Leave SWA for AA or Delta?

[Scoot 11]

Whatever Scoot. Ahhh, I mean General.

A regional that flies 3500 flights a day with a ton of transcon, that pays higher than your widebody, riverboat jacket wearing, bankruptcy airline. Cheers!

Sure red, I mean scoreboard, I mean canyon blue, or whoever it is you're blowing these days.
Yes, southwest is nothing more than a PFT regional with lousy benefits, no retirement, 1 airplane and 6 legs a day, much like most regionals. Heck, even Republic has 1800 flights a day. And there, at least you don't have to pay for your job, like the crappy regional you work for.
And you might want to check your pay scales junior f/o. Your facts, much like your captain career, aren't even coming close!

 

[Mookie]

Just imagine for a moment.

5.5-6 yr FO, early 30s, at SWA.
Still in the bottom 10% (believe it or not.)

Upgrade is a total of 20-21 years.

Morale is getting stinky here.
We've bungled Hawaii, Class 2 nav, our route structure, we're late.
Our CEO is more focused on saving money than growth.
Contract neg. are going nowhere.

Work rules are ok, pay is good.

Given the massive retirements coming, would you consider leaving for AA or Delta??

Why or why not?
Discuss.....

...had to pay for your type....

 

[Linedriver]

Over the next 14 years Delta will retire 7500 pilots -thats 65% of our current pilot staffing. Be careful though, in this industry you can always live for tomorrow. If I were you I would probably stay put. SWA is still a good place to be.

 

[Tripower455]

This is a tough decision to make. This career is nothing more than a crap shoot.

WN has been a great carrier and a great place to work, but, like stocks, past performance is no guarantee of future performance.

There's been lots of cheese being moved lately, with little or nothing to show for it, particularly for our more junior pilots.

There's lots that has happened recently that, if I were in the OPs shoes (young, in the bottom 10%), would have me seriously considering other options.

The near future retirement numbers at the legacies are staggering and could be a real career windfall for a younger pilot, especially if he/she got hired at the beginning of the boom.

FWIW, I'd at least put some apps in and interview, then run the numbers if I was offered a job.

 

[Phlintstone]

To me it is pretty simple...Are you happy at SWA? If you are then stay. If not, leave. You'll make do financially one way or the other. Only you can answer the question based on your particular set of circumstances.

Phred

 

[Tripower455]

Yes, southwest is nothing more than a PFT regional

SW paid ME for every second of training I've done in 18 years.

with lousy benefits

Really? Please explain.

no retirement

I agree that we could use better retirement. That said, I put more away in a year at WN than I did in 10 years at the commuters.

1 airplane

Last time I checked, we had nearly 600 airplanes.

and 6 legs a day, much like most regionals.

I can't remember the last time I did 6 legs in one day. It's been at least a decade. Heck, I rarely do more than 3 a day. My average 3 day has 6-8 legs, total.

Heck, even Republic has 1800 flights a day. And there, at least you don't have to pay for your job, like the crappy regional you work for.

Really? Republic? Where, like every other regional, you pay for your job with low salary and lousy QOL, every single day from the time you're hired until you get a real job?

And you might want to check your pay scales junior f/o. Your facts, much like your captain career, aren't even coming close!

Ditto. See above.

 

[General Lee]

If you are considering leaving, there is a reason. You can always apply to the big 3 and see what happens. Maybe you will be highly impressed with one of them, and then make the jump. If you do, jump early.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Tripower455]

If you are considering leaving, there is a reason. You can always apply to the big 3 and see what happens. Maybe you will be highly impressed with one of them, and then make the jump. If you do, jump early.


Bye Bye---General Lee

I can't say this too often, but I agree with GL. Mark the day on your calendar.

 

[HowardBorden]

Just imagine for a moment.

5.5-6 yr FO, early 30s, at SWA.
Still in the bottom 10% (believe it or not.)

Upgrade is a total of 20-21 years.

Morale is getting stinky here.
We've bungled Hawaii, Class 2 nav, our route structure, we're late.
Our CEO is more focused on saving money than growth.
Contract neg. are going nowhere.

Work rules are ok, pay is good.

Given the massive retirements coming, would you consider leaving for AA or Delta??

Why or why not?
Discuss.....

Well, if you're based anywhere west of Denver, you are holding 18 days off and enjoying the majority of your weekends at home while making a six figure salary.

Do you want to go back to reserve for half the salary?

Do you want to be at the bottom of the list and distinctly more vulnerable to furlough?

Do you enjoy your job? If not, will less days off for less money make it any better?

If your relatively happy for sure you should stay. If your unhappy with the job will moving to the bottom of the list somewhere else make you more happy?

 

[General Lee]

Well, if you're based anywhere west of Denver, you are holding 18 days off and enjoying the majority of your weekends at home while making a six figure salary.

