JetBlue/SWA linkup may be in the works.

[satpak77]

While entertaining, SWA will not buy or merge with anybody (in my opinion) for a long time, if ever again (ala Morris Air).

 

[Sailpilot]

Sail,

I see your concern and understand why a true definition of a JB pilot as FULL TIME is so important. While not a perfect system (the contract) we do have a few things that would pull for us in court. One of them being that if a court tried to define us even with a contract, we would still be considered FULL time for a few reasons. 1. Our benefits (health, dental std, LOL etc..) are all based on a selection from the "FULL TIME EMPLOYEES" list of the benefits package every year. Basically, we are selecting the benifits package for the group of employee that we are....which is from the FULL TIME Menu. Second, if you go into BCSS, your employee type as defined in the JB system is "Full Time". These are just a few examples of how even though we have a revolving 5 year contract, we fall under the status of Full Time employee. The second one, and a big one, is that we DONT have to re-negotiate a contract every 5 years. It automatically carries over to the next cycle unless you meet the definition of the few things that are terminating offenses....and those are clearly spelled out. Under state and federal labor law, being employed and lumped into the same category as regular non contract full time employees as well as not having to re-negotiate AND sign a new contract at the end of its term does make us legally viewed full time employees who work under a "floating" or revolving employee contract for the means of pay and work rules. I have had long discussions with my girlfriends father over this who is a labor law attorney in the state of Texas and who is very well respected in his field. He specializes in employee and union labor law with many of the oil workers in the gulf and is no way a "company guy". He agrees 100% that we are full time and would be covered under the McCaskil/ Bond amendment. Now, having said that, do I think there are still a lot of issues that need to be addressed....yes, but the fear and concern over being labeled "Full Time" vs "Part Time" for the definition of the McCaskil/ Bond amendment is a non issue.

Good Info.

Thanks for the input Longhorn.

 

[StopNTSing]

While entertaining, SWA will not buy or merge with anybody (in my opinion) for a long time, if ever again (ala Morris Air).

I hope you're right, but I also learned a long time ago to never say never. Especially in this industry and with this airline.

That said, if we have to get married, I'd rather it be to B6 than anyone else.

DOH, anyone?

 

[Blue Dude]

DOH, anyone?

I'm thinking one to one ratio from the top down. That pretty much establishes the openers, right?

 

[clickclickboom]

Year 6 pay with straight DOH would give me a nice pay raise or relative sen...

 

[satpak77]

indeed, never say never in this industry.....

how about AA/SWA ?

 

[LearLove]

both are as full of sh!t as any other airline ceo. SWA and JB are not the lowest fare (maybe for the first 3 seats on a half moon every other tue at 1 pm) but not all the time like they want you to think.

second compared to the legacy carrier(s) they don't fly anywhere near as many destinations, great if you want to go to mickey land, bad if you are selling 2.5 million in hydro pumps to a beer factory in Belgium.

spin spin spin, nobody wants to tell the truth anymore, just what they think people want to hear or what keep $$$ coming in the door.

 

[Splert]

McCaskil/ Bond amenment....wake up!

Wake up?

Dude...nothing in your PEA says a purchaser is required to integrate JetBlue pilots. The PEA only says that if a Transactional Event is expected to merge the operations then...blah...blah...

The new statue doesn't require a purchaser to integrate an airline it acquires. It only refers to 'covered transactions" and an acquisition that does not result in a merger of operation does not fall under the new statute because it is not a covered transaction.

Now if you think our size, 150 aircraft, will prevent the deal that SWAPA offered F9 then I think you are wrong.

 

[Splert]

I will never happen anyway. If SWA buys anyone they will take what they want, sell the rest and throw away the employees.

Bingo...nothing requires the purchaser to integrate the airline except a CBA with negotiate language that requires it.

Without a CBA with successorship then we are D.E.A.D.

But the PVC said they are working on it and the BOB will say the ALPA vote stalled the final language and implementation.

When or if the ALPA vote fails the pilots will ask: Where is the language. To which the company will say: you are not going to tell us how to run our airline.

 

[Dave's kid]

Bingo...nothing requires the purchaser to integrate the airline except a CBA with negotiate language that requires it.

I don't see that the ALPA negotiated CBA's of ATA and Midwest did much to help those pilots out when they were bought.

 

[Splert]

Yep. Codesharing without a job security section isn't smart. They trusted management and we shouldn't.

Scope, succesorship snd job security while code sharing is going to be expensive because we have no protection.

None

 

[Skyboy722]

I don't see that the ALPA negotiated CBA's of ATA and Midwest did much to help those pilots out when they were bought.

Well, ATA was already way,way out of business and Midwest will be integrated. (Eventually I guess)

 

[Splert]

Allowing an airline to contine to grow a code share while they are furloughing pilots is stupid.

