Leave SWA for AA or Delta?

[Beech Balls]

Just imagine for a moment.

5.5-6 yr FO, early 30s, at SWA.
Still in the bottom 10% (believe it or not.)

Upgrade is a total of 20-21 years.

Morale is getting stinky here.
We've bungled Hawaii, Class 2 nav, our route structure, we're late.
Our CEO is more focused on saving money than growth.
Contract neg. are going nowhere.

Work rules are ok, pay is good.

Given the massive retirements coming, would you consider leaving for AA or Delta??

Why or why not?
Discuss.....

 

[skywiz]

Just imagine for a moment.

5.5-6 yr FO, early 30s, at SWA.
Still in the bottom 10% (believe it or not.)

Upgrade is a total of 20-21 years.

Morale is getting stinky here.
We've bungled Hawaii, Class 2 nav, our route structure, we're late.
Our CEO is more focused on saving money than growth.
Contract neg. are going nowhere.

Work rules are ok, pay is good.

Given the massive retirements coming, would you consider leaving for AA or Delta??

Why or why not?
Discuss.....

American! Lots of retirements, widebody flying, more variety and pay going way up. I can't imagine doing the same style of flying for 20+ years. That's just me. Good luck! Oh and between AA or DAL, I'd pick the one with base I could live at or commute to the easiest. Note that US Air has the best Jumpseat policy in the industry in that u can reserve the Jumpseat...hopefully this carries over to AA.

 

[crxpilot]

Don't do it. Seniority is everything. Unless another airline has a base you want or already live in, you'll be just chasing your tail. Things are constantly changing, and so it will be at southwest or xyz airline. Enjoy your good fortune!

 

[mayoplane]

Definitely leave because you are senior to me!

5+ years at SWA, no regrets for coming here.

 

[skywiz]

Don't do it. Seniority is everything. Unless another airline has a base you want or already live in, you'll be just chasing your tail. Things are constantly changing, and so it will be at southwest or xyz airline. Enjoy your good fortune!

Actually I take back what I said. I missed that u have been there 6 years. If I was in your situation, I'd move to my base. Can't go wrong with that. I'd only switch carriers if the commute is unbearable and u could live in base at one of the legacies.

 

[N1atEcon]

Too many unknowns in the world. Right now you have a sure thing. I had friends at AA who said they will never upgrade. You could go to AA or DAL then what if Israel has enough of the politics/ lies and bombs the Iranain nuke facilites. Fuel goes to 180 overnight. Your on the street. Everything comes and goes in waves. Almost all majors are doing well now (thanks to bankruptcy) but look back at the billions lost in the last two decades.
If your really that upset about not going to Hawaii or doing class two nav then you should risk it. I just wannt good pay, days off and flexibility.

 

[johnsonrod]

I'd apply to AA right now and leverage your contacts. Big # of retirements approaching. Hiring into the Airbus in DFW (junior bid) and you could possibly bid the 787 in 5 years after they start arriving in bulk in a year or so. Pay at all legacies is comparable to SWA and improving.

Why not throw your hat in the ring and see how it goes?

 

[vetrider]

I've seen or known many more people over the years who have gotten bitten in the ass chasing the greener grass than I have who've improved their lot in life by doing so.

 

[scoreboardII]

Just imagine for a moment.

5.5-6 yr FO, early 30s, at SWA.
Still in the bottom 10% (believe it or not.)

Upgrade is a total of 20-21 years.

Morale is getting stinky here.
We've bungled Hawaii, Class 2 nav, our route structure, we're late.
Our CEO is more focused on saving money than growth.
Contract neg. are going nowhere.

Work rules are ok, pay is good.

Given the massive retirements coming, would you consider leaving for AA or Delta??

Why or why not?
Discuss.....

If that's the real age of the pilot in question, stay at SWA.

Morale is great where in this industry?
Bungled, but not lost money, big difference.
Saving money is not all bad, reference every legacy playing the other side of the coin.
Contract negotiations are always slow at SWA, last one Five years, this one is nothing new. Chilax.

The upgrade timeline is an aberration right now and will reduce back to 10 or so years in the next eight or so years.


If you where in the 30-40 age range, then jump ship. Above 50, stay and enjoy the ride.

 

[Kharma Police]

If that's the real age of the pilot in question, stay at SWA.

Morale is great where in this industry?
Bungled, but not lost money, big difference.
Saving money is not all bad, reference every legacy playing the other side of the coin.
Contract negotiations are always slow at SWA, last one Five years, this one is nothing new. Chilax.

The upgrade timeline is an aberration right now and will reduce back to 10 or so years in the next eight or so years.


If you where in the 30-40 age range, then jump ship. Above 50, stay and enjoy the ride.

Sweet!, in 8 years, the upgrade time will be 10 years? Well, I guess 18 years is better than 20........

 

[jonjuan]

I've seen or known many more people over the years who have gotten bitten in the ass chasing the greener grass than I have who've improved their lot in life by doing so.

Or those who stayed at USAir through the 90s versus going to SWA because they had "seniority." Look at where they would be now versus where they are.