Do you want to go back to reserve for half the salary?

Do you want to be at the bottom of the list and distinctly more vulnerable to furlough?

Do you enjoy your job? If not, will less days off for less money make it any better?

If your relatively happy for sure you should stay. If your unhappy with the job will moving to the bottom of the list somewhere else make you more happy?

Howie, you keep forgetting the part about 5000 leaving from each Legacy. Not if, but when? Reserve wouldn't be long, and with that type of upward movement a newbie could expect to jump up a plane type or two quickly, getting an even higher pay rate. Don't be so defensive. And, getting on earlier gives some furlough protection. Consolidation has helped somewhat mitigate the furlough risk, although never totally, even at your airline in the future....


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[-9Capt]

If your unhappy with the job will moving to the bottom of the list somewhere else make you more happy?

He's obviously thinking long term.

 

[SWA Bubba]

He's obviously thinking long term.

Ah... As you must be.

Bubba

 

[kwick]

No brainer, unless you believe the GK BS!

 

[Tejas-Jet]

...had to pay for your type....

"had" to pay for a type ? That has never been a requirement to be a pilot at SWA. If it had been, I would've never been hired.

 

[General Lee]

Ah... As you must be.

Bubba

He's obviously a smart man, and doesn't want any FANTASTIC layovers in Lubbock!


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[General Lee]

"had" to pay for a type ? That has never been a requirement to be a pilot at SWA. If it had been, I would've never been hired.

Someone paid for it, except your company. That's the point. What's great now is that they finally HAVE TO with the AT 717 guys transitioning. Maybe if you start charging for bags, you can pay for it....


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[JohnQ]

They did great.....no question. What's your point?

Some of them did, but others who retired early have been kicking themselves for years now. I knew a 757 captain who retired early at age 52, and got $400,000 in his lump sum. Between the change to Age 65 and a successful merger, he would have been a mid-level 7ER/A330/765/ captain easily making $200,000 or more the past five years, if not more.

For those guys approaching age 60 in 2004/5 timeframe, retiring early and getting the lump sum truly was a no-brainer. For the guys in their early 50s it was a whole other story.

What I loved hearing was all my fellow F/Os stating something like "I can't see why anyone would stay--I would be out of here in a heartbeat if I could."

Bull...sheet. They all only said that because they wanted everyone above them to retire early so that they could move up. Hey, I wanted the same! But I was honest about it--I was only thinking about me and not conjuring some fake crocodile tears all out of "concern" for the overall well-being of captains who were senior to me.

 

[General Lee]

Some of them did, but others who retired early have been kicking themselves for years now. I knew a 757 captain who retired early at age 52, and got $400,000 in his lump sum. Between the change to Age 65 and a successful merger, he would have been a mid-level 7ER/A330/765/ captain easily making $200,000 or more the past five years, if not more.

For those guys approaching age 60 in 2004/5 timeframe, retiring early and getting the lump sum truly was a no-brainer. For the guys in their early 50s it was a whole other story.

What I loved hearing was all my fellow F/Os stating something like "I can't see why anyone would stay--I would be out of here in a heartbeat if I could."

Bull...sheet. They all only said that because they wanted everyone above them to retire early so that they could move up. Hey, I wanted the same! But I was honest about it--I was only thinking about me and not conjuring some fake crocodile tears all out of "concern" for the overall well-being of captains who were senior to me.

Nobody knew what was going to happen with BK. Heck, Parker took a shot at DL. If they had a large lump sum waiting, then the choice was obvious. $400k? I don't know about that. That seems like a personal choice.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Mookie]

"had" to pay for a type ? That has never been a requirement to be a pilot at SWA. If it had been, I would've never been hired.

....had to play, or have someone else pay...

Better???

 

[vetrider]

Back in 09 I had recurrent in Phoenix for LCC, and we had a youngish, fit looking guy who had taken the early retirement from Delta who was teaching the general subjects on the first day. If I remember right, he was doing that more for something to do than anything else. I only remember seeing him that one time though, I don't think he stayed long. A real nice fellow.

 

[Ty Webb]

Some of them did, but others who retired early have been kicking themselves for years now. I knew a 757 captain who retired early at age 52, and got $400,000 in his lump sum. Between the change to Age 65 and a successful merger, he would have been a mid-level 7ER/A330/765/ captain easily making $200,000 or more the past five years, if not more.

For those guys approaching age 60 in 2004/5 timeframe, retiring early and getting the lump sum truly was a no-brainer. For the guys in their early 50s it was a whole other story.

.

AirTran hired a couple of dozen early-retirees from Delta; I have flown with many of them. They had a difficult choice to make- take a lump sum in their 50's (I think for most of them it was more like $1M-$2M) and "retire", or keep flying until age 60 and then take a greatly-reduced PGBC benefit in retirement.

