Just got this e-mail.

[8HourPilot]

That $hit is classic, well played.

 

[labbats]

I gave them a call about their FTD, and received this link from them.

Flight Training Device Photo.

The sad thing is that United already sent her an application.

 

[AvroJockey]

It is amazing what a little bit of logic will do. Too bad ALPA national hasn't thought of that yet...

According to Tom Wychor, they have! It all comes down to getting the single seniorty list first...but that idea gets shot down every year at some ALPA National conference. Evidently, the growing pains would be too hard to handle. Like none of us have gone through anything hard recently!

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

The hiring minimums are set through negotiations (the CBA)...I would make it a strike item!!! The goal is not to set higher wages to attract qualified pilots, but define what's a qualified pilot and attract higher wages. Economically speaking, if you decrease the supply of labor by setting higher minimums, you naturally end up with higher wages. Instead of ALPA setting the wages (which is a proven failure, just look at our wages relative to inflation over the years...pathetic!!!!!!!!!), the company has to raise wages on their own to attract pilots who meet the minimums.

HOW? How are you going to get managmeent to agree on hirinig mins? Or what are you willing to give up to be able to do so? Scope? pay? Work rules? In addition you'd have to do this on a national wide scale. Deal with the ATA?

That's not a valid argument! The reason lies with the instant gratification that all American's must have! Merging seniority lists will certainly cause growing pains for some, but the long term gains would be worth it.

I think it is a valid arguement. If it was a great idea it would be true. Is ALPA waiting for an revelation from Flightinfo?

Tell me...what are the advantages of separate seniority lists over single?

A pilot group is directly related to its company. After EAL and PAA closed down, your single seniority list would have EAL and PAA pilots going to UAL, DAL and NWA by date of hire? (or how?) Why should a senior UAL pilot be junior to a EAL pilot at UAL?

A single list would make secure pilots on a list pay for the mistakes of another managements poor performance. In addition, the same guys would stay employed as they shuffled around.. meanwhile it would take forever for new pilots to get in. An apprentice pilot would have to wait till he was 45+ before he'd get a job. Sure he got a union card at 25 but what is he/she supposed to do for 20 years? Start another career? Then the union calls and says.. come fly jets. Now he is going to leave a good career? At least doctors can be doctors right away.

Also.. how are you going to get management to hire a pilot from EAL or PAA and start paying him at seniority/longevity pay? Management want's to interview, screen and select. Basically you are saying ALPA would dictate to the airlines who they shall hire. Air Line Pilots Don't Run Airlines. I understand what you are saying: management must pick its pilots from a single source. But how are you going to get companies to agree to that. they can simply say no. Or thay can agree and then do the opposite. What are you going to do ? fly it and grieve it? (hint... RLA)

A single seniority list would have at least the following benefits:

• Eliminates pilot group competition, everyone is doing what benefits everyone.

By creating a single seniority list you are just moving the numbers around. In the end the averages are the same with no net gain. In addition, it would mean pilots would begin thier career at age 45. And pilots who work at profitable companies will stagnant as pilots from bankrupt companies come over...

• Negotiating leverage, because it includes ALL airline pilots.

What about non ALPA pilots? What about cargo? How are you going to get AA and UPS pilots? Sure it is possible but HOW? What is the plan?

• Pilots can move from airline to airline and not loose seniority, which would require airlines to make their pilots happy to prevent attrition and higher costs associated with such movement.

It isn't about attrition. It is about the competition to remain in operation. See EAL and PAA examples above.

• The most important of all, when times get tuff airlines can't point to the lower cost of pilot labor at competing airlines. If all airline pilots are paid the same, it eliminates the pilot labor cost variable from the equation. It would simply parallel airfare taxes, landing fees, and PFCs, where the cost is just passed to the consumer. Industry downturns are the main reason why our wages haven't kept up with inflation...we just give everything back!

Here is the kicker. Is everyone going to be happy? Let's say we go single list and in a few years UAL does very well. UAL makes more money than the treasury. The UAL pilots start to compalin cause they know if they and only they negotiated with UAL they could get a pay raise. A good one. And they should cause they helped make all the profits. But they can't cause they are locked into a single list with same pay.

