Larger aircraft for Eagle?

[InclusiveScope]

Mr. Peter Bowler, President
American Eagle Airlines
1700 West 20th Street
PO Box 612527
DFW Airport, Texas 74261-2527

October 17, 2003

Dear Peter,

On Oct. 17, Gerard Arpey was quoted in a Dallas Morning News article as
saying that he would like to sit down with the unions "to try and figure
out if we need a 100-seat airplane."

Knowing that AMR has a corporate interest in this issue, the pilots of
American Eagle, represented by the Air Line Pilots Association, would
like to inform you of our interest in placing larger aircraft, such as
the EMB 190 at our carrier. We believe the American Eagle cost
structure provides an inherent advantage in any effort to compete in
markets with lower cost carriers such as JetBlue Airways.

American Eagle is a robust company that can expand nicely into markets
that cannot be profitably served by American Airlines as it is currently
structured. With the advent of Small Jet aircraft in the 70-seat-plus
range, we believe that Eagle is uniquely positioned to take advantage of
the growth in this particular market sector. Additionally, since
American Eagle already operates Embraer aircraft, transitioning pilots,
mechanics, flight attendants, and ramp workers to the EMB
170/175/190/195 poses obvious advantages due to Eagle's cost structure
and commonality with our current Embraer aircraft.

We would be happy to discuss the details of this matter with you at your
convenience.

Sincerely,


Capt. Herb Mark, chairman
Eagle ALPA MEC


__________________

 

[WrightAvia]

why is it that eagle and mesa are considered ROBUST?

American Eagle is a robust company that can expand nicely into markets

Are the EAGLE guys, the ones that will be stealing the jet jobs from Mesaba?

 

[amcnd]

Eagle has nothing to do with Mesaba!! All Eagle flying is done on behalf of American. ( with a few other codeshare partners on the west coast, but all aircraft are in AA paint.)

 

[Ivan Yankenoff]

Why in the hell is Eagle offering to fly an obvious mainline aircraft? Could we as a profession destroy ourselves anymore? If Eagle does get the EMB190's they better be at mainline rates or there is definitely going to be a mass amount of emails going to Duane before he hopefully overrides any TA. Either that or they should go to furloughed American pilots at mainline rates.

 

[WrightAvia]

Eagle has nothing to do with Mesaba!! All Eagle flying is done on behalf of American. ( with a few other codeshare partners on the west coast, but all aircraft are in AA paint.)

So you're telling me that it's IMPOSSIBLE for American Eagle, to accept a code sharing agreement with Northwest Airlines flying jets in place of Mesaba's soon to be gone AVRO's, just because of a paint job?

Eagle must be robust, to be able to turn down business in this day and age.

 

[amcnd]

Im not saying it is IMPOSSIBLE, but Eagle's mision, "is to strengthen the AA network" not bid on flying for other airlines. To date Eagle has never bid on flying for anyone else. Not even AA , AA just tells us how much tey are going to pay us. Then we try to male it profitable. As long as Eagle is owned by AMR it wont hapen.

 

[Jake2003]

Isn't Mesaba going with there other carrier - Pinnicle (sp)? Didn't Eagle bid and fly for Delta shortly after 9/11 out of LA? American, Alaska, North-West & Continental are all code share partners.

 

[English]

Eagle bid for United Express flying in LAX as recently as a year ago. My spouse asked this question directly to the chief pilot in LAX. The chief pilot called DFW HQ and was told, "Yes in fact we did bid for United Express/SkyWest flying in LAX."

 

[surplus1]

Why in the hell is Eagle offering to fly an obvious mainline aircraft?

Who says the EMB190 is an "obvious mainline aircraft"? Did you get that from some patronizing mainline pilot group?

If mainline pilots can "bid" for obvious regional aircraft and take regional pilots' jobs in the process, like the American pilots are currently doing to Eagle, the U pilots are doing to Chautauqua, Mesa, TSA, Midway, ALG, PDT, PSA, why can't the Eagle pilots protect their jobs by bidding on any new flying they can get?

Could we as a profession destroy ourselves anymore?

Why would we be destroying ourselves? Who is "we"? The mainline pilots don't seem to include folks like you in their definition of "we", so why are you including them?

If Eagle does get the EMB190's they better be at mainline rates or there is definitely going to be a mass amount of emails going to Duane before he hopefully overrides any TA. Either that or they should go to furloughed American pilots at mainline rates.