Most of the guys we hired were 76ER Check Airmen. It was a difficult choice for them to make, and, after they made their choice, the playing field changed- Age 60 went away, and they would have had another 5 years to fly, but they had no way to factor this in.

These guys, by the way, have been a real pleasure to fly with; true professionals, they did a great job as FO's, and never tried to run the cockpit, or complain about what happened. I have enjoyed flying with them, and when it's my turn to be an FO again, I hope to do it as well as they did for me. . . . Unless you want to screw things up and tell me how I "won the lottery", then you're on your own.

Regds,
Ty

 

[BentOver]

I had a DO who was early retiree from Delta.. Maybe age 53 when he retired as a widebody Captain....

Became the DO of our 3 plane charter outfit making maybe $80-100K, working paperwork Ops manual type stuff, and also flying a couple times a week.. And home nearly every night.. Piece of cake job...

Probably the single funnest person I've ever flown with... (while he was a good 25 years older than me) The absolute most laid back pilot and a blast on overnights....

Sometimes it's not all about the $$$ if you have your home life set the way you want it... Which he did

 

[Dan Roman]

"had" to pay for a type ? That has never been a requirement to be a pilot at SWA. If it had been, I would've never been hired.

SWA requires a 737 type. We all know that. Personally I think it's hypocritical for people to throw stones at them for that. I remember airlines requiring a Flight Engineer rating. BUT, when you say "I didn't pay for a type", that is a very weak argument. They DO require it, it is a PFT deal that saves them money and denying it just because you happened to have it or the VA paid for it certainly doesn't win the debate on the subject.

 

[Ty Webb]

SWA requires a 737 type. We all know that. Personally I think it's hypocritical for people to throw stones at them for that. I remember airlines requiring a Flight Engineer rating. BUT, when you say "I didn't pay for a type", that is a very weak argument. They DO require it, it is a PFT deal that saves them money and denying it just because you happened to have it or the VA paid for it certainly doesn't win the debate on the subject.

Dan, I remember airlines requiring the Flight Engineer written, but I don't remember any requiring the actual rating. . . .

Was it this one?


http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4125/5031071201_726fa64d66.jpg



.

 

[Dan Roman]

Thought I remembered Braniff requiring it, I could be wrong. BUT I remember a lot of people shelling out 5 grand for an FE rating to get an airline job.

 

[Ty Webb]

Thought I remembered Braniff requiring it, I could be wrong. BUT I remember a lot of people shelling out 5 grand for an FE rating to get an airline job.

Well, clearly you remember back further than I do. I only remember back to the days when they required nepotism or knobs.

:laugh:

 

[HowardBorden]

SWA requires a 737 type. We all know that. Personally I think it's hypocritical for people to throw stones at them for that. I remember airlines requiring a Flight Engineer rating. BUT, when you say "I didn't pay for a type", that is a very weak argument. They DO require it, it is a PFT deal that saves them money and denying it just because you happened to have it or the VA paid for it certainly doesn't win the debate on the subject.

Sorry Dan, you are wrong. A 737 type rating is simply a hiring requirement like any other requirement. Most, if not all airlines require somewhere near 1000 hours of PIC turbine experience and that is universally accepted. Many require a 4 year degree just to have the ability to apply! Southwest does not require a degree. I think we all know what requirement is more expensive, but so many are willing to look away from the degree prerequisite as an actual prerequisite.

In the end, those that want to work for SWA may want to buy a type rating in order to increase their odds of a job offer from SWA, while others (like me) may get offered employment without a type rating.

 

[waveflyer]

Definitely leave because you are senior to me!

5+ years at SWA, no regrets for coming here.

Haha- was thinking the same thing
Too bad he's not a 7 year guy

I have no regrets for coming here either and have been at others-
But I'll say it again, if you aren't into SWA and what we are- and if you don't want to take the leadership role for that- why stay?
First time in a decade+ there are compelling career reasons for leaving

We have lots w/ legacy attitudes who came here only bc it was the highest paying, best contract and could care less about swa culture- AND, I don't judge that- honestly, good on you. But if you're the type that expects the perfect culture will be bestowed onto you while you do nothing towards it. Why stay?

Demographically, that doesn't fit a good idea anymore
For the see able future you won't be the 99-'00 hire who left and got furloughed- you'll have a good career most anywhere
Seniority is still the game though, so I wouldn't mess around- be a student and get in at the beginning- ride the wave- it's been a long time coming, but it's here again

 

[waveflyer]

Sweet!, in 8 years, the upgrade time will be 10 years? Well, I guess 18 years is better than 20........

Math not your strong suit is it?

 

[Kharma Police]

Math not your strong suit is it?

It's good, as long as I have my 12 fingers, I'm fine.