Meanwhile, the Kalitta goes out of business and those guys come over to UAL and take seniorty. Is that fair?

How do you negotiate same pay? UAL and kalitta have B747's. Should Kalitta have to pay UAL wages to its pilots? Can they afford to. Can they afford a blended average? Should UAL pilots have to accept lower avg. pay cause of Kalitta pay?



What you are trying to do it mess with the free market forces of our economy. There is no way those in power, gov't, economy and industry will allow that....


Besides, when the growth comes back, all of this single pay and national list talk will go away...... beacuse all it is...is reactionary and short term...

Just as other unions and other professional associations! For example, the American Medical Association. They set the standard for who can be a doctor, and because that standard is high, not everyone can do it. This keeps the supply of doctors low, and the wages high. They even have a council that constantly evaluates education and certification requirements.

Another example, home appraisers. If you were a freelance home appraiser you could make $300 for about 1 hours worth of work! Guess what...it's not easy becoming an appraiser. You can't just go to appraisal school, get certified, and get a job. The Appraisal Foundation, as authorized by Congress, sets the educational standard for appraisers, which includes apprentice time. They can indirectly control the supply of appraisers!!! Here is a link to their website, which shows the standards. Take a look at experience requirement...kinda funny that you need 250hrs to become a commercial pilot, and 2000hrs to become a licensed appraiser!

Acceptable examples but the AMA gets to do so because it is charged with human life. A single human life is not vital to our economy. The airline industry is. Same with home inspectors. Also, these two industries don't have the RLA.

 

[AvroJockey]

Rez O. Lewshun -

You want to fix ALPA...right? Well I'm giving you a sound solution, with an economic foudation, to do just that, and you counter with empty opinions. Back your thoughts up, don't just combat mine!

The FACT is that our wages have not kept up with inflation...not even close!!! This can only mean one thing...WE'VE BEEN DOING SOMETHING WRONG! Do you want to fix it, or maintain the status quo?

 

[mac36]

I was going to call your 17,000 hours BS, but after reading your post, and seeing your ability to quote paprgraphs.....I believe it to be true. Welcome to the 21st century gramps.

My ability to quote paragraphs is surpassed only by your ability to spell "paprgraphs"

Clicked the quote link just like always. What you see is what got displayed, beats me what happened.

You can call my TT whatever you like. Soloed 1974, "Commuter" pilot 1981-1985, Current "Legacy" Carrier 1985 to present.

No grandkids yet.

Nice try though.

 

[mac36]

If ALPA were to implement a single seniority list, on could go from one airline to the other and keep their seniority. Voala(sp?)...street Captains!

First of all, I've been hearing and reading that dream for over 20 years.

Secondly, if the mechanics of a national list were as you described, the people on this board whining about slow upgrade would NEVER see the left seat as we geezers would have all the seats occupied.

Granted, the experience level in the right seat would go waaaaay up.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Rez O. Lewshun -

You want to fix ALPA...right? Well I'm giving you a sound solution, with an economic foudation, to do just that, and you counter with empty opinions. Back your thoughts up, don't just combat mine!

The FACT is that our wages have not kept up with inflation...not even close!!! This can only mean one thing...WE'VE BEEN DOING SOMETHING WRONG! Do you want to fix it, or maintain the status quo?

Not sure how me not accepting your idea, that seems to be having trouble standing on its own merits, makes me the problem. Empty opinions?.... I think I have made a few decent arguments..... just like...

First of all, I've been hearing and reading that dream for over 20 years.

Secondly, if the mechanics of a national list were as you described, the people on this board whining about slow upgrade would NEVER see the left seat as we geezers would have all the seats occupied.

Granted, the experience level in the right seat would go waaaaay up.

So for 20 (+?) years.. this single list idea gets bounced around. I like your concept of how we are triggered to instant gratification... but I see trying to make a Single List a way of instant gratification. It is a short term quick fix that doesn't work long term.

