Lear 60 vs Hawker 800XP

[Rick1128]

After you use the Honeywell 8000 series FMS you will understand. You don't have to punch in codes to delete waypoints. It is much more intuitive than the UNS. And while the UNS is better than the XLS, I personally still consider the UNS to be a negative.

 

[cub46yc]

It is about a 1 in 10 chance that you are going to make east to west coast non stop in a 60. The 60 has about Five hours of range at LRC of .74 plus reserve so the winds had better be not existant. Better off to go .78 .79 and stop in sln for a 20 minute turn, wink at the cutes and still make the trip in Five hours Fifteen minutes.

 

[FracCapt]

I hear the info i got from the hawker 800XP from my numerous buddies who fly for NetJets and fly these hawkers. Most of them plan on and usually make the SLN fuel stop. I dont think they would just make up something like that.

Do you really think that they are stopping in SLN just because they need gas and it's about halfway? Not a chance. Ever been to Flower at SLN?

As I said, I do east to west all the time in a Hawker. Not sure why your numerous buddies flying the same airplane can't ever do it.

 

[some_dude]

I haven't flown either a Lear 60 or a Hawker 800, but I think that your comment about the Honeywell FMS is open to debate. The Honeywells, at least in the Sovereign, did have slightly more capability than the UNS, but I, personally, found the UNS to be far more user friendly and intuitive.

I would consider the UNS to be a positive.

After you use the Honeywell 8000 series FMS you will understand. You don't have to punch in codes to delete waypoints. It is much more intuitive than the UNS. And while the UNS is better than the XLS, I personally still consider the UNS to be a negative.

 

[757BBJ_Capt]

757BBJ, it seems that you dont know much about the lear 60. You say it burn alot of gas and that my friend is your first wrong answer about the 60.

Learjet Pilot, Thanks for writing back. You might have misread/misunderstood what I wrote. I was saying that the Lear60 does not carry a lot of fuel. If it stayed in the low 30s (lets say for wind going West), it would not be able to complete its mission without a tech stop. The Hawker stays in the 30s initially, then completes its climb as fuel burns off and it accelerates. A 60 would burn too much fuel (Fuel on boardPH ratio) to do that, thus it has to get high to get the #s it needs to be as efficient. The 800 burns about 2K lbs total at 350 the 1st hour. Get it to 410, and it's sipping fuel.

 

[757BBJ_Capt]

The Honeywell nz2000 is a great FMS. The UNS series are nice as well. What's nice about the nz2000 is that it makes you think. I don't know if they did that on purpose, but to input into it, you really have to be familiar with what it is that you are trying to do in terms of the nav fixes. For example, you can set a waypoint based on 2 crossing VORs or airways. For example it ATC tells you to take J6 to J152 (dont know if they really cross, just made that up for the example), and they just intersect with no fix to set up. Or if you want to get deep into the unit, you can set your angle of decent, speed at that point, and altitude you want to be when you get there and it will start you down. Now all of that is not a big deal, but what is nice is there is a feature that allows you to go direct vertically to that point at anytime. So, you can set it up no matter where you are in the flight to descend the aircraft to that point giving you the angle you have pre programmed. A magenta glideslpoe will come up and take you vertically to that point. Another nice thing is the NZ2000s will allow you to give yourself an extended center line at a distance of your choosing, thus allowing you to set up a glideslope to any runway threshhold in its database. I know the Collins will do that as well, but I have never heard of a UNS unit being able to do that.

I haven't flown either a Lear 60 or a Hawker 800, but I think that your comment about the Honeywell FMS is open to debate. The Honeywells, at least in the Sovereign, did have slightly more capability than the UNS, but I, personally, found the UNS to be far more user friendly and intuitive.

I would consider the UNS to be a positive.

 

[h25b]

The longest leg I have been able to get out of a Hawker 800A was 5 hrs. 52 min. from Whitehorse to Chicage MDW. I seem to remember that being pretty much the limit for that aircraft and I don't recall if the XP does any more than that...

As for the FMS, I'm now using the Universal in the Learjet 31A and dearly miss the Honeywell. By far a better box.

Another nice thing is the NZ2000s will allow you to give yourself an extended center line at a distance of your choosing, thus allowing you to set up a glideslope to any runway threshhold in its database. I know the Collins will do that as well, but I have never heard of a UNS unit being able to do that.

You can sort of accomplish this with the Universal UNS-1C by setting up a VFR approach (I think that's what it's called), but it is a major pain in the arse to set-up and this capability is one of the things that I miss about the Honeywell...

