Lear 60 vs Hawker 800XP

[jeb]

Our company is looking to upgrade to midsize cabin aircraft. Our Ceo is looking for operator information on likes and dislikes about the 60 and 800XP. We have all the marketing information on both aircraft. We have a requirement to go 1500nm with six paxs. We have looked at the Excel and that won't get the job done so we are looking at these two aircraft. I know the 800 will do what we want but am a little concerned about product support. Also we have been told you have to step climb the 800 to 410? How is Lear support and are the operating cost close to what Lear claims ($1,134.00). I know there is some other aircraft that will do the job but we are looking new or 5 years old. Thanks for the help.

 

[Flyboy Sabre 65]

We just took delivery of our 800 about 2 months ago. I've only been on a couple of trip and those were fairly short legs, but from what I've seen so far it climbs really well. The crews that I've talked with say that it will climb straight to 39. Now the downside, it is not very fast. .78 is about all your going to get out of it. When your heavy and go straight to 39 you won't even get that. As far as the cabin is concerned I really love ours. It really has a lot of space.

 

[G100driver]

How is Lear support and are the operating cost close to what Lear claims ($1,134.00). I know there is some other aircraft that will do the job but we are looking new or 5 years old. Thanks for the help.

I cannot tell you about Lear support, but how many hours a year are you operating? This budget looks like about 350 hours. You should, however, be sure and add an additonal $100,000 for budgeting purposes as your aircraft is off warranty. It just takes one inspection to throw this off your budget as such you should plan for pain and hope for the best.

 

[h25b]

All around I'd go with the Hawker, that said I haven't flown a Lear 60....


As for Hawker performance, it is what it is in that you will not climb directly to 410. I really can't think of many times where you need to though. I flew the Hawker 800 for three years and it is by far the most reliable aircraft I could imagine. The cabin is better than the Learjet 60 with the only shortcoming being baggage space but if you're only carrying 6 passengers that won't be much of a problem.

The Hawker will probably out perform the Lear 60 in terms of runways requirements as well.

 

[Rick1128]

We are presently in the same boat, upgrading from a Lear 35. Right now I am evenly split between the 800XP and the 60. Here is what I have found out:

Pros

800: Large comfortable cabin
Good layout of cabin
Comfortable seating
Very reliable airframe and engines
Very good landing performance
Good T.O. performance
Very little gee whez stuff
Good range. West bound Coast to Coast most of the time
Good support
Lift dump

60: Very good T.O. performance
Exterior baggage
Good sized cabin
good layout of cabin
Good range. West bound Coast to Coast most of the time
Good speed .78 to .80
FL410 from T.O. normal, above when cool or light

Cons

800: Maintenance schedule
Bagagge, At least it is at the top of the stairs rather
than in the back
TKS
Raytheon 'built' models all have TRs
Corrosion is an issue, mostly due to TKS

60: Runway hog on landing
Lear 35 brakes
Earlier models had a lot of 'queertrons'
UNS-1 FMSs
Bombardier aka Skidoo-Jet
Fuel burn 1800/1st Hr, 1200/every additional hour

I have heard that the 60 has an AD on the engines that requires a stiff inspection on the fans every 300 hours. I have not been able to confirm that.

Both are very comfortable aircraft. If you are replacing something in the Lear 35 or Citation 2 class, your folks will be happy with either one. If they ride in the Hawker once, the Lear 60 will seem a little small. It really depends on what your boss wants and what he wants to accomplish.

Good luck.

 

[757BBJ_Capt]

Both great airplanes, but for what you are wanting to do, I think the Hawker is going to be the better tool to accomplish the goals that you have set.

Support: Bombardier is horrible. There are no 2 ways about that. I guess in Canada they do things a little differently, but ask LR45 operators and Challenger (601) operators what their experiences have been. Parts procurement is criminal. Even though they have MX facalities in the US, it gets so bad you get mad enough and and have to get HQ on the phone and they appear to be a little more concerned, but they still drop the ball. Find a 60 opeator and ask what is their most common problem. Then get on the phone and ask Bombardier if they have a part to fix that problem. That will answer your support questions. Raytheon is not much better, but they are headed in the right direction. Their RAPID program helps with part status, but actually getting the right part in hand is a crap shoot.