Here is another problem. If Single List ideas have been floating around for over 20+ years and not been implemented, then they proabaly aren't good ideas. So why push them? In fact when you do, it takes away from our effectiveness to get things done. In addition, guys get on these message boards and read "ideas" such as single lists, get influenced and then believe that ALPA is jacked up cause it won't implement Single Lists... Now we are just banging our heads on the wall.....

 

[AvroJockey]

I guess you guys like the status quo...kinda sad!

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I guess you guys like the status quo...kinda sad!

Don't pack up your marbles and go home. Just because the Single list isn't a good idea doesn't mean I like the status quo.... I am all for innovation and change....

 

[AvroJockey]

Don't pack up your marbles and go home. Just because the Single list isn't a good idea doesn't mean I like the status quo.... I am all for innovation and change....

So then...what's your idea to fix ALPA?

 

[Eagleguy]

"That is a total of 76 hours of CRJ200 simulation as well as all of the jet transition, high altitude aerodynamics (Climb to 410 and recovery or not)."

 

[b19]

Minimum hours as part of CBA-Brilliant

Making the minimum hiring requirements part of every cba, and then raising them all in the name of safety, just brilliant.

ALPA could do this all in the name of safety, and they could actually win this battle.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

So then...what's your idea to fix ALPA?

First there needs to be some understanding of the current condition. The Legacy carriers were due to collapse..... 9/11 was just the catalyst. We are paying for managmeents poor performance and that is just the way it is... (can we control it?) Current airline management needs to increase productivity, not reduce wages, work rules, benefits and retirement. The way to increase productivity is the SWA effect. I'm not saying UAL should become like SWA... but at least in terms of respecting employees..... Problem is... that is something no one or union can control. Maybe if employees were more organized and unified they could effect change?? Not sure if or when that paradigm will shift.

Let's talk about DW... I think he has failed to stay connected (or even connect) with the membership. He should have been visiting the crewrooms for the last 4 years, with a cadre of support, so that he can id the issues and address them. In addition, this would reduce the apathy and cynisism, which is counter productive. But DW takes direction from the BOD and the EB. The president is a one man wrecking ball.

Education. The recent FedEx TA has only 30 mins to address new hires. With lots of military guys getting thier first civie job, 30 mins is not enough. I got my ALPA education by volunteering for ten years and I still have alot to learn. So does the average line pilot. How can we be effective if we don't know how it works? Basic but elementry.

Participation. Line pilots are not involved. The age 60 survey only had 30% participation. LEC meetings about 5% particpation. ALPA PAC is 15% particaption. LEC elections is about 30% particaption.

How can we run if we don't walk. We want advanced perfromance but we don't want to do the basics. Readers are thinking.. yeah yeah Rez, whatever, I want to see action. I want results. Sorry. Investing in ones airline career is like long term investing. Slow, methodical, ups and downs, with long term visions and results...

Respectfully, once we stop talking about single pay rates for all, National Lists, DW hatred and National Strikes we can focus on pragmatic ideas. There are alot of great ideas out there but if we don't particpate (FI doesn't count) we can't move forward.

We live in the USA. CorpAmerica reigns. Very hard to change this.... and alot of factors come from here that effect how we work, etc....

How about basic support for each other. We are constantly in fighting. It's a choice. Why?

As pilots we are all leaders when flying the line, but when it comes to our careers we hand all control over to the gov't, ALPA, the company and fate. If we participate we gain control.

Maybe the RLA needs to change. That is the federal code. And while ALPA doesn't control the code, ALPA can try and influence it.

Brand scope has merit but it maybe a few years too late. I'm not sure what the next "Scope" technology will be, and I'm probably not smart enough to figure it out.. but someone is... he's just not showing up to the meetings.

And that is ALPA's fault and our fault...

I like to focus on what I can control. I can control my education and participation. The more of us can influence those we don't control...

So..... no silver bullets or smoking guns to point to.... but I don't theink there should be..


Yes? No? Maybe? Other ideas?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Making the minimum hiring requirements part of every cba, and then raising them all in the name of safety, just brilliant.

Hiring mins are a function of management. Why should management even discuss ALPA having a say?

ALPA could do this all in the name of safety, and they could actually win this battle.

How, specifically?