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Medivacer
Putting my time in.
- Joined
- Dec 9, 2001
- Posts
- 92
I come from a country where you either taught, or you flew into a 2500' the middle of no where (bush). Here people do not respect CFI's like they do down there. Theres a saying about haveing a 1000 hours of the same 1 hour.
Nothing can compare to doing an NDB approach into a place that is only accessable by air, picking up a moron who played cops and robbers and somehow got shot in the process. Taking him down to a major city, and you get to have a donut at Tim Hortons becuase you don't even have a donut shop this far north.
How many of you actually have to perform short and soft feild take off and landings in all your legs?
So when the Cheif Pilot at a Teir 3 regional ask me why I never got a CFI and buddy beside me did I'll tell him why.
How many of you flew in Alaska? Thats the only place that compares to bush flying here in the north. How many of you have flown ski's before?
You can't tell me that a guy who has 1500 hour's of instructing and a guy with 1500 hours of bush flying have the same amount of expirience.
That is why I'm staying here for now. Later on when I have the proper expirience I'll come down there and apply at a regional.
Cheers.
Nothing can compare to doing an NDB approach into a place that is only accessable by air, picking up a moron who played cops and robbers and somehow got shot in the process. Taking him down to a major city, and you get to have a donut at Tim Hortons becuase you don't even have a donut shop this far north.
How many of you actually have to perform short and soft feild take off and landings in all your legs?
So when the Cheif Pilot at a Teir 3 regional ask me why I never got a CFI and buddy beside me did I'll tell him why.
How many of you flew in Alaska? Thats the only place that compares to bush flying here in the north. How many of you have flown ski's before?
You can't tell me that a guy who has 1500 hour's of instructing and a guy with 1500 hours of bush flying have the same amount of expirience.
That is why I'm staying here for now. Later on when I have the proper expirience I'll come down there and apply at a regional.
Cheers.
Simon Says
New Airbus Regional Jet
- Joined
- Dec 19, 2001
- Posts
- 1,036
Ok buddy let me tell you something. You have got a lot of positive feedback from your post of wanting a job with only 300 hours. You are coming off like you are deserved a job because you fly in northern Canada. 300 hours is nothing in this industry, and now that you do have a commercial/instrument (I think) you are one dangerous pilot. You think you have seen it all. You think you can do it all. You havent seen it all and you cant do it all. The attitude that you are conveying is going to damage some equipment or even worse injur somebody.
I would say 95% of the FO I fly with are a good stick. They can fly the airplane without being babysitted. Their hours range from 1000 to 3000. What makes a good FO vs a not so good FO is his attitude/maturity/decision making. I would rather have a person with these qualities sitting next to me than to have a good stick sitting next to me.
Take care and get your CFI/CFII/MEI then we can talk about what you know.
I would say 95% of the FO I fly with are a good stick. They can fly the airplane without being babysitted. Their hours range from 1000 to 3000. What makes a good FO vs a not so good FO is his attitude/maturity/decision making. I would rather have a person with these qualities sitting next to me than to have a good stick sitting next to me.
Take care and get your CFI/CFII/MEI then we can talk about what you know.
1900laker
Well-known member
- Joined
- Nov 30, 2001
- Posts
- 117
Since you compared your flying to Alaska, I thought I would share what a couple of pilots who flew over 2000 hours in various aircraft in Alaska had to share with us when they came to our airline.
They pretty much said that there is kind of a 1000 hour mark up there in that kind of flying that is kind of a survival point. Meaning that if you make it past a 1000 hours up there, you have a much greater chance of surviving the rest of your flying up there. They counted off a dozen or more instances of people they flew with who killed themselves in airplane accidents in Alaska, mostly because they did not have the experience to handle the situation. All I am saying is be careful. Your next 700 hours of flying should be done with extra caution and a voice constantly in the back of your head asking are you doing everything right at the moment. Never get complacent.
Additionally, I applaud your experience thus far. What you are doing is the most challenging flying there is, asside from maybe landing an F-14 on a pitching carrier deck at night or flying one in combat.
