Job Situation

[Medivacer]

I asked about a month ago about Jobs. It was pretty bleek, now it seems to be picking up.

I'm in Northern Canada, and I'm starting to convert all my lisences to the FAA. (Yes I'm an American).

I have about 300TT with 40 Multi.

Anything out there?

Many thanks.

 

[MYFpilot]

It is time young skywalker you learn the joys of instructing.

 

[Cornelius]

Instructing is your only gig with that time. You can't even fly traffic watch unless you have 500 hrs.

c-ya!

 

[Medivacer]

I was hoping on an Effo posistion, or perhaps whatever is out there.

I don't think it would be fait to future pilots if I got my instructor rating. I know I'd only do it for the hours and I'm not the best teacher.

Keep the advice coming though.

Thanks,


CR.

 

[Cornelius]

Effo? I'm not sure what that is.

Don't sell your self short about instructing. If your intelligent and a talented pilot, you have something to contribute when your instructing.

Many of us feel inadequate while instructing but we do a pretty good job because we are professionals and want to produce some good pilots.

c-ya!

 

[1900laker]

Consider this,

If you plan on flying for the airlines someday, you probably will want to be a Captain eventually. While you won't be instructing your first officers on basic airmanship, you will undoubtedly be teaching them techniques and share your experiences with them to prepare them to be Captains eventually. It certainly couldn't hurt to get that CFI, because of some of the fundamentals of instruction you would practice and learn. Whether you instruct that much or not, I think that the CFI rating would still help you as a mentor down the road. Also, you never know until you try whether you will be good at something or not. Good luck

 

[sydeseet]

Dude,
No offense man but 340TT isn't going to get you an FO seat in anything bigger than a Bonanza. I'd reconsider your attitude towards instructing as it has been the path for the majority of us. Let your enthusiasm for aviation show through, put your students first, and treat the profession with respect and you'll do fine. Whatever you decide, you're going to be there for a while. In my opinion this isn't going to get better any time soon.

 

[bobbysamd]

Instructing

Perhaps my .02 viewpoint is colored because instructing is all I ever did in professional aviation. But I expended countless hours trying for commuter and other jobs, interviewed for a few, and have met plenty of folks who started off as instructors and moved on to the commuters. Having said that, you need to get your CFI for at least a couple of reasons.

I'll start with the practical, pragmatic reason. Despite what you've seen or heard, virtually NO ONE hires 300 tt, 40 multi pilots to be pilots. It just doesn't happen, my friend. That is reality. If you have your CFI, you'll have a trade which you can use to find work and continue working. Take it from someone who knows and has been there.

The second practical reason is commuters seem to like applicants who have their CFI. It's another good credential to put on your resume. Even if it isn't used, getting a CFI exhibits one's ability to pass a tough and involved practical test and to translate aviation ability into a learning experience for others. I.e., it demonstrates that you're trainable.

Finally, and perhaps more cerebral, is you just might surprise yourself about instructing. What makes you think you're not the best teacher? You might find that you're good at it. The CFI course includes the Fundamentals of Instructing, which teaches you how to teach. Moreover, you will learn more about aviation than you can imagine by having to prepare to teach your students and taking them on flights. After you've instructed for even a short time, you'll be amazed at how little you knew about aviation before you became an instructor.

Just some food for thought. Good luck with your plans.

 

[C-135 Backer]

"You best learn--what you need to teach" Besides the wisdom of this expression instructing is an immensely satisfying experience.

 

[Bluto]

Have to agree with you there Backer. While the benefits are not great, CFI'ing beats flying an RJ there and back with regards to personal satisfaction. Of course, the first time greasing it on in the RJ was nice, too.

 

[Flynfish]

I understand why you don't want to instruct. I was in the same boat with about your amount of time. I started working on the CFI, and realized that it wasn't my cup of tea. I totally respect everyone who instructed, I just didn't want to go that route. I went to the local skydiving outfit and got on flying jumpers. It all worked out in the end. Good luck

 

[Jetscream32]

My roommate in flight school decided that he didn't want to instruct either. Figured he could get a job on problem flying skydivers or traffic watch, etc. Well, two and a half years later with no CFI he is loading boxes for UPS. I on the other hand got my CFI and CFII and started working at a flight school in NC. Got my MEI paid for (except DE charge) and lots of FREE multi time before that. Getting a job instructing helps you make CONTACTS with people that can only help you. Other instructors move on to Regionals and are usually more than happy to walk your resume in. Also, instructing out of a somewhat busier airport allows you to pick up some right seat time in a King Air or a Lear or something. The guys that fly those usually just need someone to work the radios, but fly with them enough and they may offer you a permanent gig as a corporate pilot making 40k a year to start. A little work now will help you a lot in the future

 

[FL000]

In case you didn't see it, here is a quote from Charles Lindbergh's The Spirit of St. Lous that I posted last week.

