Lear 60 vs Hawker 800XP

[757BBJ_Capt]

The Honeywell nz2000 is a great FMS. The UNS series are nice as well. What's nice about the nz2000 is that it makes you think. I don't know if they did that on purpose, but to input into it, you really have to be familiar with what it is that you are trying to do in terms of the nav fixes. For example, you can set a waypoint based on 2 crossing VORs or airways. For example it ATC tells you to take J6 to J152 (dont know if they really cross, just made that up for the example), and they just intersect with no fix to set up. Or if you want to get deep into the unit, you can set your angle of decent, speed at that point, and altitude you want to be when you get there and it will start you down. Now all of that is not a big deal, but what is nice is there is a feature that allows you to go direct vertically to that point at anytime. So, you can set it up no matter where you are in the flight to descend the aircraft to that point giving you the angle you have pre programmed. A magenta glideslpoe will come up and take you vertically to that point. Another nice thing is the NZ2000s will allow you to give yourself an extended center line at a distance of your choosing, thus allowing you to set up a glideslope to any runway threshhold in its database. I know the Collins will do that as well, but I have never heard of a UNS unit being able to do that.

I haven't flown either a Lear 60 or a Hawker 800, but I think that your comment about the Honeywell FMS is open to debate. The Honeywells, at least in the Sovereign, did have slightly more capability than the UNS, but I, personally, found the UNS to be far more user friendly and intuitive.

I would consider the UNS to be a positive.

 

[h25b]

The longest leg I have been able to get out of a Hawker 800A was 5 hrs. 52 min. from Whitehorse to Chicage MDW. I seem to remember that being pretty much the limit for that aircraft and I don't recall if the XP does any more than that...

As for the FMS, I'm now using the Universal in the Learjet 31A and dearly miss the Honeywell. By far a better box.

Another nice thing is the NZ2000s will allow you to give yourself an extended center line at a distance of your choosing, thus allowing you to set up a glideslope to any runway threshhold in its database. I know the Collins will do that as well, but I have never heard of a UNS unit being able to do that.

You can sort of accomplish this with the Universal UNS-1C by setting up a VFR approach (I think that's what it's called), but it is a major pain in the arse to set-up and this capability is one of the things that I miss about the Honeywell...

 

[Groundpounder]

What kind of performance does the Hawker 800 winglet mod add?

 

[vixin]

You can so set up a glide path with any runway on the UNS. Its been a while since I have done it because I just do the math in my head when vfr. I will have to go play with it and get back as to how. If I remember right its not that complicated.

 

[G100driver]

You can so set up a glide path with any runway on the UNS. Its been a while since have done it because I just do the math in my head when vfr. I will have to go play with it and get back as to how. If I remember right its not that complicated.

We used to do it all the time, especially on no VASI/PAPI runways. I have not used the Honeywell before, but the VFR approach mode on the Collins is much easier to set up than the UNS.

 

[vixin]

Learjet Pilot, Thanks for writing back. You might have misread/misunderstood what I wrote. I was saying that the Lear60 does not carry a lot of fuel. If it stayed in the low 30s (lets say for wind going West), it would not be able to complete its mission without a tech stop. The Hawker stays in the 30s initially, then completes its climb as fuel burns off and it accelerates. A 60 would burn too much fuel (Fuel on boardPH ratio) to do that, thus it has to get high to get the #s it needs to be as efficient. The 800 burns about 2K/side at 350 the 1st hour. Get it to 410, and it's sipping fuel.

4000 lbs the first hour...ouch. The 60 carries 7800 lbs. burns 1800 1st hour goes straight to 410. Using your same numbers the hawker would burn to much in the low 30's. If 4000 is correct that 2200 more then the 60 1st hour. The hawker carries 10,000 minus the additional 2200 you are left with the same 7800lbs. Both would have 6000 after the 1st hour. If you get a 60 make sure it has the brake mod and engine inspection IBR. Longest I have been up in the 60 was 5:45 and that my friends is plenty of Lear butt. In the 60 you NEVER hear please increase your climb rate. It is always what is your climb rate.

