Jetblue Pilots Beware

[AA717driver]

FDJ2--TWA was in no APPARENT (read: public) imminent danger. The money was coming in and going out. Paychecks were still coming. Things had been MUCH worse. In fact, we all thought it was strange that the company had recently (summer of 2000) started paying down debt and paying accounts payable well IN ADVANCE. Hummmm...

I was privvy to the inner workings of the the company and the union at the time. You weren't. Quit trying to debate me on a subject on which you gained your information substantially from USA Today and APA press releases. Go back to Peachtree City and drink your double-breasted kool-ade.

Sorry for the mini-hijack JB guys. Had to dump the lav... TC

P.S.--Yes, I'm being uncharacteristically nasty but I can't stand people sticking their noses in where they don't even know what they're smelling for...

 

[SoCentralRain]

The bottom line is that it is that I understand that it is a tough decision, and a hard one to make without knowing exactly how everyone senior to you will bid. Bidding is a little like gambling.

In regards to bidding, when I was a new-hire at UAL I heard the following countless times.

"Bid what you want. Want what you bid." Makes sense.

 

[banger]

Add another post (and more to come) that go something like:

...managment requested from the FAA without any consideration for pilot safety.



Your opinion/arguement of whether or not it is a good idea is weakened when you make statements that are untrue.

 

[Dave Benjamin]

This post was only written to inform other jetBlue pilots of an internal issue. Yes, jetBlue has them just like everyone else. I will be the first to say we have one of the best mgt. teams in the industry but we are human.

For such a high tech airline I'm surprised they don't have some sort of website with access limited to pilots on the senioirty list for you to air your gripes.

 

[Floatplane]

Yo Dave!!

Your airline does not provide your website. It was put together by one of your pilots on his own time and at his own expense.

 

[Dave Benjamin]

Your airline does not provide your website. It was put together by one of your pilots on his own time and at his own expense.

No longer correct sir.

The individual you mention is now a chief pilot and the folks at SAPA have an independent site.

Regardless weren't we talking about Jet Blue guy airing their dirty laundry on flightinfo.com.

I'd recommend they head over to PPRUNE.org and apply for their own forum to which they can control access. I feel sorry for them having to talk about this stuff in front of the public.

 

[ricechrisb]

La plus change...

That's news to me, I didn't realize you had a PWA. What does it say about scope, successorship, training locks and seniority rights, new aircraft pay and work rules? Who enforces your Pilot Working Agreement? How are grievances resolved?

" La plus change, la meme chose" Here we go again.

The only thing new in the affairs of men is history unread - to paraphrase H.S. Truman who, I think, was paraphrasing Aristotle.

 

[shadesofBS]

There's a jetBlue forum on airlinepilotcentral.com.
It's been up for several months..

 

[potrack]

Legally binding contract?

In the world of Contract Flying, contracts always get ammended or get addendums added....................usually initiated by mgt not employees. If THEY want to change something they can, you can't.

 

[Hutcha]

While there are several possible ways to 'fine-tune' the E190 bid process I think it is at least workable. There will be without a doubt many pilots who will be unhappy with the outcome.

There are bound to be pilots who 'wish they had' or 'should 'a/ could'a/ would 'a' after the bid is done. I personally would have liked to have seen several 'practice bids' There are bound to be guys who if they had bid 18% instead of say 15% would have been awarded a slot. But of course they will come here on a public forum and blast the process, in the most negative way possible instead of taking responsibilty for their own decisions.

The practice bids never work. If you have 3 different practice bids, you'll get 3 very different outcomes, and all 3 will be different from the final bid. People bid in the practice bids "just to see" where they would fall. It really throws the numbers off.

What are you doing in a practice bid anyway?? You're seeing where your name falls on the list. How many above you. How many below you. If the right number of people are below you, you go ahead and bid it and hope that the numbers don't change. If fact, you are picking a certain percentage of the pilot list that you want below you.

This is how a percentile bid works, except that it takes all of the guess work out of it. If you are willing to accept nothing less than being in the top half of the list, then you bid 50%. One time. That's it. If you get it you got it. No averaging together the 3 practice bids to come up with an expected position, only to be disappointed with the final bid outcome.