"I soon discovered that I was learning as much about flying as my students. A pilot doesn't understand the real limitations of his aircraft until he's instructed in it. Try as he may, he can never duplicate intentionally the plights that a student gets him into by accident. When you're flying yourself, you know in advance whether you're going to pull the stick back, push it forward, or cut the throttle. You think of a maneuver before you attempt it. But you're never sure what a student is going to do. He's likely to haul the nose up and cut the gun at the very moment when more speed is needed. If you check his errors too quickly, he loses confidence in his ability to fly. If you let them go too long, he'll crash you. You must learn the exact limits of your plane, and always keep him far enough within them so the wrong movement of a control will still leave you with the situation well in hand. You must learn not how high the tail should go in take-off, but how high it can go without disaster; not how to avoid a wind drift when you're landing, but how much drift there can be when the wheels touch, without a ground loop or blown tire resulting. And after you've learned how to keep a student out of trouble, you find that you've become a better pilot yourself. As you instruct your student in the primary art of flying, he instructs you in its advanced phases. In a gust of wind, or if the engine fails, or in any emergency, you handle your plane more skillfully than you ever did before."

When I began instructing, I thought that I'd be helping others learn while my own skills deteriorated sitting in the right seat. I could not have been further from the truth.

 

[ILLINI]

FL000,

Excellent quote!!! I couldn't agree with you more about becoming a much better pilot because of instructing. I too had my doubts about becoming an instructor, but I am so glad I went through with it. I'd have to say I learned just as much, if not more, as an instructor than in all my dual recieved together. It was tough work at times, but nothing beats sharing in your students excitement after their first solo or other "firsts" that they accomplish along the way. It's only been a little over two months since I left my job as an instructor, and there are already times when I miss it.

 

[SF3CAP]

I wasn't crazy about instructing at first, but it grew on me. I had the purple head man's expression on my face a few times while instructing private students. I'll tell you, though, I really learned instrument flying by teaching in actual conditions. Your students won't be the only ones learning in the cockpit. Just do it.

 

[KingAirKiddo]

I know this is starting to sound like a broken record, but I just have to add my $.02...you should definitely plan on getting your CFI and instructing. I found that I learned FAR more through teaching than I ever knew, or thought I knew before that. I instructed at a small airport where I made good contacts and led to my current job flying King Airs and Barons. Just do it...you won't be disappointed and might be pleasantly surprised at how much fun it can be. I know I was...

Best of luck either way...

KingAirKiddo

 

[bigboy]

I asked about a month ago about Jobs. It was pretty bleek, now it seems to be picking up.

I'm in Northern Canada, and I'm starting to convert all my lisences to the FAA. (Yes I'm an American).

I have about 300TT with 40 Multi.

Anything out there?

Many thanks.

Hey Medivac . my brother just passed his CFI checkride yesterday and got a job offer today , he is #4 CFI in the family now , and he is very happy to start his new career. the other three are airline pilots and still very proud and active CFI's.My point is the satisfaction that you will get when your student passes a checkride is a great feeling .plus you will learn a lot as CFI.and your confidence level will skyrocket. and trust me not all of us started as a great teachers but experience will help you to become a good CFI. Best of luck to you .

 

[Draginass]

Look at the big picture. Almost all your contemporaries have their CFIs and have instructed their fannies off and gained good PIC time.

Imagine you're the guy (built time by instructing many years ago) doing the hiring at a commuter and you have an CFI that's been doing yeoman duty instructing. And then they have you who's been flying banners or dropping skydivers with no CFI rating. You're both good guys. He asks YOU why you don't have a CFI rating - what are you going to tell him?

