Legacy Bashfest - Bring it on!

[LegacyDriver]

I think we have hijacked the other ("Flying to Hawaii") thread enough.

First of all, the Legacy competes with many different airplanes on different levels and in different areas. It is superior to all comers in terms of reliability and I will stack it up against any airplane in that category. Let's go toe to toe EMB vs G-String for 100 hours and see who breaks first. (Hint: it won't be a plane made in Brazil.)

Range: I flew a Legacy 8 hours from liftoff to touchdown and was not even remotely concerned about fuel when I landed.

As for the Gulfstream and ceiling, you can't go straight to 510 (or even 410) at max gross--I can go right to 390 now (and 410 when I get my new software for pressurization).

You burn 1100 a side you said at 510. I doubt you will be doing .84 with that kind of fuel flow. I also shudder to think of your burn lower while you step climb to 410 and THEN 510. Meanwhile, when I get to go to 410 (direct!) I imagine my burn will be less than 900 lbs/side at .80M. As it is now I am burning 1140/side at 350(!) And well less than 1100 at 390. As stated, this plane is efficient at any altitude.

Resale value is still an unanswered question. Time will tell. However, Gulfstream's trade-in program accounts for the bulk of its maintained value. They just want to get you on the hook for 45 million (for another plane) so they will give you money for your junked out peachjet. If EMB does the same the value for the Legacy will stay relatively high.

The Gulfstream is what it is. It is a good airplane. When Clay Lacy was setting all those records in th IV-SP I admit to being mesmerized. But just like anything it has its limitations and bad points.

One must remember that the price differential is unjustified. Either the G is overpriced or the EMB is under priced. The Gulfstream is NOT twice the airplane the Legacy is. Gulfstream is an ego stroker just like Harley Davidson (there are better products that cost less) and customers are paying a premium for a brand name. That to me is stupid (but so is a hotel room for five grand a night and there are those who pay for such things).

 

[Diesel]

I think GV pretty much shut you down in the last thread.

Although it goes to show how amazing his knowledge really is.

I think a better comparison would be a Legacy vs. Citation X

Enjoy the EVS system...... oh wait nevermind.

 

[LegacyDriver]

He obviously has not shut me down unless one believes fantasy numbers. The man can't even get the stats on his own airplane right. I can hardly expect him to get 'em right on mine.

 

[xrated]

Hey LegacyDriver,

Still trying to figure out if your initials are C.Y.?

 

[Diesel]

Trust me I think most of his stat's are right on. I've checked with other Gwhiz drivers and they say the guy is in the know.

He's the one that holds some records in the G whiz.

Also it sounds like he's done some testing of the aircraft so I'd say he knows it inside and out.

Of course the only good thing to come from Brazil is porn and that bbq steakhouse meat.

 

[G100driver]

He obviously has not shut me down unless one believes fantasy numbers. The man can't even get the stats on his own airplane right. I can hardly expect him to get 'em right on mine.

Face it dude ... you and your NAFTA jet got spanked.

The Legacy is not a bad airplane, but it is not a top of the line biz jet, nor will it be, nor does it pretend to be so. It is for the guy that does not want the best, doesn't mind getting there a little later, or mind being slightly more fatigued. He also does not want to pay as much either. God Bless him and the like, though, for investing in aviation and giving all of us jobs.

PS, what G-V were you talking about that cannot go to FL410 at MTOW? The one with one engine?

 

[capt_zman]

Funny, I don't see any Collier Trophy's in Brazil.

 

[LegacyDriver]

G100Driver I salute you for at least acknowledging the Legacy's good qualities. It seems here that the Peachjet community sees an obligation to run my airplane down. As I have said, Gulfstreams are good airplanes but the Legacy is better in some and comparable in most.

( PS - The 410 climb was actually referring to the IV. I do not recall if the V goes direct or not. The IV is where most of this discussion was aimed any way I thought. The Legacy will still outcycle a V.)

As we showed with the F-16 the number of cycles is more stressful than time or amount under a higher laod. A 9-G turn for one hour is less stressful than multiple pulls at a lesser load (say 7-Gs) for 5 seconds apiece. Think of the old paperclip analogy.

