saying that the CORPORATE mission that the Legacy fulfills is one the Falcon and Gulfstream could never do. It's more demanding and requires more reliability than those airplanes can manage. Doing the long-haul, one-cycle leg mission like Gulfstream and Falcon is not as hard as doing six legs a day six days a week.

I can't stand up in it and I'm an adult. That's a lame argument any way. The people who are buying the ERJ have the option for a standup cabin section and they always turn it down. It's just not that important. If you want a standup cabin buy a 737BJ.

If you ask me, the CRJ is junk, BTW. It certainly doesn't have the reliability of the ERJ fleet. It also likes to flip upside down and do other crazy stuff at high altitudes.

I know a guy who is an IP on the CRJ for one of the large regionals that fly it and he says it is borderline unairworthy. I realize it's an exaggeration, but I don't see ERJs crashing left and right. They are also much more reliable and cost less to acquire, fly, and maintain than a CRJ.

If the CRJ were so superior to the ERJ then there wouldn't be over 900 ERJs flying worldwide without a fatality.

The Challenger isn't all that either. One of the guys who recently bought a Legacy told a group of us their Challenger cost them more than $500,000 in unscheduled maintenance last year. They dumped it for the 135BJ. I also don't see ERJs plowing off runway ends with jammed flight controls...

Beer has killed too many brain cells during my life or something, because I'm having a hard time following just exactly what this WSCoD's corporate mission is. Is it now six legs a day, six days a week? And as you've stated numerous times before, 3200 mile segments?

This means the WSCoD can fly 19,200 nm in a day, averaging 835kts over 23 hours (I figured only 10 minutes per turn, since I read somewhere nothing can turn as fast as them) so by the end of their 6-day week the short-statured, iron-bottomed execs it carries have traveled over 115,000nm or the equivalent of 4.7 times around the globe......without breaking or tail flutter!

Wow. Indeed, that IS truly amazing. No wonder the SCoD gets the "Whistling" descriptor! Furthermore, it leaves me almost breathless to think of how much more it could do if it only didn't have to stop on that 7th day to have it's tires changed. Btw, these 36-segment per week companies....where are they again, and do they adhere to recommended duty time limits?

And I've rethought what you've said about stand-up cabins and I couldnt agree more.....those highly unusual, 6' tall freaks of nature should just either sit for 3200nm, or buy a BBJ. Every 6 hours, who needs more than a 10-minute leg stretch while you're getting gas anyway? Just like the whales, I'm sick and tired of coddling the overlarge!

But jeez man, why didn't you impart your knowledge and warn me about Challengers and CRJs before I foolishly went out and spent a few thousand hours in them? Thanks to you, I now realize I'm lucky to be alive! Now that you mention it, I do recall thinking at the time all the flipping and spinning and crazy death-diving stuff going on up there seemed a little weird. Whew, and all this time I thought it was just me.

Now excuse me, I have to go buy a big, sturdy umbrella. It's sunny outside, but you never know when it might start raining Bombardier products.

 

[LegacyIIDriver]

Are those problems inherent to the aircraft or could it be pilot error? Remember, you stated that the CRJ was/is junk.

Well, my experience is only from the J/S perspective and what people who fly it that I know personally tell me. I am told it has very narrow margins in cruise which may have contributed to the loss of control fatal accident that involved a CRJ last year.

The latest 604 crash looks to have been a design-related problem with the flight controls. Pure speculation at this point, of course, but there have been a lot of Challengers run off the end of the runway, and the CRJ is adapted from the Challenger, so...

 

[LegacyIIDriver]

Beer has killed too many brain cells during my life or something, because I'm having a hard time following just exactly what this WSCoD's corporate mission is. Is it now six legs a day, six days a week? And as you've stated numerous times before, 3200 mile segments?

The bulk of the fleet is doing mult-hop days. Segment length depends on the mission. It's nice to know that a Legacy is equally adept at being cycled hard for six or more legs a day...or flown on a nice and comfy 3200NM segment. Take your pick. I do both depending on what the boss needs. I logged 19 1/2 hours over two days last month. I was tired, but the jet was ready for more.