Range: Both airplanes will do 1500NM with 6 pax. Even though the 60 can be set up for more, it's really a 6 pax airplane, AT BEST. It's not much faster then the Hawker, but it is faster. It climbs much better and can go straight to altitude. The Hawker is a true 8 person aircraft with double club, or a 7 person aircraft with the divan. Like the 60, it could hold more, but the comfort level will deminish on a trip off that length. The problem with the Hawker climb is the pilot, not the aircraft. For some reason, HS125 pilots will climb the Hawker slow. Then, when you get to altitude, it just sits there. You have to climb it fast on a trip like you are wanting to do. Climb it no less than 270/.68. Get much slower than that, and it is going to be a long day. You will not have the best ROC, but when you get to the TOC it will actually accelerate!! If you dont mind 500-600 fpm for the last few thousand feet of the climb, that climb schedule will work out well. If you dont want to do that, climb 2K feet above your cruise altitude, then tell ATC you want lower and you'll get your speed up that way, but keep in mind, climbing slow will cost you; Keep it fast. You can get an 800 in to 3000 foot strips all day long, but I would not get into anything less than 5K. Ref speeds in the 60 are in the 130s. Hawker you'll normally see the mid to high teens and into the lower 20s. Hawker has lift dump which is a bard door, so stopping it will not be a problem. In the 800, when the mains hit, crack the buckets to idle deploy then go for the airbrake and lift dump. When you get back to the reversers, they'll be deployed and ready to do what you ask. You'll also be close to 90-80 knots, so hit the reversers but stay ready, as you'll be slowing pretty quickly and it'll be time for idle deploy. The 60 has auto spoliers, so it gets the stopping action going pretty quickly as well, but the brakes are junk (small), so if you really have to get on it, the HS125 will do the job leaving you with more room at the end. Good luck.

Our company is looking to upgrade to midsize cabin aircraft. Our Ceo is looking for operator information on likes and dislikes about the 60 and 800XP. We have all the marketing information on both aircraft. We have a requirement to go 1500nm with six paxs. We have looked at the Excel and that won't get the job done so we are looking at these two aircraft. I know the 800 will do what we want but am a little concerned about product support. Also we have been told you have to step climb the 800 to 410? How is Lear support and are the operating cost close to what Lear claims ($1,134.00). I know there is some other aircraft that will do the job but we are looking new or 5 years old. Thanks for the help.

 

[Heavy Set]

XP or XP-C?

For the Hawker, are you looking at the regular 800XP or the Collins-equipped 800XP-C? I've sat in an 800XP-C and I was pretty impressed - very clean cockpit and the pilots seemed quite happy. The 800XP-C would probably retain its value pretty well too given fewer on the market than the older XP.

 

[cl604driver]

the hawker is not even in the same boat as the Lear 60. the 60 will out perform the hawker any day no matter what conditions. Runways lengths are not even a remote thought. the 60 will climb straight to 410 at max weight and depending on isa right up to 430. you wont see a hawker do that and i think the fuel burn is less. i have also made several east coast west coast trips in the 60 and have not heard of a hawker doing that. that is my opinion but i have only flown lears and i love them. If the lear 24 had efis it would be the perfect airplane, it hauls ass, climbs like a rocket, and is limited to short flights, a perfect airplane.

 

[757BBJ_Capt]

I don't know about all that. Hawkers go coast to coast, non-stop, DAILY! Just because you have never heard of it does not mean it does not happen. It happens with greater frequency than the 60 West bound. The Hawkers will outperform the 60 on landing distances, there is not even any debating that. It's just a fact. The 60, like most lears, HAS to climb straight to high altitudes because they must be up there for the fuel burn; they really dont carry the fuel to make a 2K mile trip without doing so right off the bat. A 800 can step climb and still make the same trip. There is no mission that the Lear can do that a Hawker cannot. The 60 is a great airplane, but the Hawker is right there with it. Either would be a good choice, but for what he is doing, the Hawker would be the better aquisition. It's better to have too much than just enough or too little.

the hawker is not even in the same boat as the Lear 60. the 60 will out perform the hawker any day no matter what conditions. Runways lengths are not even a remote thought. the 60 will climb straight to 410 at max weight and depending on isa right up to 430. you wont see a hawker do that and i think the fuel burn is less. i have also made several east coast west coast trips in the 60 and have not heard of a hawker doing that. that is my opinion but i have only flown lears and i love them. If the lear 24 had efis it would be the perfect airplane, it hauls ass, climbs like a rocket, and is limited to short flights, a perfect airplane.

 

[FracCapt]

the hawker is not even in the same boat as the Lear 60. the 60 will out perform the hawker any day no matter what conditions. Runways lengths are not even a remote thought. the 60 will climb straight to 410 at max weight and depending on isa right up to 430. you wont see a hawker do that and i think the fuel burn is less. i have also made several east coast west coast trips in the 60 and have not heard of a hawker doing that.

I do coast to coast all the time in the Hawker. I do it in an 800 AND an 800XP. In all but the worst winter winds, it's not an issue unless weather is sh!t at your destination and everywhere within 300-400 miles of there. No, a Hawker won't climb straight to 430.....because ceiling is 410. Climbing straight to 410 is an option much of the time, but not all the time.....but is not really advisable if you depart at MGTOW.

Step climbing a Hawker is the best way to go if you are at MGTOW. 370 or 380 as an initial, up to 400 or 410 within an hour. Fuel burn difference is insignificant for that first hour. I flight plan for 2000 first hour, 1600 second, 1400 every hour after. This is for approximately .77 or .78M in an 800XP. 10,000lbs total fuel if you top it off.

Something else to keep in mind....most Hawkers you can top off and fill all the seats...and still be at or under MGTOW. Can you do that in a 60? I can't say...never even been inside a 60...but my recent sim partner was a 60 Captain and it sounded as if you started losing fuel once you put more than 3 or 4 pax on.