Thus it can be argued that the Legacy is one of the STRONGEST biz jet fuselages in the business. 10 cycles to 250 or 350 are more stressful than one to 410 or 510. (You get the idea.)

 

[sleepy]

G100Driver I salute you for at least acknowledging the Legacy's good qualities. It seems here that the Peachjet community sees an obligation to run my airplane down. As I have said, Gulfstreams are good airplanes but the Legacy is better in some and comparable in most.

( PS - The 410 climb was actually referring to the IV. I do not recall if the V goes direct or not. The IV is where most of this discussion was aimed any way I thought. The Legacy will still outcycle a V.)

As we showed with the F-16 the number of cycles is more stressful than time or amount under a higher laod. A 9-G turn for one hour is less stressful than multiple pulls at a lesser load (say 7-Gs) for 5 seconds apiece. Think of the old paperclip analogy.

Thus it can be argued that the Legacy is one of the STRONGEST biz jet fuselages in the business. 10 cycles to 250 or 350 are more stressful than one to 410 or 510. (You get the idea.)

Are you a Legacy salesman? If not, then why do you care so much?

 

[cl65capt]

This guy is almost as bad as lowecur when it comes to the mighty EMB.

 

[LegacyDriver]

I care because I like the airplane. It is a good bird and I grow weary of the unwarranted bashing.

 

[satpak77]

Legacy Bashfest - Bring it on!

dude no one could give a sh1t

 

[AA717driver]

I think it's the David Clark's pinching his head...

Spec page for the G350(basically the old GIV) shows a initial climb to FL410.

GV knows his $h!t. Sorry.TC

 

[con-pilot]

I don't think I have read so much crap in my life. Now if you want to start an argument lets go, say Falcon 900EX EAsy and G-IVSP or what ever they are called now.

But to compare a remade comuter airliner to the class of aircraft of the G-V, Gobal Express, G-IVSP and the Falcon 900EX EAsy is just too funny to take serious.

Jezz, this guy sounds like the old Lear Jet guys.

Let me tell something partner, it's not what you fly, it's what you get paid.

When I made 727 Captain I went into the bathroom and dropped my pants to see just much bigger my mustintouchines got. Well guess what, my balls did not get any bigger, nor anything else down there.

Get a life.

 

[suen1843]

LegacyDriver needs to get back under the porch with the rest of the pups. He's not ready to run with the big dogs.

 

[mmmdonut]

I'm sorry but the Jetstar beats em all!!!!!!!!!

 

[sleepy]

I care because I like the airplane. It is a good bird and I grow weary of the unwarranted bashing.

Well, it is great that you love your aircraft. I like mine too, but I really doubt if anyone on here cares what I think about the Falcon. Most of us have little say in what we fly anyway.

Maybe you should go to work for EMB as a Legacy demo pilot, it looks like you are already on the cool-aid.

 

[banned username 2]

The Legacy will still outcycle a V

Of course it will, because it needs nearly 3 fuel stops for every one fuel stop the G-V needs... Those cycles will add up! And yes, the G-450 (improved G-IVsp) will go directly to FL410 at MGTOW and will go 1,350 NM further (Nearly 3 hours longer at Mach 0.80) than the Legacy (while using less runway)... The G-550 will also go directly to FL410 at MGTOW and go over 3,750 NM further than the Legacy (thats over 8.1 hours longer!)...

The G-450 needs 5,450 ft of runway to go 4,350 NM at Mach 0.80
The Legacy needs 5,700 ft of runway to go 3,000 NM at Mach 0.80
The G-550 needs 5,910 ft of runway to go 6,750 NM at Mach 0.80

Range: I flew a Legacy 8 hours from liftoff to touchdown and was not even remotely concerned about fuel when I landed.

According to the Embraer web site, at Mach 0.74 the Legacy can go 8:02 and then you are at NBAA Mins on fuel... So at 8 hours, you should have been concerned about fuel... Not to mention that the G-450 could have done the same 3,200 NM leg at Mach 0.85 (6+56 hours) or the G-550 could have done it at Mach 0.87 (6+45 hours)... So when your passengers are twidling their thumbs for an extra 1+17, the competition is already at the meeting selling the customer their product... But hey, you saved a few million on the plane, what's it matter if you lose a $500 million contract?