Guys that think like you are the reason people like Duane and his buddys can screw regional pilots for the benefit of mainline pilots and have you think they are doing you a "favor".

There is no such thing as a "mainline rate". Your rate is what you negotiate. Have you failed to observe that "mainline" pilots are already bidding to fly "regional jets" at "regional rates" or lower?Considering that you just joined the ranks of those willing to undercut other regional contracts so that you can get promised "growth", which will be flying taken from other regional carriers, like ACA, CMR, ASA, etc., it is little wonder that you say those things.

Don't forget that the American pilots have offered to fly Eagle aircraft at a "cost advantage" over Eagle, so that they can steal those jobs from Eagle pilots. Don't forget that they are moving into Eagle cockpits and displacing Eagle Captains, at rates far in excess of any "flow through beneifts" ever realized by Eagle pilots. U pilots have already agreed to fly 70-seat regional jets for "Eagle rates" to create their own little alter ego of Mid Atlantic and prevent pilots at ALG and PDT from progressing while they "give the jobs to Mesa" in an exchange for Jets for Jobs and super seniority. Don't forget that they forced your pilot group to give up your seniority and reverse your vote by making it possible to create Republic so that "they" could get your jobs, your captain seats, and more money than you get for the same work, while they fly in your airline.

You might do well to figure out who your friends are and stop sucking up to the very people that would give anything to eliminate your existence so that they can take your jobs. You, and many like you, are letting them pull the wool over your eyes while they feed you more and more Kool Aide and make you promises that they have no intention of keeping and could not keep if they wanted to.

You need to realize that they don't give a dam* about what you're paid. If they can take your flying and put you on the street they would do it in a hearbeat and every one of them is trying to do just that, by any means they and their tool Duane can think of.

Wake up and smell the coffee man. If you want to fly a 737 go ahead and apply for the job, but meanwhile you'd better work on hanging on to what you have and getting anything else that you can from those who would take from you. That's what "they" are doing to you. Instead, you're busy undercutting other regional pilots and gawking over the possible EMB170 that you "might" get, while you throw rocks at the Mesa pilots for doing the same thing.

Thank goodness there are people at Eagle that seem smart enough to recognize it and fight back. Sometimes it is necessary to fight fire with fire and give them a dose of their own medicine. Kudis to the Eagle pilots for waking up to reality.

Is a bidding war good for "the profession"? NO, it is not, but if mainline pilots are willing to steal jobs from regional pilots, which they are, then this regional pilot is equally willing to protect his own livelihood against them. They do not even include people like you and me in "the profession".

Nothing personal buddy, it's just business. "Charity begins at home."

 

[NYRANGERS]

Who says the EMB190 is an "obvious mainline aircraft"? Did you get that from some patronizing mainline pilot group?

If mainline pilots can "bid" for obvious regional aircraft and take regional pilots' jobs in the process, like the American pilots are currently doing to Eagle, the U pilots are doing to Chautauqua, Mesa, TSA, Midway, ALG, PDT, PSA, why can't the Eagle pilots protect their jobs by bidding on any new flying they can get?



Why would we be destroying ourselves? Who is "we"? The mainline pilots don't seem to include folks like you in their definition of "we", so why are you including them?



Guys that think like you are the reason people like Duane and his buddys can screw regional pilots for the benefit of mainline pilots and have you think they are doing you a "favor".

There is no such thing as a "mainline rate". Your rate is what you negotiate. Have you failed to observe that "mainline" pilots are already bidding to fly "regional jets" at "regional rates" or lower?Considering that you just joined the ranks of those willing to undercut other regional contracts so that you can get promised "growth", which will be flying taken from other regional carriers, like ACA, CMR, ASA, etc., it is little wonder that you say those things.

Don't forget that the American pilots have offered to fly Eagle aircraft at a "cost advantage" over Eagle, so that they can steal those jobs from Eagle pilots. Don't forget that they are moving into Eagle cockpits and displacing Eagle Captains, at rates far in excess of any "flow through beneifts" ever realized by Eagle pilots. U pilots have already agreed to fly 70-seat regional jets for "Eagle rates" to create their own little alter ego of Mid Atlantic and prevent pilots at ALG and PDT from progressing while they "give the jobs to Mesa" in an exchange for Jets for Jobs and super seniority. Don't forget that they forced your pilot group to give up your seniority and reverse your vote by making it possible to create Republic so that "they" could get your jobs, your captain seats, and more money than you get for the same work, while they fly in your airline.