Once the airline start this process it is impossible to get this job security into a contract. JetBlue pilot needs to stand firm NOW.

But after reading my fellow pilots on this forum I think it is already too late for us.

Management has freedom to do anything with this pilot group and we will not stand up for ourselves.

Instead we have pilots that think other pilots, other management or Congress will protect us.

 

[bluesideup340]

Instead we have pilots that think other pilots, other management or Congress will protect us.

Neither will ALPA or the RLA. Just to make you list complete.

 

[Splert]

Neither will ALPA or the RLA. Just to make you list complete.

Your are correct.

It is up to the pilot group to stand firm together for meaningful protections of a CBA.

Unless you think it is the wonderful culture of AMR/UAL/DAL/HAL/ALA/FedEx's that prevents Chautauqua/SkyWest/Express Jet/Republic from flying AMR/UAL/DAL/HAL/ALA/FedEx's 737 (A320) - 777s (A330).

Midwest pilot thought culture was better than the job security section of their CBA applying to code sharing. I hope Jetblue pilot drop the blind faith and stand firm together. But after following your posts on this forum I don't think we have a chance.

I'm planning on The JetBlue Brand being around for a long time. The problem though is that JetBlue pilots will not be operating JetBlue coded flights 5 years from today.

So Bluesideup340, is it culture or contract that limits the ability of these major airlines from outsourcing 777 (A330) - 737 (A320) to a code share partner?

 

[bluesideup340]

Your are correct.

It is up to the pilot group to stand firm together for meaningful protections of a CBA.

Unless you think it is the wonderful culture of AMR/UAL/DAL/HAL/ALA/FedEx's that prevents Chautauqua/SkyWest/Express Jet/Republic from flying AMR/UAL/DAL/HAL/ALA/FedEx's 737 (A320) - 777s (A330).

Midwest pilot thought culture was better than the job security section of their CBA applying to code sharing. I hope Jetblue pilot drop the blind faith and stand firm together. But after following your posts on this forum I don't think we have a chance.

I'm planning on The JetBlue Brand being around for a long time. The problem though is that JetBlue pilots will not be operating JetBlue coded flights 5 years from today.

So Bluesideup340, is it culture or contract that limits the ability of these major airlines from outsourcing 777 (A330) - 737 (A320) to a code share partner?

Splert
Just for clarification we might have to define a few terms here. Codeshare is an aviation business term for the practice of multiple airlines selling space on the same flights, where a seat can be purchased on one airline as if actually operated by a cooperating airline under a different flight number or code. It allows greater access to cities through a given airline's network without having to offer extra flights, and makes connections simpler by allowing single bookings across multiple planes. Most major US airlines have code sharing partnerships with other airlines and code sharing is a key feature of the major airline alliances.
This should not be confused with a wet lease or ACMI agreement. A wet lease is a leasing arrangement whereby one airline (lessor) provides an aircraft, complete crew, maintenance, and insurance (ACMI) to another airline (lessee), which pays by hours operated. The lessee provides fuel and covers airport fees, and any other duties, taxes, etc. The flight uses the flight number of the lessee.
With these terms defined let us discuss your question. As ACMI or wet lease providers Chautauqua/SkyWest/ExpressJet/etc. only fly equipment for which they have a lease agreement, not to be confuse with a codeshare agreement, and we all know scope has limited that to 70 seats or less in very generic terms. We could get into a large debate of what role ALPA played in this whole mess, but it might suffice to say, scope is not a good example for you to illustrate why and how a CBA can protect our jobs.
About the codeshare agreements; it is neither culture nor contract it is business. All major US airlines engage in codeshare agreements otherwise their alliances would not work. These codeshare are not limited to alliance with other international carrier. For example AA/Alaska, DL/Alaska, AA/JB, and DL/ Midwest Express.
While we are on the subject of Midwest Express. The Pilots of Midwest were doomed because of a failed business model. No contract or anything else could have prevented the demise of the airline.

 

[Splert]

Oh boy...

Code Share, ACMI and Wet Lease and Interline Agreement are terms found in the definition section of a CBA. The CBA defines what these terms mean as they relate to each specific airline and pilot group.

The AA/Alaska code share wouldn't be allowed without relief from the APA/ALA CBA. In fact both CBAs have a section carved out specially for this agreement.

Same with DAL and ALA and DAL with then NWA.

AA/JB is a code share? Holy cow. That would be news to the APA. I thought it was an interline agreement. AMR has some 'splaining' to do.

SkyWest does not provide ACMI or wet leases to UAL and DAL they are code share partners. Each CBA has an entire section devoted to granting the airline relief to allow SkyWest to operate with UAL and DAL code and to share revenue either at risk or pro-rate.