 

[Clutch_Cargo]

4000 lbs the first hour...ouch. The 60 carries 7800 lbs. burns 1800 1st hour goes straight to 410. Using your same numbers the hawker would burn to much in the low 30's. If 4000 is correct that 2200 more then the 60 1st hour. The hawker carries 10,000 minus the additional 2200 you are left with the same 7800lbs. Both would have 6000 after the 1st hour. If you get a 60 make sure it has the brake mod and engine inspection IBR. Longest I have been up in the 60 was 5:45 and that my friends is plenty of Lear butt. In the 60 you NEVER hear please increase your climb rate. It is always what is your climb rate.

Naw... that's not right... I think he meant 2000 TOTAL 1st hour burn. I used to figure 2100 1st hour, 1600 hours 2 & 3 and 1400 each hour after and that is being a little conservative. That was a straight 800 and figuring going to 350/370 to start. Can't comment on the 60 but the Hawker is a great bird and I think it would do well for Rick's missions.

cc

 

[LJ45]

UNS 1c

The Honeywell nz2000 is a great FMS. The UNS series are nice as well. What's nice about the nz2000 is that it makes you think. I don't know if they did that on purpose, but to input into it, you really have to be familiar with what it is that you are trying to do in terms of the nav fixes. For example, you can set a waypoint based on 2 crossing VORs or airways. For example it ATC tells you to take J6 to J152 (dont know if they really cross, just made that up for the example), and they just intersect with no fix to set up. Or if you want to get deep into the unit, you can set your angle of decent, speed at that point, and altitude you want to be when you get there and it will start you down. Now all of that is not a big deal, but what is nice is there is a feature that allows you to go direct vertically to that point at anytime. So, you can set it up no matter where you are in the flight to descend the aircraft to that point giving you the angle you have pre programmed. A magenta glideslpoe will come up and take you vertically to that point. Another nice thing is the NZ2000s will allow you to give yourself an extended center line at a distance of your choosing, thus allowing you to set up a glideslope to any runway threshhold in its database. I know the Collins will do that as well, but I have never heard of a UNS unit being able to do that.

UNS 1c will do everything you talked about ..except the speed.

 

[vixin]

Clutch,

I thought that was a little high. TNX

 

[757BBJ_Capt]

Sorry, I did mean 2000 total the 1st hour. I'll try to edit it.

Naw... that's not right... I think he meant 2000 TOTAL 1st hour burn. I used to figure 2100 1st hour, 1600 hours 2 & 3 and 1400 each hour after and that is being a little conservative. That was a straight 800 and figuring going to 350/370 to start. Can't comment on the 60 but the Hawker is a great bird and I think it would do well for Rick's missions.

cc

 

[Bandit60]

Just my opinion...I am typed in both the Lear60 and Hawker (800xp with collins proline). I like them both. Here is how I describe the Lear60. Great climb performance, unstable at high altitudes, terrible runway lenghts and terrible brakes.

The Hawker 800xp collins has great avionics and a larger cockpit. The airplane doesnt do anything great but does everything good.

I personally like the Hawker a little better than the Lear.

The Hawker is much more reliable. Lots less maintance problems and support from Ratheon is excellent right now.

The lear60 had lots of electrical gremlins and support sucked!

 

[Bandit60]

Learjet Pilot, Thanks for writing back. You might have misread/misunderstood what I wrote. I was saying that the Lear60 does not carry a lot of fuel. If it stayed in the low 30s (lets say for wind going West), it would not be able to complete its mission without a tech stop. The Hawker stays in the 30s initially, then completes its climb as fuel burns off and it accelerates. A 60 would burn too much fuel (Fuel on boardPH ratio) to do that, thus it has to get high to get the #s it needs to be as efficient. The 800 burns about 2K lbs total at 350 the 1st hour. Get it to 410, and it's sipping fuel.