You might do well to figure out who your friends are and stop sucking up to the very people that would give anything to eliminate your existence so that they can take your jobs. You, and many like you, are letting them pull the wool over your eyes while they feed you more and more Kool Aide and make you promises that they have no intention of keeping and could not keep if they wanted to.

You need to realize that they don't give a dam* about what you're paid. If they can take your flying and put you on the street they would do it in a hearbeat and every one of them is trying to do just that, by any means they and their tool Duane can think of.

Wake up and smell the coffee man. If you want to fly a 737 go ahead and apply for the job, but meanwhile you'd better work on hanging on to what you have and getting anything else that you can from those who would take from you. That's what "they" are doing to you. Instead, you're busy undercutting other regional pilots and gawking over the possible EMB170 that you "might" get, while you throw rocks at the Mesa pilots for doing the same thing.

Thank goodness there are people at Eagle that seem smart enough to recognize it and fight back. Sometimes it is necessary to fight fire with fire and give them a dose of their own medicine. Kudis to the Eagle pilots for waking up to reality.

Is a bidding war good for "the profession"? NO, it is not, but if mainline pilots are willing to steal jobs from regional pilots, which they are, then this regional pilot is equally willing to protect his own livelihood against them. They do not even include people like you and me in "the profession".

Nothing personal buddy, it's just business. "Charity begins at home."

How much longer until you retire?

I'm not sure if AA has any scope language left, but if they do.....that would answer your first question.

It's too bad smart and articulate guys like you can't see how this would be bad for the profession. I don't think you understand where people like you will take this profession. Do you think there should be a line? Or should the Eagle guys replace the 100 request with......ALL of AA's aircraft.

I've noticed that many of the younger pilots on this board (low time, or just learning to fly), no longer aspire to fly......example 747's internationaly, or for a Global Major. It's just an observation, and I suppose when the Global Majors hire again, those dreams and aspirations may resurface.

 

[NYRANGERS]

Is a bidding war good for "the profession"? NO, it is not, but if mainline pilots are willing to steal jobs from regional pilots, which they are, then this regional pilot is equally willing to protect his own livelihood against them. They do not even include people like you and me in "the profession".

Nothing personal buddy, it's just business. "Charity begins at home."

What? How many jobs has DCI lost to the evil mainline?How many have Eagle lost to AA? (granted I know there was an attempt at AA. That was wrong and I am glad it was stopped).

We have not stolen a single job from DCI. Our biggest mistake was to give them away in the first place. Now we have to live with all this "job stealing" BS.

You continue to try and play the victim and garner sympathy from the uninformed. Your situation and Eagle's are not the same. I guess you are just exploiting their situation to try and get more people to feel sorry for you and your poor GROWING airline.

NYR

 

[NYRANGERS]

Apolgies to the Eagle guys. We know where this thread is headed.

NYR

Awaiting Surplus's next four part disertation.

 

[surplus1]

How much longer until you retire?

Not much but that won't get rid of me. Sorry to disappoint. Yeah, I know, I'm just a bitter old man that didn't make it. Right?

I'm not sure if AA has any scope language left, but if they do.....that would answer your first question.

They do, like all the others. Strangely their scope language doesn't seem to keep them from bidding on "permitted aircraft types". Therefore, it shouldn't keep the "permitted" from bidding on scoped aircraft types. What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. They are the one's that crossed the line. As a result, there is nothing wrong with crossing it in the opposite direction. Remember the axiom ... "Be careful what you ask for, you might get it."

It's too bad smart and articulate guys like you can't see how this would be bad for the profession.

I agree competely that it is bad for the profession. You must however understand that my need to survive supercedes the altruistically perceived needs of the profession. Particularly when those advocating that I yield for the good of the profession do not even acknoweldge that I am a member, and an equal member, of the profession.

It is always bad for the profession for one segment of it to attempt to take from another segment. In this case, the AA pilots have no concern that it is bad for the profession to take from the Eagle pilots. When you elect to declare war on another group, you must expect there will be consequences.

What is unfortunate is that one segment of the profession wears blinders and believes that what they do is good for the profession while anything else done by the other segment is bad. In reality, it must work both ways or the premise of "the profession" is void.