Now people, please don't flame me on this and look for the point before firing back... Kit Darby and his AirInc seminars/manuals/jobfairs are given reviews good and bad. But one of the things that I heard that I have since witnessed to be true is that you do NOT want to standout away from the norm. Airlines are conservative in their view and will be more likely to choose a pilot who on paper and in interview looks very similar to the hundreds or thousands of pilots currently working there that are perfoming their mission succesfully. As a consequence, you will have a BETTER chance of having MORE offers from various airlines to which you apply IF you match a model close to what they are looking for. It is such a fickle process that sometimes it boiles down to who's resume format they like better. Consider that since your Airline career will likely be DOWN HERE, you will probably want to look like most extra applicants on paper that apply from down here, and use your bush flying as that extra bonus. That way a potential employer looks at both people who are CFIs (and it is likely that the interviewer may have gone that route too) and says one of the former CFIs is an experienced bush pilot. Bingo!
I have personnaly known several pilots who were hired with airlines with considerably less time, with the stipulation that they start in the training department because of a shortage of instructors. But guess what... they were former CFIs.
Don't take all this the wrong way. I am by no means putting down the type of flying you are doing. I just wanted you to know what I have seen from inside the industry thus far. One of the former Alaska pilots I mentioned didn't have a CFI and he got hired just fine. The whole game is a giant crap shoot. I am just telling you how to load the dice a little in your favor.
They pretty much said that there is kind of a 1000 hour mark up there in that kind of flying that is kind of a survival point. Meaning that if you make it past a 1000 hours up there, you have a much greater chance of surviving the rest of your flying up there. They counted off a dozen or more instances of people they flew with who killed themselves in airplane accidents in Alaska, mostly because they did not have the experience to handle the situation. All I am saying is be careful. Your next 700 hours of flying should be done with extra caution and a voice constantly in the back of your head asking are you doing everything right at the moment. Never get complacent.
Additionally, I applaud your experience thus far. What you are doing is the most challenging flying there is, asside from maybe landing an F-14 on a pitching carrier deck at night or flying one in combat.
Now people, please don't flame me on this and look for the point before firing back... Kit Darby and his AirInc seminars/manuals/jobfairs are given reviews good and bad. But one of the things that I heard that I have since witnessed to be true is that you do NOT want to standout away from the norm. Airlines are conservative in their view and will be more likely to choose a pilot who on paper and in interview looks very similar to the hundreds or thousands of pilots currently working there that are perfoming their mission succesfully. As a consequence, you will have a BETTER chance of having MORE offers from various airlines to which you apply IF you match a model close to what they are looking for. It is such a fickle process that sometimes it boiles down to who's resume format they like better. Consider that since your Airline career will likely be DOWN HERE, you will probably want to look like most extra applicants on paper that apply from down here, and use your bush flying as that extra bonus. That way a potential employer looks at both people who are CFIs (and it is likely that the interviewer may have gone that route too) and says one of the former CFIs is an experienced bush pilot. Bingo!
I have personnaly known several pilots who were hired with airlines with considerably less time, with the stipulation that they start in the training department because of a shortage of instructors. But guess what... they were former CFIs.
Don't take all this the wrong way. I am by no means putting down the type of flying you are doing. I just wanted you to know what I have seen from inside the industry thus far. One of the former Alaska pilots I mentioned didn't have a CFI and he got hired just fine. The whole game is a giant crap shoot. I am just telling you how to load the dice a little in your favor.
Ok, my .02..
I too flew bush in northern Canada - floats, wheels, skis., and am currently furloughed from a US regional. The bush experience will sharpen your piloting skills, no question, but if you desire an airline job, you need quality ifr and multi time. I was not able to get my CFI when I was younger - no cash - and am busy getting it now that I'm furloughed, for most of the reasons stated here:
1. It will sharpen your knowlege
2. It will definitely hone your flying skills further
3. You will get an opportunity to build multi-engine time
4. You will get an opportunity to network, network, network
This is important. I found that in remote locations, the contacts invariably lead to the same kind of flying, but with better companies - i.e. no multi/ifr experience. You can get stuck in a rut.
