Lear 60 vs Hawker 800XP

[Bandit60]

Just my opinion...I am typed in both the Lear60 and Hawker (800xp with collins proline). I like them both. Here is how I describe the Lear60. Great climb performance, unstable at high altitudes, terrible runway lenghts and terrible brakes.

The Hawker 800xp collins has great avionics and a larger cockpit. The airplane doesnt do anything great but does everything good.

I personally like the Hawker a little better than the Lear.

The Hawker is much more reliable. Lots less maintance problems and support from Ratheon is excellent right now.

The lear60 had lots of electrical gremlins and support sucked!

 

[Bandit60]

Learjet Pilot, Thanks for writing back. You might have misread/misunderstood what I wrote. I was saying that the Lear60 does not carry a lot of fuel. If it stayed in the low 30s (lets say for wind going West), it would not be able to complete its mission without a tech stop. The Hawker stays in the 30s initially, then completes its climb as fuel burns off and it accelerates. A 60 would burn too much fuel (Fuel on boardPH ratio) to do that, thus it has to get high to get the #s it needs to be as efficient. The 800 burns about 2K lbs total at 350 the 1st hour. Get it to 410, and it's sipping fuel.

That is not really true. I have lots of time in both types of aircraft. The one thing that always amazed me was the fact that the Lear60 was extremely fuel efficient at low altitudes. It has so much power that at low altitudes you have to pull the power back so far so you dont red line it. There have been times that I have tried to fly lower to burn fuel off because i was a little too heavy for landing and could not burn it off. (had to hold to burn fuel off)

If the 800xp had the engines of the Lear 60 that would be the perfect airplane.

 

[FracCapt]

If the 800xp had the engines of the Lear 60 that would be the perfect airplane.

Actually, I believe the XP has more thrust than the 60. I think the 60 is rated at 4600lbs a side. The new XP's coming off the line are 4660. Keep in mind, though....the XP has a MGTOW that's 4500lbs heavier than the 60. To give them the same power to weight ratio, the Hawker would need about 5500lbs a side. Now THAT would make it unbeatable in its class.

 

[thatpilotguy]

I don't have any experience in either aircraft. Raytheon has been courting us with the 800XP for a few months. I wanted to write and express my experience with Raytheon in regards to maintenance.

We operate a Beechjet (Hawker 400XP.) Although it is under warranty we have had the best customer support you can imagine. I'm sure that part of it is that the aircraft is still covered under warranty. But with that said, Raytheon has gone above and beyond more than once for us. From the owners prospective I can tell you that if price was no object he would be in an 800XP, when the time comes. The new Collins avionics and the new interior design are awesome.

I started my career in Lear Jets. They hold a special place in my heart, but when it comes down to it the day to day customer support and service that Raytheon has provided us is a real future selling point.

I just wanted to put in my 2 sense!

 

[Bandit60]

Actually, I believe the XP has more thrust than the 60. I think the 60 is rated at 4600lbs a side. The new XP's coming off the line are 4660. Keep in mind, though....the XP has a MGTOW that's 4500lbs heavier than the 60. To give them the same power to weight ratio, the Hawker would need about 5500lbs a side. Now THAT would make it unbeatable in its class.

I was really refering to the Pratts instead of the 731

 

[jeb]

I want to thank everyone for there input on this subject. We are going to do demo flights on each of the aircraft. This will at least get our CEO the chance to see which aircraft he prefers. I have put together pros and cons of each aircraft. One of the biggest concerns is lack of support by Lear Jet after the sale. I have talk to several people who fly Lear products. I know Raytheon has its problems but I believe they are addressing them. I like the range the Hawker offers, I am surprised it has take Cessna so long to develop an aircraft to compete with the Hawker in the range area.

 

[Groundpounder]

I want to thank everyone for there input on this subject. We are going to do demo flights on each of the aircraft. This will at least get our CEO the chance to see which aircraft he prefers. I have put together pros and cons of each aircraft. One of the biggest concerns is lack of support by Lear Jet after the sale. I have talk to several people who fly Lear products. I know Raytheon has its problems but I believe they are addressing them. I like the range the Hawker offers, I am surprised it has take Cessna so long to develop an aircraft to compete with the Hawker in the range area.

Isn't the Soverign designed to compete with the Hawker?

 

[some_dude]

Yes, the Sovereign was specifically designed to kick the 800's ass. If you are looking at a new 800, I would look at a Sovereign as well.

Isn't the Soverign designed to compete with the Hawker?

 

[Tony Nelson]

Flyboy Sabre 65

I currently fly a Sabre 65 and we are considering a Hawker 800 or 800XP. What are your flying impressions of the 800 compared to the Sabre 65. I love the Sabre but we are considering something a little bigger and newer.

Thanks!

 

[cosmotheassman]

Why is this even up for discussion? The cockpit in the hawker is more roomy than the 60. That's all you need to know and that's all that is important... I would word it a little diff to the boss though...

What kind of engines are on the 60 anyway? That is one quiet engine.

I saw one of NJ Sovereigns in pbi and it was kind of ugly but very roomy on the inside.

 

[Bandit60]

What kind of engines are on the 60 anyway? That is one quiet engine.

They are the Pratts and they are awesome. I wish all the Hawkers had them. Those engines will put you in the seat on takeoff and will climb like a bat out of hell. (that I miss about the 60).

 

[h25b]

They are the Pratts and they are awesome. I wish all the Hawkers had them. Those engines will put you in the seat on takeoff and will climb like a bat out of hell. (that I miss about the 60).

The Hawker 1000 has the same engine of the Learjet 60 ... Not many of them around though ...

 

[Bandit60]

That is true but the Lear 60 is much lighter. I also hear the guys flying the 1000 love those engines too. I would just love to see them on the 800xp

 

[westwind driver]

What kind of performance does the Hawker 800 winglet mod add?

5 to 7% better field performance, applies to cruise aswell. Problem with the winglets on the 800 is you still have to use the original numbers from the book. While you may need 7% less runway, you have to use the numbers from the book.

Aviation Partners and Raytheon did not re-certify the aircraft with winglets. Only the Winglet STC was certified. It would have taken a couple of hundred hours of flight testing on top of what was already need to get STC approval, as well as doing all new takeoff minimum unstick speed tests, stalls and more. They would have had to do these test in a straight 800 AND a 800XP (different performance numbers)

Basically between flight testing, data collection and paperwork, we're talking millions of dollars. Simply not worth the cost.

As it is the Winglets cost a couple hundred thousand dollars, imagine the cost if the aircraft was performance re-certified.

So, you have to use the non-winglet performance numbers to be legal.

 

[jeb]

We have just completed our demo flights on the 60 and 800XP and the owners prefer the 800XP over the 60. They felt the 800 had more leg room and a more comfortable ride. With that said from a pilots view I also prefer the 800XP because of the avionics and it appears to be a more stable aircraft. I dont like the "weeping wing" on the 800XP and I know both like long runways when it's hot. I believe Raytheon has better support for their aircraft than Lear right now. The demo pilots were pretty straight forward about the performance on both aircraft. The 60 guys said the aircraft really doesn't like altitudes above FL430, I didn't realize the 60 uses the same wing as the 31A. For maintence if you have to get to the batteries on the 60 you have to take the APU out.I was told 440 was a good true airspeed to plan on. Fuelburn was much better on the 60. On the price both companies are offering good packages, Lear more than Raytheon but the price tag was about 1.3 less on the 60 (12.1 vs 13.6). The starting price on the Sovergin is 14.2. It is going to come down to what the company wants to pay, I think they will go the 800XP route. One final observation Raytheon had a great presentation. Lear had nothing!