I don't think you understand where people like you will take this profession. Do you think there should be a line? Or should the Eagle guys replace the 100 request with......ALL of AA's aircraft.

I do understand where these policies will take the profession and I am not at all happy about it. However they are not my policies nor were they instituted by "people like me". History records that the errant policies were created by "people like you." It's a sorry mess. However, that does not translate to allowing one segment to take advantage of the other "for the good of the profession". WE all have the same profession. It is that of airline pilot, not "mainline airline pilot." We are simply employed by different companies some of which are far better than others, but we are all just airline pilots.

Anything that hurts mainline pilots is bad for the profession. Anything that hurts regional pilots is equally bad for the profession. That's the part that mainline pilots don't seem to comprehend. I want what is good for all the profession, not just your segment of it. I would hope you would want the same.

You ask if I think there should be a line. The answer and with no hesitation, is YES, by all means.

I do not have a problem because there is a line. I have a problem because your segment has decided that YOU and you alone have the exclusive right to draw that line unilaterally, and further, to re-draw the line whenever you choose, regardless of the impact that your whim-of-the-month may have on the careers and lives of people like me. I will never accept that concept and believe that anyone who does is extremely naive.

The "line" must be drawn by mutual agreement between the parties. Anything else is arbitrary and nothing more than a tool of control that gives your segment an unfair advantage over my segment. As soon as that (mutual agreement) happens, WE will be able to devote our time to fending off attacks on "the profession", instead of wasting our time defending against attacks from each other.

I don't want to be against you, but neither do I want you to be against me. This can't work until WE decide that we must both be equally for each other. If we do not work together, it will evolve to a bidding war between us for each other's flying. That is what I predicted nearly two years ago. It appears that we get closer with each passing day.

I've noticed that many of the younger pilots on this board (low time, or just learning to fly), no longer aspire to fly......example 747's internationaly, or for a Global Major. It's just an observation, and I suppose when the Global Majors hire again, those dreams and aspirations may resurface.

I am optimistic that the same dreams are still there and will not go away. Everyone that is normal aspires to the best that he/she is able to achieve. That is good, and it will continue.

In the meantime it is not healthy to sacrifice each other in this foolish war of greed or expediency. Future aspirations, lofty as they may be, do not feed my family today. I believe that the policies of the major airline groups and thier dominated unions have fostered animosity between us, brought us to the brink of Civil War, and blindly continue on that course. I feel that they need to be changed and that there is not much time left in which it may be done successfully. Peace is always better than the alternatives. I want to work in that direction, but I will not sacrifice our freedom to exist on the altar of your desires to control all at my expense. That is too much to ask or to expect.

If I wish to survive and believe me I do, then I must prevent you from establishing a line that constantly moves to your advantage and my detriment. I would rather do that with you but if you are unwilling, as is the case, then I must do it without you. If there is to be a solution to the dilemma, we must find a way to draw the line jointly and to each accept that it cannot be redrawn without the mutual consent of the affected parties.

Is that really in left field?

 

[surplus1]

Surplus go f*ck yourself, it's quite obvious that you have no desire to leave the great Comair, but for most regional pilots they do aspire to make it to a major someday. You need to get a life instead of posting your long-winded diatribe BS about how the majors are conspiring to screw you out of growth, routes and planes that are theirs to begin with.

About all I can say is that the quality of your comments match the quality of you avatar. For your sake, I hope the latter is not truly indicative of who and what you are, but I confess I suspect otherwise.

 

[surplus1]

What? How many jobs has DCI lost to the evil mainline?How many have Eagle lost to AA? (granted I know there was an attempt at AA. That was wrong and I am glad it was stopped).

We have not stolen a single job from DCI. Our biggest mistake was to give them away in the first place. Now we have to live with all this "job stealing" BS.

You continue to try and play the victim and garner sympathy from the uninformed. Your situation and Eagle's are not the same. I guess you are just exploiting their situation to try and get more people to feel sorry for you and your poor GROWING airline.

NYR

NYR, your original post was far better than this one. We aren't talking about DCI, this is about AA and Eagle.

Yes, there was an attempt, Yes it was wrong, and NO it has not been stopped. Thay is why the Eagle pilots are responding as they are.

They are currently being displaced from their jobs in numbers that exceed by far the terms of their flow agreement. The effort to transfer their 70-seaters failed (only temporarily), so now the seats are being taken by AA pilots. Six of one, half dozen of the other.