5. When you are qualified to work for your first regional, having a CFI rating may open other doors, such as management positions; training department positions; etc.
6. It shows that you are a committed, professional pilot.
7. You will have developed your explanatory skills and will be able to benefit your future first officers, etc.
While you are up north, why not order the Gleim or similar CFI books and get the written exams out of the way now?
Anyway, good luck with your career.
I too flew bush in northern Canada - floats, wheels, skis., and am currently furloughed from a US regional. The bush experience will sharpen your piloting skills, no question, but if you desire an airline job, you need quality ifr and multi time. I was not able to get my CFI when I was younger - no cash - and am busy getting it now that I'm furloughed, for most of the reasons stated here:
1. It will sharpen your knowlege
2. It will definitely hone your flying skills further
3. You will get an opportunity to build multi-engine time
4. You will get an opportunity to network, network, network
This is important. I found that in remote locations, the contacts invariably lead to the same kind of flying, but with better companies - i.e. no multi/ifr experience. You can get stuck in a rut.
5. When you are qualified to work for your first regional, having a CFI rating may open other doors, such as management positions; training department positions; etc.
6. It shows that you are a committed, professional pilot.
7. You will have developed your explanatory skills and will be able to benefit your future first officers, etc.
While you are up north, why not order the Gleim or similar CFI books and get the written exams out of the way now?
Anyway, good luck with your career.
I just wanted to echo the cautions 1900Laker expressed above. Be careful and keep your goal in sight. No company is worth your license or your life or an accident. If pushed to fly in bad weather; with bad maintenance; and/or overloaded, sometimes the best response is to walk away and get another job, hard as it may be. I did it myself on one occasion with a questionable company, and never regretted it. Remember, it's an exercise in judgement.
My advice would be to fly the bush and get your C.F.I. at the same time, if possible in a remote location. If not, pick a month in a slow time [having completed the exams ahead of time] and go to flight school and push hard to get done ASAP.
If you have both bush experience AND a CFI you will poised to take advantage of more opportunities than if you only have the one qualification.
Good luck.
My advice would be to fly the bush and get your C.F.I. at the same time, if possible in a remote location. If not, pick a month in a slow time [having completed the exams ahead of time] and go to flight school and push hard to get done ASAP.
If you have both bush experience AND a CFI you will poised to take advantage of more opportunities than if you only have the one qualification.
Good luck.
Medivacer
Putting my time in.
- Joined
- Dec 9, 2001
- Posts
- 92
I think some of you have jumped to a conclusion about me.
No where did I say that I know all. I have many things to learn.
I have my own limits that I have set.
You want to talk about atitude?
I got the hint from this board that , if you don't get a CFI you'll never fly for an airline. "The only reason I got hired with my airline is becuase I'm a CFI". A 1000 of the same hour principle applies don't you think?
When I flew with my instructor all he would ever do is look and count cars. How is that learning from your student? The only stories that he could tell was the ones about students messing up. How can that compare to landing in a lake that no one else can get to. The last person to be there was probably an Aboriginal 400 years ago.
Some one stated that Instucting is a different kind of flying all together. It is.
How can you compare the satisfaction of teaching someone to fly to saving someones life?
I fly a twin, so I will be getting lots of Multi IFR. I will be flying a Beaver on floats once the ice melts, so I'll be getting PIC.
No where did I say that I know all. I have many things to learn.
I have my own limits that I have set.
You want to talk about atitude?
I got the hint from this board that , if you don't get a CFI you'll never fly for an airline. "The only reason I got hired with my airline is becuase I'm a CFI". A 1000 of the same hour principle applies don't you think?
When I flew with my instructor all he would ever do is look and count cars. How is that learning from your student? The only stories that he could tell was the ones about students messing up. How can that compare to landing in a lake that no one else can get to. The last person to be there was probably an Aboriginal 400 years ago.
Some one stated that Instucting is a different kind of flying all together. It is.
How can you compare the satisfaction of teaching someone to fly to saving someones life?