That is not really true. I have lots of time in both types of aircraft. The one thing that always amazed me was the fact that the Lear60 was extremely fuel efficient at low altitudes. It has so much power that at low altitudes you have to pull the power back so far so you dont red line it. There have been times that I have tried to fly lower to burn fuel off because i was a little too heavy for landing and could not burn it off. (had to hold to burn fuel off)

If the 800xp had the engines of the Lear 60 that would be the perfect airplane.

 

[FracCapt]

If the 800xp had the engines of the Lear 60 that would be the perfect airplane.

Actually, I believe the XP has more thrust than the 60. I think the 60 is rated at 4600lbs a side. The new XP's coming off the line are 4660. Keep in mind, though....the XP has a MGTOW that's 4500lbs heavier than the 60. To give them the same power to weight ratio, the Hawker would need about 5500lbs a side. Now THAT would make it unbeatable in its class.

 

[thatpilotguy]

I don't have any experience in either aircraft. Raytheon has been courting us with the 800XP for a few months. I wanted to write and express my experience with Raytheon in regards to maintenance.

We operate a Beechjet (Hawker 400XP.) Although it is under warranty we have had the best customer support you can imagine. I'm sure that part of it is that the aircraft is still covered under warranty. But with that said, Raytheon has gone above and beyond more than once for us. From the owners prospective I can tell you that if price was no object he would be in an 800XP, when the time comes. The new Collins avionics and the new interior design are awesome.

I started my career in Lear Jets. They hold a special place in my heart, but when it comes down to it the day to day customer support and service that Raytheon has provided us is a real future selling point.

I just wanted to put in my 2 sense!

 

[Bandit60]

Actually, I believe the XP has more thrust than the 60. I think the 60 is rated at 4600lbs a side. The new XP's coming off the line are 4660. Keep in mind, though....the XP has a MGTOW that's 4500lbs heavier than the 60. To give them the same power to weight ratio, the Hawker would need about 5500lbs a side. Now THAT would make it unbeatable in its class.

I was really refering to the Pratts instead of the 731

 

[jeb]

I want to thank everyone for there input on this subject. We are going to do demo flights on each of the aircraft. This will at least get our CEO the chance to see which aircraft he prefers. I have put together pros and cons of each aircraft. One of the biggest concerns is lack of support by Lear Jet after the sale. I have talk to several people who fly Lear products. I know Raytheon has its problems but I believe they are addressing them. I like the range the Hawker offers, I am surprised it has take Cessna so long to develop an aircraft to compete with the Hawker in the range area.

 

[Groundpounder]

I want to thank everyone for there input on this subject. We are going to do demo flights on each of the aircraft. This will at least get our CEO the chance to see which aircraft he prefers. I have put together pros and cons of each aircraft. One of the biggest concerns is lack of support by Lear Jet after the sale. I have talk to several people who fly Lear products. I know Raytheon has its problems but I believe they are addressing them. I like the range the Hawker offers, I am surprised it has take Cessna so long to develop an aircraft to compete with the Hawker in the range area.

Isn't the Soverign designed to compete with the Hawker?

 

[some_dude]

Yes, the Sovereign was specifically designed to kick the 800's ass. If you are looking at a new 800, I would look at a Sovereign as well.

Isn't the Soverign designed to compete with the Hawker?

 

[Tony Nelson]

Flyboy Sabre 65

I currently fly a Sabre 65 and we are considering a Hawker 800 or 800XP. What are your flying impressions of the 800 compared to the Sabre 65. I love the Sabre but we are considering something a little bigger and newer.

Thanks!

 

[cosmotheassman]

Why is this even up for discussion? The cockpit in the hawker is more roomy than the 60. That's all you need to know and that's all that is important... I would word it a little diff to the boss though...

What kind of engines are on the 60 anyway? That is one quiet engine.

I saw one of NJ Sovereigns in pbi and it was kind of ugly but very roomy on the inside.