 

[General Lee]

Surplus1,

I can understand that you may want to fly a larger airplane to gain extra pay, but those planes do belong on mainline since they would be replacing mainline aircraft. AA will be parking their 100 seater--the F100---and this would be a replacement. Taking these would be a direct attempt and taking away higher paying jobs that the Eagle guys could be entitled to someday.....Going to mainline equals a boost in benefits and salary---and taking those jobs down to the regionals takes away part of those better benefits. The only reason I have been talking about the 70 seaters is because I would like to address the problem of over 1000 furloughs at Delta. AA no doubt has the same problem. Let's get these guys/gals back into the cockpits....

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[InclusiveScope]

Surplus1,

I can understand that you may want to fly a larger airplane to gain extra pay, but those planes do belong on mainline since they would be replacing mainline aircraft. AA will be parking their 100 seater--the F100---and this would be a replacement. Taking these would be a direct attempt and taking away higher paying jobs that the Eagle guys could be entitled to someday.....Going to mainline equals a boost in benefits and salary---and taking those jobs down to the regionals takes away part of those better benefits. The only reason I have been talking about the 70 seaters is because I would like to address the problem of over 1000 furloughs at Delta. AA no doubt has the same problem. Let's get these guys/gals back into the cockpits....

Bye Bye--General Lee

General,
You say that "taking these jobs would be a direct attempt and taking away higher paying jobs that the Eagle guys COULD be entitled to SOMEDAY" That is your quote. Two problems with that quote:

1. Mainline pilots have had no problem TAKING things from regional pilots thru "jetsforjobs" type scams.

2. Keeping #1 in mind, why should I give a dam* about you considering that you are willing to take from me and that my reward "COULD" result in something for me "SOMEDAY".

If you want to work with me, then give me a WRITTEN guarantee signed by our union that tells me what I will gain. If not, you can pound sand and suffer the consequences. If we are together, then we need to be on the same list. If we are separate, then I will do what is best for ME.

Surplus,
Well said as usual. I admire your patience, and thank you for your service.

Inclusivescope

 

[General Lee]

Inclusivescope,

Is this coming from someone who doesn't think he/she will ever make it to a major? That could easily cloud your vision and give you the "give me it---it should be mine" attitude. I can't believe that you guys can't see that the 100 seater should be mainline--since it will be repalacing a mainline aircraft directly--the 737-200. We have well over 1000 pilots on the street, and you guys want to expand more at their expense. Amazing. If the aircraft were not a 737, the rates would probably be a lot lower anyways, and the economics could be worked out. Management is trying to take advantage of this down time by seeing how low everyone can get---and I bet you guys have already given offers. Dalpa will not give that up.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[727RedTails]

Boo who Boo who Boo who Boo who Boo who Boo who Boo who

We should all feel so sorry for that select group of Comair guys, I get so tired of hearing that RJDC crap on the ALPA board now we have to listen to it here. Look Surplus1, I understand you work for a decent regional, but for most of us the goal is the majors for pay, schedules and retirement.

SO AS LONG AS THERE ARE MORE AIRCRAFT AT THE MAJORS THE MORE OF US HAVE A CHANCE TO REACH THAT GOAL.

Doesn't American already have 100 seaters in the F100's. Just because Eagle flys EMB a/c doesn't mean all EMB flying should be done by Eagle. It has historically been mainline flying and for the good of our profession we should keep it that way. If I didn't know any better I would think all the RJDC people were working for management. You guys are like a plague, please stay away.

 

[jetexas]

EGL ALPA is merely making a grab for postitions they know they would likely never see otherwise.

The problem with the Eagle/AA relationship is that Eagle has historically been given a dismal shot at AA jobs when times are good. The flow through was a joke. AA showed they would much rather hire "non-Eagle" pilots. Eagle pilots were left with realisitic alternatives which were to work for another regional or fly for a competitor of AA.

APA squandered chances to merge Eagle over the years. Now Eagle is slowly growing. Its a sad catch 22. The pilots of regionals should want to slow their own progression in favor of prosperity to the majors. However, if this is done, it has been shown that they would not reap the benefits. The only thing left to do is the natural thing, which is to try and better ones current position.

The will of the regional pilot to see themselves grow could be far less if, in good times, the pilots of majors would be far more active in helping to get regional pilots across the fence.