I fly a twin, so I will be getting lots of Multi IFR. I will be flying a Beaver on floats once the ice melts, so I'll be getting PIC.
MetroSheriff
Hittin' the road...
- Joined
- Nov 25, 2001
- Posts
- 854
How many regional airlines fly ndb approachs into 2500', soft feilds on skis. It may be experience, it may be good experience, nobody is questioning that. But is the best experience comensurate with the job you desire in the long run?
I.E., operations under IFR in controlled airspace and dealing with, and getting along with people on the flight deck of an a/c. Adhering to policy, procedures, and company SOPs, OpSpecs, regulations, crowded airports, ramp operations, ad infinitum.
Hey man, we tried to help. You solicited suggestions for employment and based on a quick count, 18 different people chimed in, 16 of whom say instruct. The other two are ambiguous.
I remember when I was 19 also. I never listened to advice and had to go crack my head into a few brick walls to get the idea. Opening my ears would have saved a lot of headache, heartache and wasted time.
You're not even 20 years old yet. You're Commercial rated. You fly some pretty cool aircraft into some pretty hairy places in pretty crappy weather, saving lives, no less. If my personal experience is worth anything, I'd say you think your crap don't stink.
If you really want to fly for an airline, do yourself a favor and listen to these experienced folks who fly down here in the everyday world. I don't know of any regionals that scud-run into semi-frozen lakes in sharp mountain valleys on skis or floats. If that's what you want to do, just stay up north. No interviewer down here is going to get stiff when you tell him about all your cowboy adventures in the bush.
Re-read that quote by Lindbergh, if you read it at all. Listen to what he's telling you. You might find your personal limits doing the flying your doing now, but you're never going to know your airplane's limits. Instructing will make you a better pilot, period.
That's all I've got to say about that....
I remember when I was 19 also. I never listened to advice and had to go crack my head into a few brick walls to get the idea. Opening my ears would have saved a lot of headache, heartache and wasted time.
You're not even 20 years old yet. You're Commercial rated. You fly some pretty cool aircraft into some pretty hairy places in pretty crappy weather, saving lives, no less. If my personal experience is worth anything, I'd say you think your crap don't stink.
If you really want to fly for an airline, do yourself a favor and listen to these experienced folks who fly down here in the everyday world. I don't know of any regionals that scud-run into semi-frozen lakes in sharp mountain valleys on skis or floats. If that's what you want to do, just stay up north. No interviewer down here is going to get stiff when you tell him about all your cowboy adventures in the bush.
Re-read that quote by Lindbergh, if you read it at all. Listen to what he's telling you. You might find your personal limits doing the flying your doing now, but you're never going to know your airplane's limits. Instructing will make you a better pilot, period.
That's all I've got to say about that....
rightrudder
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jan 8, 2002
- Posts
- 505
Sounds like you have as a good a job you're going to get with the experience you have. I'm not sure why you are asking us about job opportunities.
Right now, regionals can take the cream of the crop, those that are still hiring. They aren't going to even look at someone with your level of experience. Anything else you might me able to scare up here in the states isn't going to be any better than what you have now. Be patient, pay your dues and at some point you can get a job down here.
p.s. What's wrong with a Canadian working for a carrier in your own country? Why the desire to fly here?
Right now, regionals can take the cream of the crop, those that are still hiring. They aren't going to even look at someone with your level of experience. Anything else you might me able to scare up here in the states isn't going to be any better than what you have now. Be patient, pay your dues and at some point you can get a job down here.
p.s. What's wrong with a Canadian working for a carrier in your own country? Why the desire to fly here?
uwochris
Flightinfo's sexiest user
- Joined
- Dec 21, 2001
- Posts
- 381
Like Medivacer, I come from Canada, so I know a bit of what he speaks. I, however, live in the way South (London), am still in University, and plan on doing my instructing rating. First, let me clear something up. In Canada, there is no "CFI, CFII, MEI, etc." You get a "Class IV instructor's rating" and move to a 3, 2, 1, depending on experience. Just a tidbit of knowledge.