 

[cbrown1]

Or those who stayed at USAir through the 90s versus going to SWA because they had "seniority." Look at where they would be now versus where they are.

Or those guys at delta who took the buyout from delta in the mid 2000's.

 

[vetrider]

Rots of ruck, or lack thereof, involved no matter what you do. There are no easy answers.

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

Or those guys at delta who took the buyout from delta in the mid 2000's.

They did great.....no question. What's your point?

 

[General Lee]

Just imagine for a moment.

5.5-6 yr FO, early 30s, at SWA.
Still in the bottom 10% (believe it or not.)

Upgrade is a total of 20-21 years.

Morale is getting stinky here.
We've bungled Hawaii, Class 2 nav, our route structure, we're late.
Our CEO is more focused on saving money than growth.
Contract neg. are going nowhere.

Work rules are ok, pay is good.

Given the massive retirements coming, would you consider leaving for AA or Delta??

Why or why not?
Discuss.....

Getting in at the beginning or even middle of a hiring wave is good. The shear numbers of mandatory retirements will promote many things, better QOL in a certain plane of your choice (moving up in category), the ability to jump up several aircraft types to try different types of flying, or upgrade to Capt sooner. DL has over 800 per year leaving for 4 straight years (at age 65) from 2020-2023, and the following year (2024) over 600 are scheduled to leave. That is unbelievable upward movement, and the current highest new hire pay among the big 3, along with the end of a 3 year contract coming up, points to good things. A $1.37 billion quarter profit that includes profit sharing for employees, plus very well played moves by DL management are positive also.

AA is close, but throwing AA pilots with the infighting groups of the AWA Westies and the US Easties that haven't handled their seniority list merger well at all should give anyone pause. That does not sound like a comfortable workplace. It might not be for years.

Southwest has great pay and solid financials, but one aircraft type flying mainly domestic could get boring. Multiple leg days with tight turns may add to burn out. Throw in stagnation, 1/3 of the group being more than a little upset about recent turn of events, and slow contract talks, and I think many of the bottom half of SWA will be tempted to get into the beginning of a hiring wave at any of the big 3 airlines. Heck, the pay is coming back, old guys will be leaving, and the legacies have variety of flying. Good luck.



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[LearLove]

It's all a roll of the dice.

Take my career so far. Made it to a commuter in 99. Headed for upgrade and TPIC then 911 happens. Get upgraded then downgraded.

By 2004 it looked like my career was all but over given the mainline was headed for BK #2 and there was little hiring at any airline worth calling a career. Then this "bid" opens up for this thing called MDA. I chose to bid MDA because it would get me out of the upstate NY "ice station zebra" base I was stuck in and back home, not because I thought I'd get a mainline number. In fact at the time that subject was a big joke among the CEL MDA guys.

Then MDA gets sold. In an attempt to pad the mainline list for the US/AWA merger the CEL guys who went to MDA get put on the mainline list for sure (we became AAA ALPA's best friends). Next thing U know I'm J4J at Rep and get some Tpic then recalled to mainline in 2008. Things look good.

Not so fast. Summer of 08 fuel spikes and everyone hired off the street in 07/08 get furloughed. 10 of the 25 190's get sold and it looks like my ride has come to an end as a mainline 190 FO. Some block hour grievance saves us bottom feeders from the street and we putter along for 2 years. Then in late 2011 things start to move fwd again due to improving airline financials and retirements.

So now things look good. My senority can hold 190 CA, 767 FO or a block as an FO on the small AB (pick our poison). Then the ugly girl at the dance smashes into the big drunk texas quarterback, but not without the govt. principle trying to separate them. Now we're banging under the gym bleachers and get to be one of the big 3.

What's next? F'ck if I know. All I do is show up, try not to screw the pooch and make the news, pass my checkrides and go home.

As a kid all I ever wanted to do was be a test pilot or fly for United. Never saw myself at AAA or AMR. In fact I never applied to either prior to 911.

If I were you (original poster) I'd stay put.

 

[shagadelic]

When I got hired at SWA in 2000 my classmate two places junior to me quit after a few months and went to United chasing the big contract, which I didn't fault him for... If he ever went back to United after two furloughs, then he is now a bottom FO right now while I'm a 60% Captain. It's all relative. And a crap shoot. Good luck with whatever decision you make.

 

[Scoot 11]

Sweet!, in 8 years, the upgrade time will be 10 years? Well, I guess 18 years is better than 20........

Math never was his strong suit. He still thinks that he didn't have to pay for training and tells his wife constantly that ----------- length is 6"! I would advise anyone in the bottom 20% to bail. Furloughs are just around the corner at that disfunctional regional

 

[redflyer65]

Math never was his strong suit. He still thinks that he didn't have to pay for training and tells his wife constantly that ----------- length is 6"! I would advise anyone in the bottom 20% to bail. Furloughs are just around the corner at that disfunctional regional

Whatever Scoot. Ahhh, I mean General.

A regional that flies 3500 flights a day with a ton of transcon, that pays higher than your widebody, riverboat jacket wearing, bankruptcy airline. Cheers!