As far as it not being fair to let a junior pilot upgrade to 190 Capt, oh well. The 190 pay sucks, for now, and I think you have to have some sort of carrot for the F/O's that are going to it. If you're going to miss the bid because you’re too junior and you won't be able to upgrade to it, oh well. Think about the last class this summer not to have a choice. The 320 class right b4 the 1st 190 class. These guys are going to have pilots 2 weeks junior to them making more from the 9 month point to the 3-3 1/2 year point.



The bottom line is, what do you do to be fair to all, and make everyone happy? Oh wait, that's right. We're pilots.

"You mean I have to work every Wednesday"!?!

sry LD

 

[Chronic Jetlag]

Hey Hutcha:

Yes, we're pilots and not everyone is going to be happy. But if there is one thing that pilots know and respect is seniority. I think all those who bid the E190 should be given the option to upgrade before pilots who are junior. Should 200 people bid it then the bottom 80 should be placed in a pool and be given the option to upgrade after the initial 120 are trained (should they choose). This would only delay the new E190 FOs upgrade by a few month. The problem is the pay on the E190 is too low. 2nd year E190 captain pay is only $72/hour and the E190 FO pay is only $37/hour. For a 100 seat plane (like a F100 or DC9) it's really low. Unfortunately this is what the market will bear in a free market economy. We get paid what we're worth only if we have the muscle to command it. This has already been brought up in our "pocket sessions." (pilot townhall style meetings). What the company will do about this particular issue will speak volumes about future actions of management.
As a JB pilot and a former ALPA member I'm a realist. I don't blindly "drink the blue Kool-Ade" I want the company to succeed and prosper but I also believe in paying labor a descent/competitive wage. And I'm still not too jaded or disallusioned to think that we can still accomplish both. What pilots hold sacred and so dear is
SENIORTY; it must not be violated.

 

[Draginass]

The TWA and other legacy airline pilots are getting screwed because of market conditions.

JetBlew pilots willing genuflect to patheticly low rates on the E190 without a wimper. As long as they can upgrade quickly to decent pay as a 320 captain, they'll gladly give Needleman anything he wants. They're the worst kind of ######.

 

[B6Busdriver]

The TWA and other legacy airline pilots are getting screwed because of market conditions.

JetBlew pilots willing genuflect to patheticly low rates on the E190 without a wimper. As long as they can upgrade quickly to decent pay as a 320 captain, they'll gladly give Needleman anything he wants. They're the worst kind of ######.

Worst kind of what? Be man enough to type it tough guy.

 

[SoCentralRain]

Yes, we're pilots and not everyone is going to be happy. But if there is one thing that pilots know and respect is seniority.

What pilots hold sacred and so dear is
SENIORTY; it must not be violated.

That's a true statement.

But it's also not unheard of for a company to institute seat or equipment locks. Seniority is put on hold for a while if this applies to you.

And training costs are, to me, the cost of doing business. It happens.

But these costs certainly are quite pressing to JetBlue management.

As the -190's come along in larger numbers--with the new-hires eventually being assigned to them with little or no choice, this will be a shoulder-shrugging event. As if the new hire were to say "What difference does it make? I don't/won't have a choice in the aircraft I fly."

It's not right now, no. The new hires get the -320, which pays better.

But the ephemeral splitting of the pilot list into two fleets certainly doesn't help the pilots on the bottom of the list right now.

Only my humble opinion here. I just don't think the rancor will last for long.

Cheers,

SCR

 

[FLYINGBOAT]

Folks disregard this., Just checking to see if I can log on.

FIRST TIME USER.

 

[zkmayo]

Think about the last class this summer not to have a choice. The 320 class right b4 the 1st 190 class. These guys are going to have pilots 2 weeks junior to them making more from the 9 month point to the 3-3 1/2 year point.



Hutcha,

This isnt entirely true. JB will still be hiring quite a bit for the 320. There going to have to in order to 1) replace 320 fo's going to 190CA, 2) replace 320 FOs going to 320CA, and 3) largely bc of the 15 or so 320s we're getting every year for the forseeable future. Yes, for the last class this summer of 320 guys relative seniority in seat may stagnate alittle bit, but it should be only temporary.