Also, as shocking as it may sound, he is right. Instructors are not treated with the same respect in Canada as they are in the USA. Many people often joke about them, but I have spoken to many successful instructors. I sometimes wish it was like the US here, because I want to instruct so much, but I fear that I will be frowned upon. Many people (Canadians and Americans) tell me not to worry. I think the big difference comes in attitude. For instance, Medivacer makes it seem like instructors have no shot at any jobs afterwards, but that is not the case. I have spoken to 727 pilots who had about 500-1000tt and were instructors. I've met Dash 8, B1900Ds, Twotter, etc pilots who used to be instructors. An old instructor from my school is now flying Caravans up North, and another, flying PC12s, both turbines. In my opinion, one's attitude will be the determining factor in how far he/she can go in their careers.
If you start flying because you have a passion for it, and you are perserveringd and patient, you will succeed. If not, you may not get so far because the frustration will get the worst of you. Medivacer, I'm not accusing you of anything, though.
Canadian or American, it doesn't matter. Just stay positive and your career will be a success, in my opinion.
PS- For anyone that hasn't had Tim Hortons, it's only the best **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** donut shop in the world.
Also, as shocking as it may sound, he is right. Instructors are not treated with the same respect in Canada as they are in the USA. Many people often joke about them, but I have spoken to many successful instructors. I sometimes wish it was like the US here, because I want to instruct so much, but I fear that I will be frowned upon. Many people (Canadians and Americans) tell me not to worry. I think the big difference comes in attitude. For instance, Medivacer makes it seem like instructors have no shot at any jobs afterwards, but that is not the case. I have spoken to 727 pilots who had about 500-1000tt and were instructors. I've met Dash 8, B1900Ds, Twotter, etc pilots who used to be instructors. An old instructor from my school is now flying Caravans up North, and another, flying PC12s, both turbines. In my opinion, one's attitude will be the determining factor in how far he/she can go in their careers.
If you start flying because you have a passion for it, and you are perserveringd and patient, you will succeed. If not, you may not get so far because the frustration will get the worst of you. Medivacer, I'm not accusing you of anything, though.
Canadian or American, it doesn't matter. Just stay positive and your career will be a success, in my opinion.
PS- For anyone that hasn't had Tim Hortons, it's only the best **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** donut shop in the world.
bobbysamd
Well-known member
- Joined
- Nov 26, 2001
- Posts
- 5,710
Attitude
Every time I looked at the board during work today I was debating if I should add a comment to this thread.
One thing I've noticed about this board is help and advice are only a post away. People ask for help about everything, from career advice, to jobs, to finding an AME, to finding sunglasses and checks with airplane designs. No request for help or advice goes unanswered for more than a few minutes. Try to get help like that from Kit Darby and his FAPA descendants.
People may agree or disagree with the advice being given. Sometimes you receive advice that you don't want to hear or accept. That apparently has happened for you. But there is no reason to come back with a 'tude. Most pilots are friendly and try to help each other, with advice, gouge, information, whatever. Most people are grateful that someone took the time to help, and thank them. You did not.
Medivacer, when you started the thread you said you were a 300-hour pilot. You asked about jobs here. Well, most people will see that and think, "low-timer, he/she needs to build time to be considered seriously for the next job - the easiest job to get to build that time quickly is to instruct." Then you fire back with your bush experience and attitude. No one will discount the value of your experience, but you, my friend, are still a 300-hour pilot and people will advise accordingly. It is clear that you are not a listener. If you wish to fly for an airline, perhaps you should develop the habit of listening to people because, if you get that far, you'll be listening to plenty of Captains for quite a while. Having said all that, I wish you well. And, by the way, the commuters here hire plenty of flight instructors.
Uwochris, flight instructors aren't always shown respect down here, either. Take it from someone who knows. Just the same, you nailed it on the head. Attitude is everything. Yours sounds excellent to me. Lots of luck with your education and flight training.
1900 Laker, I would have killed to be hired into the training department of any airline. I hope others reading your post appreciate that insight.
Every time I looked at the board during work today I was debating if I should add a comment to this thread.