 

[airgator]

If your know for sure you absolutely dont want to instruct you need to at least get a job at an FBO and start meeting people...alot of people. You're not gonna get a job by just sending out resumes with your time, you're gonna have to make friends and bum rides and hope things fall into place. I have less time than you and just got lucky landing a job as a Twin Otter FO.I know a ton of guys that are flying with majors and regionals that never got their CFI's. It's not for everyone. If you dont wanna pump gas and work at the FBO try hanging around jump zones and you never know who you'll meet. Good luck.

 

[Cardinal]

$#)! %&#( $%*(# !@@^&%$# #*&%!!
I've bit the bullet, and start getting paid for my efforts in about two weeks. I count myself lucky to have a flying job in this climate, which is more than many can say. I had dreaded instructing, but finally came to realize that it was simply part of the aviation gig, at worst a pill that had to be swallowed, at best a place to make contacts, learn, learn, and learn, and build not only hours but experience. One thing I would like to pass on, if one approaches instructing with such a negative attitude that it might prevent them from being productive teachers, representatives of the industry, please, just skip it. Aviation does not need those who don't care. If you do a sloppy job of teaching and your student winds up out of gas, lands on a freeway and clobbers a family of four driving to grandma's house, well, just think about it. If we can't do it right let us not do it at all.

 

[airgator]

It's an entirely different kind of flying.....altogether.

 

[1900laker]

The group answers out loud...

"It's an entirely different kind of flying."



Sorry, couldn't resist that famous part from the movie: Airplane

 

[Medivacer]

I come from a country where you either taught, or you flew into a 2500' the middle of no where (bush). Here people do not respect CFI's like they do down there. Theres a saying about haveing a 1000 hours of the same 1 hour.

Nothing can compare to doing an NDB approach into a place that is only accessable by air, picking up a moron who played cops and robbers and somehow got shot in the process. Taking him down to a major city, and you get to have a donut at Tim Hortons becuase you don't even have a donut shop this far north.

How many of you actually have to perform short and soft feild take off and landings in all your legs?

So when the Cheif Pilot at a Teir 3 regional ask me why I never got a CFI and buddy beside me did I'll tell him why.

How many of you flew in Alaska? Thats the only place that compares to bush flying here in the north. How many of you have flown ski's before?

You can't tell me that a guy who has 1500 hour's of instructing and a guy with 1500 hours of bush flying have the same amount of expirience.

That is why I'm staying here for now. Later on when I have the proper expirience I'll come down there and apply at a regional.

Cheers.

 

[Simon Says]

Ok buddy let me tell you something. You have got a lot of positive feedback from your post of wanting a job with only 300 hours. You are coming off like you are deserved a job because you fly in northern Canada. 300 hours is nothing in this industry, and now that you do have a commercial/instrument (I think) you are one dangerous pilot. You think you have seen it all. You think you can do it all. You havent seen it all and you cant do it all. The attitude that you are conveying is going to damage some equipment or even worse injur somebody.

I would say 95% of the FO I fly with are a good stick. They can fly the airplane without being babysitted. Their hours range from 1000 to 3000. What makes a good FO vs a not so good FO is his attitude/maturity/decision making. I would rather have a person with these qualities sitting next to me than to have a good stick sitting next to me.

Take care and get your CFI/CFII/MEI then we can talk about what you know.

 

[sydeseet]

One word: Darwin

 

[1900laker]

Since you compared your flying to Alaska, I thought I would share what a couple of pilots who flew over 2000 hours in various aircraft in Alaska had to share with us when they came to our airline.

They pretty much said that there is kind of a 1000 hour mark up there in that kind of flying that is kind of a survival point. Meaning that if you make it past a 1000 hours up there, you have a much greater chance of surviving the rest of your flying up there. They counted off a dozen or more instances of people they flew with who killed themselves in airplane accidents in Alaska, mostly because they did not have the experience to handle the situation. All I am saying is be careful. Your next 700 hours of flying should be done with extra caution and a voice constantly in the back of your head asking are you doing everything right at the moment. Never get complacent.

Additionally, I applaud your experience thus far. What you are doing is the most challenging flying there is, asside from maybe landing an F-14 on a pitching carrier deck at night or flying one in combat.