Intel, Conoco-Philips, Swift, and Flight Options all cycle their jets multiple times per day, every day. Other companies use them for longer stuff with fewer cycles. It will do either.

 

[banned username 2]

I am saying that the CORPORATE mission that the Legacy fulfills is one the Falcon and Gulfstream could never do. It's more demanding and requires more reliability than those airplanes can manage. Doing the long-haul, one-cycle leg mission like Gulfstream and Falcon is not as hard as doing six legs a day six days a week.

OK, I'm sorry to make this personal, but you are in fact an idiot... Do you know ANYTHING about Corporate ops, c'mon, you are a self-admitted "Wrongfully Terminated RJ Captain"? (If anyone wants to read his saga, just do a search for "Skull-One") You are the one who earlier in this thread said the average stage length of a G-V mission was only something like 2.8 hours (I don't remember the last number), but now you are saying the only thing it ever does is fly 8+ hour missions... The constant contradictions of yourself are amusing at best...

Our 2 Falcon 900EX's both did over 1,100 flight hours EACH last year, one had 587 cycles the other 563, you do the math there genius...

Our Falcon 50EX's all did over 700 hours each and had average cycles of around 430 or so...

I know a guy who is an IP on the CRJ for one of the large regionals that fly it and he says it is borderline unairworthy. I realize it's an exaggeration, but I don't see ERJs crashing left and right. They are also much more reliable and cost less to acquire, fly, and maintain than a CRJ.

Ah yes, more "He said, she said" and generalities... Still no hard data of any sort to back up ANY claims you have attempted to make...

As for the range increase, I can only tell you what we are hearing and what I am guessing with just some short and simple calculations on fuel burn. The 100NM in my 100-300 estimate isn't far from your 75NM either way and depends upon weight among other factors.

Well checking back on some old DATA (not assertations or hear-say)... Embraer used to advertise the Legacy as a 3,200 NM Range aircraft (at Mach 0.74 of course) with a max ceiling of FL390 and now they are advertising it as a 3,250 NM aircraft (again, at a screaming Mach 0.74) with a max ceiling of FL410... So let's do a little math, shall we??? 3250 - 3200 = 50 NM Range Increase for the FL410 upgrade, wow looks like your "100-300 NM Range increase" was yet another TOTAL exagerration of epic proportions! I hate to say it, but my 50-75 NM range increase estimate was even generous, as the aircraft came in at the very low end of my estimation...

SKULL-ONE (i.e. LegacyDriver, LegacyIIDriver, vraciu and what every other screen names you have come up with)... Listen up, and listen closely... You have made absolutely no progress here... You haven't convinced anyone of anything (except that you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about)... Even if someone came to this thread thinking neutral about the Legacy, it is very obvious they would leave the thread with a negative impression of the airplane... The funny part is YOU started this thread looking for a fight, you found it, had your a$$ handed to you on so many occasions I lost track long ago, and you still haven't figured it out... There have been SEVERAL EMB-135/145 pilots come to this thread and directly STATE that the EMB is a POS aircraft and they were not impressed with it in the least bit... The other irony is if you work for Swift or Embraer and were trying to pump the product, you did exactly the opposite, and your lack of credibility and knowledge has been demonstrated repeatedly... Virtually none of the members on this board are owners of an aircraft in this price range, but a LOT of us certainly have a say and a hand on the steering wheel when it comes time for aircraft aquisitions... All you have done is pretty much make sure that the WSCofD doesn't appear in any proposals for some CEO's out there...

Oh, and as for this:

I asked the pilot if Gulfstream had a replacement lens for him and he said, "Of course not!" Kinda' sarcastic (but still smiling and being nice toward me).

He wasn't "smiling" at you, he was trying not to laugh when he saw what you were flying... He read this thread...

Oh, another thing... I was in Augusta, GA this weekend for the Masters (you know, that little golf game in Georgia), I took a little "Ramp Survey", let's have a look shall we?

