Lear 60 vs Hawker 800XP

[patq1]

Here are a few Hawker 800XP facts. If you are going east coast to west coast in the XP you are going at long range cruise which is .70. If the winds are over about 50 knots you are going to have to stop even at LRC unless you are going to cut your reserve way down.

BOW is 16400 lbs.
Fuel capacity is 10000 lbs

max takeoff weight for FL410 at ISA is 25800 lbs, ISA +5 is 24.7, ISA-5 is 26.5

As you can see you will rarely be able to straight to FL410 if you have full fuel which you have to have if you want to attempt coast to coast. Once you get to FL410 you won't be doing .78 it will be more like .76 until you burn some fuel.

Here are a couple of scenarios:

IAD-LAX 52kt headwind High speed cruise FL400 8935 lbs 5+36
LRC 5+56 7790lbs 1983 nm

TEB-LAX 39 kt hw HSC FL400 5+51 9300 lbs
LRC 6+12 8100 lbs 2131 nm

As you can see you aren't going to make it during the winter. HSC to Salina, fill up and go.

Fuel burn for the first hour is about 2200 lbs and 1800 for the second at HSC.

The Hawker 800XP is a great airplane and I love it, but I would not call it a coast to coast airplane. It is comfortable, reasonably quick and it handles shorter runways reasonably well.

Pat

 

[BOZO]

60

Haven't flown the 800XP....but I have no desire to. The LJ60 is a great airplane. It does have it's limits (small wing, runway req's) but overall if you want to go 1500nm with 6 pax the 60 would be a perfect fit. You could load it up, go right to 410 and drop the hammer the whole way. It would be wise to find a 60 that had all of the improvements to bring it up to the "60XL" version. The myth about it having 35 brakes is not true. There's a new brake package avail. as well that is much improved over earlier 60's. Make sure the engines have the IBR inspection which looks for cracks (not the fan as prev. posted) The UNS FMS's are superb....don't know why anyone would count that as a negative. Biggest downside IMHO....service and support...my experience has been they could care less about your 13 million dollar ride!

 

[FracCapt]

Here are a few Hawker 800XP facts. If you are going east coast to west coast in the XP you are going at long range cruise which is .70. If the winds are over about 50 knots you are going to have to stop even at LRC unless you are going to cut your reserve way down.

BOW is 16400 lbs.
Fuel capacity is 10000 lbs

max takeoff weight for FL410 at ISA is 25800 lbs, ISA +5 is 24.7, ISA-5 is 26.5

As you can see you will rarely be able to straight to FL410 if you have full fuel which you have to have if you want to attempt coast to coast. Once you get to FL410 you won't be doing .78 it will be more like .76 until you burn some fuel.

You don't climb straight to 410 in a Hawker when you depart with full fuel...period. If you do it, or even attempt to, you don't know the airplane and you're an idiot. It may do it, but it won't get off the step once you're there. The Hawker is a step climb airplane.

I've done TEB-BFI, ATL-LAX, JAX-PDX, and ISP-SFO in an 800XP. The latter two were landing with about 1800lbs(no less), and were NOT during strong winter winds. ISP-SFO was during the summer.

The airplane WILL do coast to coast, but not all the time in all situations. Neither will the 60. It's bascially a personal preference as to which cabin the buyer prefers. The Hawker will do slightly longer legs, IMO, but not enough longer to make it a deal breaker.

 

[Number$Cruncher]

Astra/G100

Our company is looking to upgrade to midsize cabin aircraft. Our Ceo is looking for operator information on likes and dislikes about the 60 and 800XP. We have all the marketing information on both aircraft. We have a requirement to go 1500nm with six paxs. We have looked at the Excel and that won't get the job done so we are looking at these two aircraft. I know the 800 will do what we want but am a little concerned about product support. Also we have been told you have to step climb the 800 to 410? How is Lear support and are the operating cost close to what Lear claims ($1,134.00). I know there is some other aircraft that will do the job but we are looking new or 5 years old. Thanks for the help.

You might want to take a look at an Astra SP/G100. The cabin ain't what a Hawker's got (though not much worst than a 60), but it does have great legs and short field capabilities. It's been a while since I flew one, but from what I've heard support has gotten much better under Gulfstream. I used to work for an operator with a couple of Lear 60s, and the spread between the mx cost of the best/worst of them was almost 100% over a pretty extended period. Takeaway there is be double-careful if you buy a used one.

 

[cl604driver]

757BBJ, it seems that you dont know much about the lear 60. You say it burn alot of gas and that my friend is your first wrong answer about the 60. We almost always average 1500-1600 the first hour even with the most poor handling to altitude. You must be thinking about the Lear 24 when you say 200 a hour it is more like 2500 the first hour. I have done numerous Palm spring, vegas, SDL, LAX, trips in the 60 non-stop and usually land with 1500-1800 lbs. It just depends on the winds. I hear the info i got from the hawker 800XP from my numerous buddies who fly for NetJets and fly these hawkers. Most of them plan on and usually make the SLN fuel stop. I dont think they would just make up something like that.

 

[Rick1128]

After you use the Honeywell 8000 series FMS you will understand. You don't have to punch in codes to delete waypoints. It is much more intuitive than the UNS. And while the UNS is better than the XLS, I personally still consider the UNS to be a negative.

 

[cub46yc]

It is about a 1 in 10 chance that you are going to make east to west coast non stop in a 60. The 60 has about Five hours of range at LRC of .74 plus reserve so the winds had better be not existant. Better off to go .78 .79 and stop in sln for a 20 minute turn, wink at the cutes and still make the trip in Five hours Fifteen minutes.

 

[FracCapt]

I hear the info i got from the hawker 800XP from my numerous buddies who fly for NetJets and fly these hawkers. Most of them plan on and usually make the SLN fuel stop. I dont think they would just make up something like that.

Do you really think that they are stopping in SLN just because they need gas and it's about halfway? Not a chance. Ever been to Flower at SLN?

As I said, I do east to west all the time in a Hawker. Not sure why your numerous buddies flying the same airplane can't ever do it.

 

[some_dude]

I haven't flown either a Lear 60 or a Hawker 800, but I think that your comment about the Honeywell FMS is open to debate. The Honeywells, at least in the Sovereign, did have slightly more capability than the UNS, but I, personally, found the UNS to be far more user friendly and intuitive.

I would consider the UNS to be a positive.

After you use the Honeywell 8000 series FMS you will understand. You don't have to punch in codes to delete waypoints. It is much more intuitive than the UNS. And while the UNS is better than the XLS, I personally still consider the UNS to be a negative.

 

[757BBJ_Capt]

757BBJ, it seems that you dont know much about the lear 60. You say it burn alot of gas and that my friend is your first wrong answer about the 60.

Learjet Pilot, Thanks for writing back. You might have misread/misunderstood what I wrote. I was saying that the Lear60 does not carry a lot of fuel. If it stayed in the low 30s (lets say for wind going West), it would not be able to complete its mission without a tech stop. The Hawker stays in the 30s initially, then completes its climb as fuel burns off and it accelerates. A 60 would burn too much fuel (Fuel on boardPH ratio) to do that, thus it has to get high to get the #s it needs to be as efficient. The 800 burns about 2K lbs total at 350 the 1st hour. Get it to 410, and it's sipping fuel.