LAS Picket huge success

[realityman]

Sorry Publishers, not buying it. Don't you think finding BOTH your pilots asleep at the controls is a very serious problem? Would you really wait TWO WEEKS before letting the company know about it?! If I found my flight crew asleep at the controls, rest assured I'd be on the phone the minute that plane landed! Heck, I might even pick up the flight phone and call before landing!

Secondly, please keep in mind that these crew memebers were dismissed BEFORE any facts of the situation were investigated (only going by what the owner said). Please reread my previous posts to find out what is slowly becoming known.

Third, in the past there have been many occasions where an owner didn't like something a pilot did, or even accused a crew of breaking rules. Those crews were not fired. It's only now that labor negotiations are becoming contentious that this sort of thing is happening. Sorry, I'm not a conspiracy theorist, but I can put 2 and 2 together.

Finally, we have (not including NJI and NJE) over 500 aircraft and 2100 pilots. It's highly unlikely that the company would have any problem scheduling a client around 2 pilots. It's already being done. In fact, they even have ways of not scheduling 2 pilots together if they don't get along. No biggy.

Yes, it very well could be that the crew DID fall asleep. But one would think an investigation would take place, maybe with the crew on unpaid leave, before the actual termination. Again, sorry, but this is definitely an intimidation tactic. We expect nothing less under the present circumstances of the negotiations, but that doesn't change what it is.

Dispatcher, you are entirely correct. It is ALWAYS up to the crew to determine if they're fit to fly, including a self-fatigue evaluation. However, that doesn't relieve the company of a certain responsibility to at least attmept to schedule in such a way to help minimize the necessity of fatigue calls. If my flight doesn't leave until 0700, then why am I being brought out to the airport at 0300? This kind of thing MUST stop or the efficiency of this operation will continue to erode, especially in light of the fact that we will have to start shutting things down earlier because of these new consequences of fatigue and how the company has now chosen to deal with pilots and discipline.

 

[Publishers]

Something happened-- I do not know what--- do not know when-- and am only assuming that the owner complained. My point was that you are a crew services organization and if an owner says never send that crew again, that crew has a problem, not the owner.

Unlike an airline, you guys live on owner satisfaction. Passenger complaints really do not mean much on an airline, they have little pilot interface. At Netjets it is the main business. Let me assure you that Netjets is not going to tell an owner he has to take a particular crew.

I do not know or claim to know what information who had or what justified termination etc. My point was to indicate the thinking that I think leads to this management battle when I do not even think you all understand sometimes what business this is. Netjets could do this business without pilots ----albeit a difficult task -- and make a similar return. The pilots would be like EJM aircraft or Delta Air Elite and have crews by aircraft.

 

[FAcFriend]

Don't you think finding BOTH your pilots asleep at the controls is a very serious problem? Would you really wait TWO WEEKS before letting the company know about it?!

Like publishers, I dont know all the details- timing etc. But i think you are off base when you think it is odd that they waited two weeks before it was reported unless you have more information.

Things that are very important to you - are incidental to others.
Would it matter if they had reported it immediately? Maybe they had more important things to attend to and this was one of many on their list.

 

[FredGarvin]

Did you know... they have fired pilots for calling in fatigued.

May have, I was not aware of that. Proabably before my time. I know if they fired everybody who called in fatigued these days, they would loose a dozen guys a day.

If anybody gets fired it should be whoever is responsible for the horrible abuse of circadian rythms and the Supervisory error of upper management.

What part of 91k covers circadian rythms and what are the rules regarding?

 

[realityman]

Publishers, that has got to be one of the most misinformed posts I've ever read on this forum. I've been flying for NJA for almost 8.5 years now, and you think I don't understand the busines? Not the financial side of it, the customer service side of it. It's obvious that you don't really understand our clients. One of the most common things attempted by our clients is to complain about something, the plane, flightcrew, catering, whatever, in an attempt to either get that flight free, or at a reduced rate. It happens many times. So anytime there's a complaint from a client, it's the crew's problem?!

"My point was that you are a crew services organization and if an owner says never send that crew again, that crew has a problem, not the owner. "

Wrong! If an owner says that, it's the COMPANY'S problem. The company has an obligation to investigate the complaint and then take appropriate action. Many times it turns out to be a scenario like what I described in my first paragraph. Heck, I remember a certain flightcrew that was accused by an owner of making racial epithets. That's a pretty serious allegation, and could have resulted in lawsuits from the owner and the pilot's dismissal had they proven to be true. Fortunately, back then the company did things the proper way and investigated. It turned out to be totally false and the owner was, in fact, just trying to get the flight for free.

So why on earth should a crew be fired just from an allegation?! Maybe they were sleeping, maybe they weren't. At any rate, Netjets really doesn't have a problem keeping one or two pilots away from a certain owner without resorting to termination of the pilots. We are a very large company. I stick by my stance that this is merely an intimidation tactic that's going to backfire in their faces as we proceed with far more caution than normal from fear of wrongful terminations. Delays and canceled flights. But at least we won't be fired for not following the rules.

Not a good management tactic.
Oh, and I guess I'm a little slow today. How would Netjets run the operation without the pilots? Would they be selling shares in those unmanned planes the air force uses? The Raptor I think.

 

[El Chupacabra]

What is the company doing to prevent Fatigued Pilots from flying aircraft?

Are they negotiating shorter crewdays for the next CBA? Are they negotiating longer rest periods?

What are they doing?

 

[realityman]

Oops! I think that air force plane is The Predator.

 

[dsptchrnja]

>>>
Dispatcher, you are entirely correct. It is ALWAYS up to the crew to determine if they're fit to fly, including a self-fatigue evaluation. However, that doesn't relieve the company of a certain responsibility to at least attmept to schedule in such a way to help minimize the necessity of fatigue calls. If my flight doesn't leave until 0700, then why am I being brought out to the airport at 0300? This kind of thing MUST stop or the efficiency of this operation will continue to erode, especially in light of the fact that we will have to start shutting things down earlier because of these new consequences of fatigue and how the company has now chosen to deal with pilots and discipline.

I agree, it sucks, it really does. Welcome to 91K. That has nothing to do with NetJets. I also agree that the company should do all it can to schedule crews in a way that does not inhibit your rest. A scheduler would best better able to describe the challenges associated with this, which I am not one.

 

[El Chupacabra]

welcome to 91k?

91K is a vast improvement from when they use to just call me at 0200 or 0300 for an ASAP. How could they possibly believe I was adequately rested?

What time did they think I went to sleep?

Also we are not under 91K rest rules... We use 135 rest rules which was available to the company for many years.

 

[dsptchrnja]

B.S! It happens and it's not a game. The most recent occurance I'm aware of was about two years ago. The pilot called in fatigued and was terminated on the spot. He was off the payroll for about a year. The union filed a grievance and he was reinstated following arbritation.

You are helping me make my point. There is a big difference between saying it happened and it happens. This is not a regular occurance which, if you read this board, is almost being suggested. Crews call in fatigued daily. Your example happened 2 years ago. And it sounds as though the company made a mistake, and if so, it is an unfortunate occurance which they probably learned a lesson. So who is now going to be more on edge about this issue because of that lesson... the company or the crews?