 

[Groundpounder]

What kind of performance does the Hawker 800 winglet mod add?

 

[vixin]

You can so set up a glide path with any runway on the UNS. Its been a while since I have done it because I just do the math in my head when vfr. I will have to go play with it and get back as to how. If I remember right its not that complicated.

 

[G100driver]

You can so set up a glide path with any runway on the UNS. Its been a while since have done it because I just do the math in my head when vfr. I will have to go play with it and get back as to how. If I remember right its not that complicated.

We used to do it all the time, especially on no VASI/PAPI runways. I have not used the Honeywell before, but the VFR approach mode on the Collins is much easier to set up than the UNS.

 

[vixin]

Learjet Pilot, Thanks for writing back. You might have misread/misunderstood what I wrote. I was saying that the Lear60 does not carry a lot of fuel. If it stayed in the low 30s (lets say for wind going West), it would not be able to complete its mission without a tech stop. The Hawker stays in the 30s initially, then completes its climb as fuel burns off and it accelerates. A 60 would burn too much fuel (Fuel on boardPH ratio) to do that, thus it has to get high to get the #s it needs to be as efficient. The 800 burns about 2K/side at 350 the 1st hour. Get it to 410, and it's sipping fuel.

4000 lbs the first hour...ouch. The 60 carries 7800 lbs. burns 1800 1st hour goes straight to 410. Using your same numbers the hawker would burn to much in the low 30's. If 4000 is correct that 2200 more then the 60 1st hour. The hawker carries 10,000 minus the additional 2200 you are left with the same 7800lbs. Both would have 6000 after the 1st hour. If you get a 60 make sure it has the brake mod and engine inspection IBR. Longest I have been up in the 60 was 5:45 and that my friends is plenty of Lear butt. In the 60 you NEVER hear please increase your climb rate. It is always what is your climb rate.

 

[Clutch_Cargo]

4000 lbs the first hour...ouch. The 60 carries 7800 lbs. burns 1800 1st hour goes straight to 410. Using your same numbers the hawker would burn to much in the low 30's. If 4000 is correct that 2200 more then the 60 1st hour. The hawker carries 10,000 minus the additional 2200 you are left with the same 7800lbs. Both would have 6000 after the 1st hour. If you get a 60 make sure it has the brake mod and engine inspection IBR. Longest I have been up in the 60 was 5:45 and that my friends is plenty of Lear butt. In the 60 you NEVER hear please increase your climb rate. It is always what is your climb rate.

Naw... that's not right... I think he meant 2000 TOTAL 1st hour burn. I used to figure 2100 1st hour, 1600 hours 2 & 3 and 1400 each hour after and that is being a little conservative. That was a straight 800 and figuring going to 350/370 to start. Can't comment on the 60 but the Hawker is a great bird and I think it would do well for Rick's missions.

cc

 

[LJ45]

UNS 1c

The Honeywell nz2000 is a great FMS. The UNS series are nice as well. What's nice about the nz2000 is that it makes you think. I don't know if they did that on purpose, but to input into it, you really have to be familiar with what it is that you are trying to do in terms of the nav fixes. For example, you can set a waypoint based on 2 crossing VORs or airways. For example it ATC tells you to take J6 to J152 (dont know if they really cross, just made that up for the example), and they just intersect with no fix to set up. Or if you want to get deep into the unit, you can set your angle of decent, speed at that point, and altitude you want to be when you get there and it will start you down. Now all of that is not a big deal, but what is nice is there is a feature that allows you to go direct vertically to that point at anytime. So, you can set it up no matter where you are in the flight to descend the aircraft to that point giving you the angle you have pre programmed. A magenta glideslpoe will come up and take you vertically to that point. Another nice thing is the NZ2000s will allow you to give yourself an extended center line at a distance of your choosing, thus allowing you to set up a glideslope to any runway threshhold in its database. I know the Collins will do that as well, but I have never heard of a UNS unit being able to do that.

UNS 1c will do everything you talked about ..except the speed.

 

[vixin]

Clutch,

I thought that was a little high. TNX

 

[757BBJ_Capt]

Sorry, I did mean 2000 total the 1st hour. I'll try to edit it.

Naw... that's not right... I think he meant 2000 TOTAL 1st hour burn. I used to figure 2100 1st hour, 1600 hours 2 & 3 and 1400 each hour after and that is being a little conservative. That was a straight 800 and figuring going to 350/370 to start. Can't comment on the 60 but the Hawker is a great bird and I think it would do well for Rick's missions.

cc