Both of the Gulfstreams would have needed less than 5,000 ft of runway to complete that 3,200 NM leg (the G-550 probably would have been closer to 4,000 ft runway required!), whereas the Legacy would have needed 5,700 ft... How much further would the passengers have to drive to get to their Legacy parked at an airport with a 5,700 ft runway vs. the G's who are at airports with 5,000 ft? A LOT of airports we utilize have max runway lengths of 5,000 ft... Anytime I am somewhere with more runway than that, it feels like a luxury!

Thus it can be argued that the Legacy is one of the STRONGEST biz jet fuselages in the business.

I have never seen a picture of a Gulfstream or Falcon with its fuselage broken and it's tail dragging on the ground... But I have seen a picture of an EMB-Jet with that problem... Strong, eh? Give me a break...

On the other hand, the EMB seems to make a pretty good airliner... The Gulfstream and Falcons would make terrible airliners... Purpose built aircraft should remain in the catagory they were built for... You don't see many BBJ's around, mainly because it makes for a pretty poor Corporate jet, just like you don't see any G-550's parked at Gate G6 at ORD...

Oh and as far as GVFlyer... The guy knows his sh!t... No doubt about it...

 

[ukcats]

Jungle Jet

Used to work for the fractionals. Rode a lot of airlines to and fro. The Jungle Jet was the loudest, roughest riding jet I have ever been on. Don't forget the afformentioned structure problems. I know of two that "broke" (ROA/DFW). I'd rather drive than ride that piece of crap again.

 

[flyer172r]

This kind of personal insulting belongs in the non-aviation related chat section

 

[fokkerjet]

On the other hand, the EMB seems to make a pretty good airliner... The Gulfstream and Falcons would make terrible airliners... Purpose built aircraft should remain in the catagory they were built for... You don't see many BBJ's around, mainly because it makes for a pretty poor Corporate jet, just like you don't see any G-550's parked at Gate G6 at ORD...
QUOTE]

I remember a quote from Airbus claiming that the resale value of their A319CJ would be better than Boeing's BBJ because when Boeing mated the -800 wing onto the -700 fuselage, it created an unique aircraft type that would limit its potential resale customer base to only other corporate operators (or freight), thus lowering its resale value. Airbus, on the other hand, basically just added extra fuel tanks to a "stock" A319, giving CJ customers a larger resale market (and price) because all you had to do was remove the extra fuel tanks and you could sell the aircraft to an airline. With the Legacy, you have the same problem as the BBJ.......who's going to want this thing when it comes time to sell it? The resale market for the Legacy will probably be pretty small to begin with, then when FLOPs and Swift start unloading theirs, they will flood the market, driving the price down even further.

Anybody remember the G-159C's? GI's that were stretched and operated as 36 passenger commuter planes for Chaparrel Airlines. Also, a few straight GI's were modified into 24 passenger commuter planes over in Europe.

 

[LegacyDriver]

LegacyDriver needs to get back under the porch with the rest of the pups. He's not ready to run with the big dogs.

Why? Because I can't hurl insults as well as the mob here or because I am dealing with people who cannot follow an argument?

The Legacy compares with lots of airplanes in different ways. As far as Gulfstreams go, this airplane will do the average Gulfstream mission for a fraction of the cost. It has a large cabin and is extremely reliable. Graet so a 6' + guy can't stand up completely straight big deal. You are not standing that long any way.

This is a good ride. You will not get this much bang for your buck with any other airplane.

End of argument unless you just can't read.

 

[Heavy Set]

dude no one could give a sh1t

Hey dude, I give a $hit. This is an information/opinion board. If he wants to discuss the Legacy he is free to do so (he clearly is proud of his aircraft).

You, on the other hand, are free to not read the post and not respond. I am reading the post because I am interested in the aircraft.

Merry Christmas.

 

[LegacyDriver]

Oh one more thing--last I checked RJs weren't plummeting into the ground on a weekly basis. Considering their much higher exposure to risk (takeoffs and landings) I would suggest that a reworked airliner is going to go a long way toward extending one's lifespan (or rather not ending it prematurely).

 

[banned username 2]

This is a good ride. You will not get this much bang for your buck with any other airplane.