Again what prevents AMR from contracting Chautauqua in an ACMI, Wet Lease or pro rate or at risk code share contract operate Triple 7s on AMR code, routes with AMR passenger and sold on AMR website and the Global Distributions Systems?

APAs CBA. Without these section APA would be out of jobs. That is Job Security.

Same with FedEx.

Same with HAL, ALA, UAL, DAL etc.

Midwest pilots screwed up. They trusted the culture and did not stand firm for the Job Security Section of their contract to apply to code sharing.

The JetBlue Brand will live on without JetBlue pilots. I have a side gig. I hope you do. Really I do.

 

[Splert]

Splert
Just for clarification we might have to define a few terms here. Codeshare is an aviation business term for the practice of multiple airlines selling space on the same flights, where a seat can be purchased on one airline as if actually operated by a cooperating airline under a different flight number or code. It allows greater access to cities through a given airline's network without having to offer extra flights, and makes connections simpler by allowing single bookings across multiple planes. Most major US airlines have code sharing partnerships with other airlines and code sharing is a key feature of the major airline alliances.
This should not be confused with a wet lease or ACMI agreement. A wet lease is a leasing arrangement whereby one airline (lessor) provides an aircraft, complete crew, maintenance, and insurance (ACMI) to another airline (lessee), which pays by hours operated. The lessee provides fuel and covers airport fees, and any other duties, taxes, etc. The flight uses the flight number of the lessee.
With these terms defined let us discuss your question. As ACMI or wet lease providers Chautauqua/SkyWest/ExpressJet/etc. only fly equipment for which they have a lease agreement, not to be confuse with a codeshare agreement, and we all know scope has limited that to 70 seats or less in very generic terms. We could get into a large debate of what role ALPA played in this whole mess, but it might suffice to say, scope is not a good example for you to illustrate why and how a CBA can protect our jobs.
About the codeshare agreements; it is neither culture nor contract it is business. All major US airlines engage in codeshare agreements otherwise their alliances would not work. These codeshare are not limited to alliance with other international carrier. For example AA/Alaska, DL/Alaska, AA/JB, and DL/ Midwest Express.
While we are on the subject of Midwest Express. The Pilots of Midwest were doomed because of a failed business model. No contract or anything else could have prevented the demise of the airline.

Congratulations...

You discovered Wikipedia and how to cut and paste. Just a suggestion but you may want to come up with an original thought or at least delete the hot links from your plagiarized text.

BTW, here is a cut and paste from SkyWest's Annual Report.

http://www.skywest.com/skywinc/invest/reports.php

ITEM 1. BUSINESS
General
Through SkyWest Airlines and ASA, our wholly-owned subsidiaries, we offer scheduled passenger service with approximately 2,300 daily departures to 217 destinations in the United States, Canada, Mexico and the Caribbean. Substantially all of our flights are operated as Delta Connection, United Express or AirTran under code-share arrangements with Delta, United or AirTran, respectively, with significant presence in Delta and United’s key domestic hubs and focus cities. SkyWest Airlines and ASA generally provide regional flying to our partners under long-term, fixed-fee code-share agreements. Among other features of our fixed-fee agreements, our partners generally reimburse us for specified direct operating expenses (including

What limits SkyWest ability to contract to operate CRJ 700's but not UAL and DAL 777s and 747-400s? United Airlines culture or business model or is it the pilots Collective Bargained Agreement with UAL or DAL.

 

[aewanabe]

Splert, I admire your desire to fight the good fight on the forum... You can give some guys direct examples of the failure of collAboration and they just don't care as long as the rice bowl is filled.

 

[Splert]

Splert, I admire your desire to fight the good fight on the forum... You can give some guys direct examples of the failure of collAboration and they just don't care as long as the rice bowl is filled.

I agree...

But others may read 1/16 truths and believe it. The exchange isn't so much to convince a juicer who plagiarized Wikipedia but for others whose mind is open to learn more about the huge loopholes that is our PEA and FSM and the mirage of a direct relationship and culture.

 

[XR650R]

I wonder...SWA wants into the NYC market in a big way. We all know that. Now that DAL and USAir have withdrawn their slot swap deal which effectively elbows SWA out of any additional LGA slots, what would you do if you were Gary Kelly? If the goal really is NYC, what other choice do you have? (other than making a play for B6)

 

[johnsonrod]

I wonder...SWA wants into the NYC market in a big way. We all know that. Now that DAL and USAir have withdrawn their slot swap deal which effectively elbows SWA out of any additional LGA slots, what would you do if you were Gary Kelly? If the goal really is NYC, what other choice do you have? (other than making a play for B6)

Newburgh!!!!!!

 

[BeachBummer]

AH, I found this picture on the internet. It's sooooo happining! I can not wait to get on that pay scale... or be unemployed agian!