Now people, please don't flame me on this and look for the point before firing back... Kit Darby and his AirInc seminars/manuals/jobfairs are given reviews good and bad. But one of the things that I heard that I have since witnessed to be true is that you do NOT want to standout away from the norm. Airlines are conservative in their view and will be more likely to choose a pilot who on paper and in interview looks very similar to the hundreds or thousands of pilots currently working there that are perfoming their mission succesfully. As a consequence, you will have a BETTER chance of having MORE offers from various airlines to which you apply IF you match a model close to what they are looking for. It is such a fickle process that sometimes it boiles down to who's resume format they like better. Consider that since your Airline career will likely be DOWN HERE, you will probably want to look like most extra applicants on paper that apply from down here, and use your bush flying as that extra bonus. That way a potential employer looks at both people who are CFIs (and it is likely that the interviewer may have gone that route too) and says one of the former CFIs is an experienced bush pilot. Bingo!

I have personnaly known several pilots who were hired with airlines with considerably less time, with the stipulation that they start in the training department because of a shortage of instructors. But guess what... they were former CFIs.

Don't take all this the wrong way. I am by no means putting down the type of flying you are doing. I just wanted you to know what I have seen from inside the industry thus far. One of the former Alaska pilots I mentioned didn't have a CFI and he got hired just fine. The whole game is a giant crap shoot. I am just telling you how to load the dice a little in your favor.

 

[FL000]

How many of you flew in Alaska? Thats the only place that compares to bush flying here in the north. How many of you have flown ski's before?

You can't tell me that a guy who has 1500 hour's of instructing and a guy with 1500 hours of bush flying have the same amount of expirience.

That is why I'm staying here for now. Later on when I have the proper expirience I'll come down there and apply at a regional.

If you're going to bring that attitude with you, don't bother. You'll just be wasting your time, cowboy.

 

[hiflt]

Ok, my .02..
I too flew bush in northern Canada - floats, wheels, skis., and am currently furloughed from a US regional. The bush experience will sharpen your piloting skills, no question, but if you desire an airline job, you need quality ifr and multi time. I was not able to get my CFI when I was younger - no cash - and am busy getting it now that I'm furloughed, for most of the reasons stated here:
1. It will sharpen your knowlege
2. It will definitely hone your flying skills further
3. You will get an opportunity to build multi-engine time
4. You will get an opportunity to network, network, network
This is important. I found that in remote locations, the contacts invariably lead to the same kind of flying, but with better companies - i.e. no multi/ifr experience. You can get stuck in a rut.
5. When you are qualified to work for your first regional, having a CFI rating may open other doors, such as management positions; training department positions; etc.
6. It shows that you are a committed, professional pilot.
7. You will have developed your explanatory skills and will be able to benefit your future first officers, etc.
While you are up north, why not order the Gleim or similar CFI books and get the written exams out of the way now?
Anyway, good luck with your career.

 

[hiflt]

I just wanted to echo the cautions 1900Laker expressed above. Be careful and keep your goal in sight. No company is worth your license or your life or an accident. If pushed to fly in bad weather; with bad maintenance; and/or overloaded, sometimes the best response is to walk away and get another job, hard as it may be. I did it myself on one occasion with a questionable company, and never regretted it. Remember, it's an exercise in judgement.
My advice would be to fly the bush and get your C.F.I. at the same time, if possible in a remote location. If not, pick a month in a slow time [having completed the exams ahead of time] and go to flight school and push hard to get done ASAP.
If you have both bush experience AND a CFI you will poised to take advantage of more opportunities than if you only have the one qualification.
Good luck.

 

[Medivacer]

I think some of you have jumped to a conclusion about me.
No where did I say that I know all. I have many things to learn.

I have my own limits that I have set.


You want to talk about atitude?
I got the hint from this board that , if you don't get a CFI you'll never fly for an airline. "The only reason I got hired with my airline is becuase I'm a CFI". A 1000 of the same hour principle applies don't you think?

When I flew with my instructor all he would ever do is look and count cars. How is that learning from your student? The only stories that he could tell was the ones about students messing up. How can that compare to landing in a lake that no one else can get to. The last person to be there was probably an Aboriginal 400 years ago.


Some one stated that Instucting is a different kind of flying all together. It is.

How can you compare the satisfaction of teaching someone to fly to saving someones life?

I fly a twin, so I will be getting lots of Multi IFR. I will be flying a Beaver on floats once the ice melts, so I'll be getting PIC.