Gulfstreams - 31
Falcons - 29
Challengers/GEX - 14
Hawkers - 8
Lears/Citations - too many to count
WSCoD (Legacy) - 0

I think those numbers tell the tale of what the decision makers think of your "RJ"... Get over it, it's just a fancy RJ... And that's OK, it pays your bills and THAT is really what matters, but please, tell you neighbors you fly the Space Shuttle, cuz we just aren't buying it... You can put all the lipstick on that pig you want, but we all know bacon when we smell it...

Enough already, you are losing more credibility with every post...

 

[501261]

OK, I'm sorry to make this personal, but you are in fact an idiot... Do you know ANYTHING about Corporate ops, c'mon, you are a self-admitted "Wrongfully Terminated RJ Captain"? (If anyone wants to read his saga, just do a search for "Skull-One") You are the one who earlier in this thread said the average stage length of a G-V mission was only something like 2.8 hours (I don't remember the last number), but now you are saying the only thing it ever does is fly 8+ hour missions... The constant contradictions of yourself are amusing at best...

Our 2 Falcon 900EX's both did over 1,100 flight hours EACH last year, one had 587 cycles the other 563, you do the math there genius...

Our Falcon 50EX's all did over 700 hours each and had average cycles of around 430 or so...



Ah yes, more "He said, she said" and generalities... Still no hard data of any sort to back up ANY claims you have attempted to make...

Well checking back on some old DATA (not assertations or hear-say)... Embraer used to advertise the Legacy as a 3,200 NM Range aircraft (at Mach 0.74 of course) with a max ceiling of FL390 and now they are advertising it as a 3,250 NM aircraft (again, at a screaming Mach 0.74) with a max ceiling of FL410... So let's do a little math, shall we??? 3250 - 3200 = 50 NM Range Increase for the FL410 upgrade, wow looks like your "100-300 NM Range increase" was yet another TOTAL exagerration of epic proportions! I hate to say it, but my 50-75 NM range increase estimate was even generous, as the aircraft came in at the very low end of my estimation...

SKULL-ONE (i.e. LegacyDriver, LegacyIIDriver, vraciu and what every other screen names you have come up with)... Listen up, and listen closely... You have made absolutely no progress here... You haven't convinced anyone of anything (except that you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about)... Even if someone came to this thread thinking neutral about the Legacy, it is very obvious they would leave the thread with a negative impression of the airplane... The funny part is YOU started this thread looking for a fight, you found it, had your a$$ handed to you on so many occasions I lost track long ago, and you still haven't figured it out... There have been SEVERAL EMB-135/145 pilots come to this thread and directly STATE that the EMB is a POS aircraft and they were not impressed with it in the least bit... The other irony is if you work for Swift or Embraer and were trying to pump the product, you did exactly the opposite, and your lack of credibility and knowledge has been demonstrated repeatedly... Virtually none of the members on this board are owners of an aircraft in this price range, but a LOT of us certainly have a say and a hand on the steering wheel when it comes time for aircraft aquisitions... All you have done is pretty much make sure that the WSCofD doesn't appear in any proposals for some CEO's out there...

Oh, and as for this:

He wasn't "smiling" at you, he was trying not to laugh when he saw what you were flying... He read this thread...

Oh, another thing... I was in Augusta, GA this weekend for the Masters (you know, that little golf game in Georgia), I took a little "Ramp Survey", let's have a look shall we?

Gulfstreams - 31
Falcons - 29
Challengers/GEX - 14
Hawkers - 8
Lears/Citations - too many to count
WSCoD (Legacy) - 0

I think those numbers tell the tale of what the decision makers think of your "RJ"... Get over it, it's just a fancy RJ... And that's OK, it pays your bills and THAT is really what matters, but please, tell you neighbors you fly the Space Shuttle, cuz we just aren't buying it... You can put all the lipstick on that pig you want, but we all know bacon when we smell it...

Enough already, you are losing more credibility with every post...

Can I get an AMEN!

Preach on Brother Falcon!