 

[Hpilot]

Just my 2 cents, but i'd be really hesitant to leave Southwest. Like Vette said, i too know to many people that got burned hoping around. I remember a couple years after getting hired at AWA i thought about leaving, i had several thousand 121 PIC and 4 yr. The wisest guys i knew all said the same thing. Unless bankruptcy or liquadation is eminent, don't jump ship. Glad i didn't.

 

[STL717]

Tell me what the economy will do in the next few years and I'll tell you what to do....

 

[ultrarunner]

It's all a roll of the dice.

Take my career so far. ....

Great post LearLove...

 

[General Lee]

Just my 2 cents, but i'd be really hesitant to leave Southwest. Like Vette said, i too know to many people that got burned hoping around. I remember a couple years after getting hired at AWA i thought about leaving, i had several thousand 121 PIC and 4 yr. The wisest guys i knew all said the same thing. Unless bankruptcy or liquadation is eminent, don't jump ship. Glad i didn't.

Don't jump ship, and don't notice that 15,000 pilots from the big 3 will retire within 10 years. Consolidation will strengthen the remaining big 3, not weaken them. Looking at the past doesn't mean it will repeat in the future. Instead, just stagnate at SWA. That doesn't seem out of the question, to anyone, even at SWA apparently. Being hired in the first half of a hiring wave like this can reset your career, and the retirements will happen.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[retired guy]

Don`t do it! Stay where you are.

 

[kommutrdog]

It's all a roll of the dice.

Then the ugly girl at the dance smashes into the big drunk texas quarterback, but not without the govt. principle trying to separate them. Now we're banging under the gym bleachers and get to be one of the big 3.

What's next? F'ck if I know. All I do is show up, try not to screw the pooch and make the news, pass my checkrides and go home.


If I were you (original poster) I'd stay put.

LOL !!!!!

Thanks for the laughs. This career can drive a person to drink. Which reminds me... (reaches for gin and tonic).

 

[General Lee]

Don`t do it! Stay where you are.

Yes! Stagnate! Avoid MANDATORY retirement numbers around 15,000. Avoid a variety of flying. And make sure you don't interview and try to get an offer before following the retired guy's advice. Just don't do anything...

Btw, the retired guy does have a point IF you can't get on in the first couple years of hiring. Being in the latter half of a hiring wave isn't prudent.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[StopNTSing]

Just imagine for a moment.

5.5-6 yr FO, early 30s, at SWA.
Still in the bottom 10% (believe it or not.)

Upgrade is a total of 20-21 years.

Morale is getting stinky here.
We've bungled Hawaii, Class 2 nav, our route structure, we're late.
Our CEO is more focused on saving money than growth.
Contract neg. are going nowhere.

Work rules are ok, pay is good.

Given the massive retirements coming, would you consider leaving for AA or Delta??

Why or why not?
Discuss.....

[FONT=&quot]Tough call. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Assuming you aren't harboring a secret lust to fly the really big iron to really far-away places (if so, then why are you here?), then it comes down to career expectations. Which in turn distills out to whether you bet on SWA's scope vs. AA's retirements. Unless we cave in this Sect 6 (and I?m not saying it couldn't happen), ALL SWA flying will continue to be done by SWAPA pilots. No one else can say the same. Between RJs and international code-sharing/joint ventures, all Legacy pilots are still vulnerable to more outsourcing of their jobs. AA/USAir are just starting down the merger path, and will be in for a long period of ugly like we are now experiencing with ATN. As recent deals have shown, 1+1=1.5 with most any merger, and those ?synergies? will offset some of AA/USAir?s upcoming retirements. The Legacies already pretty much go from everywhere to everywhere else, so there?s really not much potential growth left. But it?s a big new world outside the Lower 48 for SWA and when we eventually get out of our own way to send canyon-blue airplanes beyond SJU, then there could be some real serious organic growth again. However, in all likelihood we will buy another airline within the next decade and that will mute much of the potential growth. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Like someone else already said, tell me what the economy does in the next five years and I can tell you which airline to go to.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Good luck.[/FONT]

 

[Remington]

What does a 6yr Swa FO make a yr? How long would it take you to get back to that pay grade?

 

[Wesb737fo]

Hey Beech,

You have been a SWA 6 years and you have over thirty years to go.? Man I wish I had that much time left. How many guys do you have below you (including AT)? I'm the equivalent of mid 2008 and I have 1100 guys below me. I can't make the numbers work to think about going anywhere else but I guess it's not all about money. If you are trying to raise a family that's a tougher call because a mistake has a bigger impact. If you are single and want to be a Captain sooner, different story. Despite my opinion about the SWA/ AT deal, I still like the balance sheet at SWA and the stability it will provide. Overused Cliche Alert! Someone once told me you won't know if you made the right call until you look back after you retire.

 

[Mercyful Fate]

Stay away from Delta...Unless you are cool with Genital "lee" Warts as your dispatcher, or crew scheduling contact...I am still on the fence as to which department she really is in