One thing I've noticed about this board is help and advice are only a post away. People ask for help about everything, from career advice, to jobs, to finding an AME, to finding sunglasses and checks with airplane designs. No request for help or advice goes unanswered for more than a few minutes. Try to get help like that from Kit Darby and his FAPA descendants.
People may agree or disagree with the advice being given. Sometimes you receive advice that you don't want to hear or accept. That apparently has happened for you. But there is no reason to come back with a 'tude. Most pilots are friendly and try to help each other, with advice, gouge, information, whatever. Most people are grateful that someone took the time to help, and thank them. You did not.
Medivacer, when you started the thread you said you were a 300-hour pilot. You asked about jobs here. Well, most people will see that and think, "low-timer, he/she needs to build time to be considered seriously for the next job - the easiest job to get to build that time quickly is to instruct." Then you fire back with your bush experience and attitude. No one will discount the value of your experience, but you, my friend, are still a 300-hour pilot and people will advise accordingly. It is clear that you are not a listener. If you wish to fly for an airline, perhaps you should develop the habit of listening to people because, if you get that far, you'll be listening to plenty of Captains for quite a while. Having said all that, I wish you well. And, by the way, the commuters here hire plenty of flight instructors.
Uwochris, flight instructors aren't always shown respect down here, either. Take it from someone who knows. Just the same, you nailed it on the head. Attitude is everything. Yours sounds excellent to me. Lots of luck with your education and flight training.
1900 Laker, I would have killed to be hired into the training department of any airline. I hope others reading your post appreciate that insight.
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1900laker
Well-known member
- Joined
- Nov 30, 2001
- Posts
- 117
I can think of at least 2 exlakers that I personally knew that were hired to be instructors first. Both very low time (less than 500TT). They did 1/2 month groundschool instructing and 1/2 month flying the line as FOs. 1 of the 2 flew on the cargo side (135) as a captain for about a year because he wasn't 23 years old yet to meet the ATP requirement. Both those guys have since moved on to AWAC, but like you said, I wish I would have known about deals like that too.
And yes, attitude is EVERYTHING in this game. Thanks for the pat on the back Bobby with your comments on those taking the time to post trying to help.
And yes, attitude is EVERYTHING in this game. Thanks for the pat on the back Bobby with your comments on those taking the time to post trying to help.
stingray
Senior Member
- Joined
- Dec 2, 2001
- Posts
- 284
Medivacer you need to think about how you are saying things!!!!!
I have to agree with Fletch717 a little.
8hrs of flying in a day. Think about Takeoff and landings on an 18 leg day. doesn't sound to bad until it was done in solid I to mins every time. the T.O. and landings is the only time you see anything below 200 ft or so. Thats what flying around the Cape Cod and Boston area is like a lot. Some of the days you can put the 30 Xwind in and someimes its on your tail.
Bush flying is an expierence no doubt, but there is alot more things happenning in flying and expierences that you won't see there, That you will need to get, to recieve the job you seem to eventually desire.(Agree with Metro)
some other things you have not seen: High density traffic areas Like N.Y. a few feet this or that way won't cut it there. and getting the arrivals and departures right is a must.
Bush and Airline flying, is 2 totaly different flying enviorments.
Oh yea Just one question just how are you doing this type of flying with only 300hrs?
MINS
I have to agree with Fletch717 a little.
8hrs of flying in a day. Think about Takeoff and landings on an 18 leg day. doesn't sound to bad until it was done in solid I to mins every time. the T.O. and landings is the only time you see anything below 200 ft or so. Thats what flying around the Cape Cod and Boston area is like a lot. Some of the days you can put the 30 Xwind in and someimes its on your tail.
Bush flying is an expierence no doubt, but there is alot more things happenning in flying and expierences that you won't see there, That you will need to get, to recieve the job you seem to eventually desire.(Agree with Metro)
some other things you have not seen: High density traffic areas Like N.Y. a few feet this or that way won't cut it there. and getting the arrivals and departures right is a must.
Bush and Airline flying, is 2 totaly different flying enviorments.
Oh yea Just one question just how are you doing this type of flying with only 300hrs?
MINS
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