Im a junior guy at JB and will prob not be able to hold the 190 FWIW. I believe as my seniority rises in seat I should be able to make more $ while QOL should go up considerably vs being very junior in the 190.

Much is unknown about the 190. How/if its profitable, etc. All signs point to it should be, but I think the co is taking a wait and see approach. I wouldnt be surprised if they gave everyone in it another 30% raise ala the 320 after it was proven to be profitable.

 

[Cardinal]

Came back from several days at Oshkosh -- alive with fun flying passion -- to find someone had posted dozens of pictures of Nazi crap doctored to include American Eagle stuff. Concentration camps, "work will set you free", and the trademarked AA Eagle. Oh boy.

That was legendary! I still have one picture saved, with the Eagle logo clutching a swastika. Sorry it got so ugly for you.

 

[Hutcha]

Hey Hutcha:

I think all those who bid the E190 should be given the option to upgrade before pilots who are junior. Should 200 people bid it then the bottom 80 should be placed in a pool and be given the option to upgrade after the initial 120 are trained (should they choose). This would only delay the new E190 FOs upgrade by a few month. The problem is the pay on the E190 is too low. 2nd year E190 captain pay is only $72/hour and the E190 FO pay is only $37/hour.

The first thing I said was that the pay was too low. That's the whole problem and the only real reason for the company to have a fence and limit the bid to 120. The extra 80 it takes to get to 200 will take an extra 7 months to check out. Two problems with this. The #1 new hire 190 F/O won't be able to start upgrade training for 17 months. That's 17 months at substandard wages. Not our fault, but you have to look at what's good for the group. Second, number 200 is going to train at the 16-17 month point. Let's say #200 is an April 05 hire. The first class is Aug 05. That makes it Jan 07 when he starts training. The freeze is lifted 2 yrs after the sim check. Call it March 09. That pilot has been on property for 4 years. I don't think the new hires are looking at a 4 yr upgrade to 320 capt. So, now you have guys complaining that pilots junior to them are upgrading while they are stuck on the 190.
I think the pay will come up. The 10 month upgrade time will be short lived.

 

[Hutcha]

Think about the last class this summer not to have a choice. The 320 class right b4 the 1st 190 class. These guys are going to have pilots 2 weeks junior to them making more from the 9 month point to the 3-3 1/2 year point.



Hutcha,

This isnt entirely true. JB will still be hiring quite a bit for the 320. There going to have to in order to 1) replace 320 fo's going to 190CA, 2) replace 320 FOs going to 320CA, and 3) largely bc of the 15 or so 320s we're getting every year for the forseeable future. Yes, for the last class this summer of 320 guys relative seniority in seat may stagnate alittle bit, but it should be only temporary.

Im a junior guy at JB and will prob not be able to hold the 190 FWIW. I believe as my seniority rises in seat I should be able to make more $ while QOL should go up considerably vs being very junior in the 190.

Much is unknown about the 190. How/if its profitable, etc. All signs point to it should be, but I think the co is taking a wait and see approach. I wouldnt be surprised if they gave everyone in it another 30% raise ala the 320 after it was proven to be profitable.

My point was more about the pay issue. Pilot A is in the last class before they start offering a choice between planes. Pilot B is the first pilot to be able to choose the 190. B is two weeks junior to A. A makes $56/hr (average) from months 1-42 and then upgrades. B makes $35/hr months 1-9, upgrades to 190 Capt and then makes $74/hr (avg) months 10-42. Average pay for 3.5 yrs is $65/hr.

Relative seniority will go up much faster on the 190. Look how fast it moved when the 320 was new. The pool of pilots on the 320 will be much bigger than the 190 pool for years to come. The hiring is basically doubling to accommodate the 190 (give or take). Take the first 50 pilots in the 190. Number 50 is going to jump from low man to top half in a matter of months. Top 1/4 in a year or so. Bottom guy on the 320 will take about 2 years to break the 50% mark.