 

[Jetpipeovht]

These two CEO's don't end up on the same show together without something going on in the background. Take a look:

http://video.foxnews.com/v/4239965/improving-passenger-experience

You're still an idiot.

 

[House_X]

Lemme guess, Transcon, Flaps 3, 2/3 Galley, Packs Off, TOGA T/O out of BUR with a tech stop in LAS? What a minute...something's wrong...is that a B6 flight taking off in broad daylight?

AH, I found this picture on the internet. It's sooooo happining! I can not wait to get on that pay scale... or be unemployed agian!

 

[d.fitz]

Now that DAL and USAir have withdrawn their slot swap deal ............

That is definitely NOT the case............. You have not seen the last of this. Delta will get their way....

 

[hyflyin]

Any thoughts??

Your are correct.

It is up to the pilot group to stand firm together for meaningful protections of a CBA.

Unless you think it is the wonderful culture of AMR/UAL/DAL/HAL/ALA/FedEx's that prevents Chautauqua/SkyWest/Express Jet/Republic from flying AMR/UAL/DAL/HAL/ALA/FedEx's 737 (A320) - 777s (A330).

Midwest pilot thought culture was better than the job security section of their CBA applying to code sharing. I hope Jetblue pilot drop the blind faith and stand firm together. But after following your posts on this forum I don't think we have a chance.

I'm planning on The JetBlue Brand being around for a long time. The problem though is that JetBlue pilots will not be operating JetBlue coded flights 5 years from today.

So Bluesideup340, is it culture or contract that limits the ability of these major airlines from outsourcing 777 (A330) - 737 (A320) to a code share partner?

I would disagree with the above. JBLU is starting to look more like some sort of a "regional airline" (read below). I think you'll be around for years to come and continue to get stronger. Airlines are finally figuring out that the RJ isn't worth a crap. At least the new face of the "regional" will have much better wages, a bar for all us to reach!!



American and JetBlue: A Potent Partnership?
07/19/2010
Wall Street Journal

Return to Top

American Airlines and jetBlue Airways put their previously announced interline agreement into place on Tuesday and added news that they will offer frequent-flier credit in each others' programs on those specific routes. And so far, only on those specific routes.

The deal is limited, but it has the potential to turn into more.

JetBlue and American will sell connecting service on each other's flights to specific destinations. JetBlue will essentially feed American international flights from New York and Boston, and American will bring connecting traffic to jetBlue domestic flights, where the two airlines don't overlap.

Using jetBlue to provide lots of connections to American international flights could be a major boost for American as it competes with Delta at Kennedy International Airport, Continental at Newark Liberty International Airport and a world of international carriers. And for jetBlue, the wide array of American customers in New York and Boston now have slightly higher preference for jetBlue than other airlines when traveling to cities not served by American. Both airlines get more passengers, at the expense of competitors.

Is it enough to change the competitive landscape in New York? Probably not, at least in its current form. Both airlines have said this may lead to more cooperation, so the partnership could prove more potent in years ahead. JetBlue has also said it is interested in feeding international flights for other airlines as well.

Later this year -– the airlines haven't announced a specific date -– the frequent-flier portion will kick in. American loyalists can get AAdvantage miles on jetBlue flights to 18 cities, from Portland, Maine, to Phoenix. JetBlue loyalists can get TrueBlue points on American flights to 13 international destinations, from Tokyo to Milan. The domestic part of the deal doesn't cross over to big destinations, like Los Angeles and Fort Lauderdale. The international part includes heavily traveled routes like New York to both London and Paris.

 

[BeachBummer]

Lemme guess, Transcon, Flaps 3, 2/3 Galley, Packs Off, TOGA T/O out of BUR with a tech stop in LAS? What a minute...something's wrong...is that a B6 flight taking off in broad daylight?

Man, I dunno, I fly for Jb Express!:beer:

 

[kwick]

If it's "Link-Up" , it will be just like the Frontier "Link-Up"

A JetBlue "Staple-Job" because the SW Attorneys have determined that "Part-Time"
"Contract" Employees have no contractual rights.

Just like they found a "Loop-Hole" around Federal Law in the Frontier case.

They may rot in hell, but they will screw you out of your seniority , just like they've
done in the past.

 

[Splert]

If it's "Link-Up" , it will be just like the Frontier "Link-Up"

A JetBlue "Staple-Job" because the SW Attorneys have determined that "Part-Time"
"Contract" Employees have no contractual rights.

Just like they found a "Loop-Hole" around Federal Law in the Frontier case.

They may rot in hell, but they will screw you out of your seniority , just like they've
done in the past.

There was no loop hole to be found. SWA was not integrating Frontier's operation into SWA's.

When a contract gives part time employee rights then they have contractual rights.

Duh...