End of argument unless you just can't read.

So you try to start an argument, have your hat handed to you based on FACTS (not insults) and now try to convince yourself that you were right in the first place?

Your argument is as rediculous as saying "Why should airlines buy anything else but EMB's? And EMB can do everything a 747 can do for a LOT less money..."

The Legacy is an RJ in slightly different clothes, they'll sell some (just like Boeing sold some BBJ's) but they certainly aren't going to put a dent in any market share of any competitors...

Again, I posted all facts (from Embraer's and Gulfstream's web sites)... I didn't see you counter any of them, you are trying to focus on your self-preceived personal attacks... Which I don't really see...

When you come looking for a fight (i.e. starting this thread) you best be prepared for battle...

 

[banned username 2]

Oh one more thing--last I checked RJs weren't plummeting into the ground on a weekly basis. Considering their much higher exposure to risk (takeoffs and landings) I would suggest that a reworked airliner is going to go a long way toward extending one's lifespan (or rather not ending it prematurely).

Oh give me a break... Lets get back to that EMB (or actually 2 EMB's) that the tails broke off of??? What was that about "strong"???

 

[LegacyDriver]

I could have easily flown over 9 hours. The airplane performs better than the book. I am betting the website stats are for the Legacy I / Shuttle. Get with the program. The plane is better than that.

As for strength, the design load was exceeded by a tremendous margin and the gear held. A Gulfstream woulda poked the struts right through the wing (if they did not snap first). Nobody killed, plane taxied off runway under its own power. This is proof of the airplane's toughness. There isn't an airplane in the corporate world I can think of that would survive a smacking like that!

 

[satpak77]

dude Legacy kicks azz and Gulfstream sucks, and the entire aviation industry knows that

now please go away

 

[NJAFracPilot]

This kind of personal insulting belongs in the non-aviation related chat section

Sit down and shut-up little boy, your vote will count when you've earned it. The captains want to talk.

As far as Gulfstreams go, this airplane will do the average Gulfstream mission for a fraction of the cost

Listen-up, dip$hit. You missed the part where GV pointed out that the GV was half again bigger than the Legacy and only cost less than 20% more to operate. Then if you add in the fact that the Gulfstreams are actually worth something on the used market - it may actually be cheaper to fly the Gulfstream then the Brazilian pig.

Someday, I'd like to fly the Gulfstream. I think it's the best corporate jet made. If I had to fly the Legacy, I'd think I'd been demoted and I know I'd take a pay cut.

GV knows his stuff. So does FalconCaptain. Both of them have posted a lot of verifiable facts, all you've posted is your sorry-a$$ opinion.

Like I said before: Weak, dude, really weak.

 

[banned username 2]

I could have easily flown over 9 hours. The airplane performs better than the book. I am betting the website stats are for the Legacy I / Shuttle. Get with the program. The plane is better than that.

The numbers from the Embraer web site were for the Legacy Executive, NOT the Legacy Shuttle... The Legacy Shuttle only has a range of 1,700 NM at Mach 0.78... The Legacy Executive claimed 8:02 (at Mach 0.74) would leave you with about 2,130 lbs of fuel (16,100 lbs burned)... At 9:00 you would have been tanks dry... (18,170 lbs max fuel capacity minus the 16,100 burn for 8:02 minus another 2,126 lbs for 0:58 more mins to make 9:00 (You stated 1,100 lbs per side/hr at FL390)... so 16,100 + 2,126 = 18,226 which is 56 lbs beyond max fuel capacity)... So you actually would have ran dry at about 8+58... So you are right, you could have done over 9 hours... because it would have taken you probably about 15 mins to glide down from FL390 to the ground after your tanks ran dry at 8+58... So 9+13 in the air is a possibility... Once...

As for strength, the design load was exceeded by a tremendous margin and the gear held. A Gulfstream woulda poked the struts right through the wing (if they did not snap first). Nobody killed, plane taxied off runway under its own power. This is proof of the airplane's toughness. There isn't an airplane in the corporate world I can think of that would survive a smacking like that!

Uh, the crew on one of the accidents stated that they weren't even aware the tail broke, stated that no unusal landing forces were noted... EMB later added strengthening and stiffing to the aft fuselage...