Jetblue Pilots Beware

[FlyBoeingJets]

I'm not one to stick up for the Blue dudes, except when it comes to appreciating their smart moves to JetBlue, but this is killing me.

It is prohibitively expensive to allow switching airplane types every year. Just ask AA and DAL. The 2 year lock is reasonable.

You can't have it both ways. You can't brag about how much money you save by having a super regional within your seniority list then bitch how it may impact your income for 12 months during a seat lock.

JetBlue is making money and expanding because of industry leading efforts to trim costs. Didn't they cover that in the interview?

 

[Echopapa]

Add another post (and more to come) that go something like:

"jet blue managment just unilaterally instituted the following new work rule (fill in the blank)"....the last one of course was the 8 in 24 waiver that your profit minded managment requested from the FAA without any consideration for pilot safety.

The reality is that the pilot group has no say in this process. Management will set your work rules because you have no collective bargaining agreement, no common voice, and little or no ability to make an impact to your lifestlye (other than the hope of good will from managment).

It seems like some pilots are trying to indicate that Delta or United's profitablity problems have to do with their pilot unions. I cannot disagree more. Their problems are about bad management. There are many airlines that are both sucessful and profitable with pilot unions: UPS, FedEx, SWA, and Air Tran.

In fact I can think of only one "major" airline that is non-unionized......

 

[AA717driver]

How would AMR throw your contract out if they didn't own TWA at the time? Would TWA be in bankruptcy once AMR acquired TWA and assumed the debt? How could conceding your list integration rights prevent bankruptcy?

TWA pilots were obviously under a great deal of pressure at the time, the company was failing and AMR promised a better tomorrow, whether you felt forced, or were overcome by events due to the nature of TWA's corporate failure, at the end of the day, it was the lack of scope protections which sealed your fate.

Many companies have been acquired and had their section 1 contractual rights honored.

FDJ--BigMotorToter did error when he said AMR threatened the TWA pilots with 1113. The TWA management made that threat. AMR was calling the shots at the time, though (1113 was offered up by TWA management as a carrot to make the deal happen AND it was used successfully against the mighty IAM, too).

TWA filed Ch.11 as an independent company but it was part of a pre-arranged deal with AMR which offered up DIP financing (which gives them a superior position in dealing with creditor's committees and the judge).

Your second paragraph, however condescending it may be, is substantially correct--except for the part about being under pressure and the company failing (TWA's financial problems were far less public then than, say, Delta's are now.). The bottom line was that we were threatened with our CBA being stripped bare with AMR bearing down on us. No rational person would want to be in that position. Keep in mind this was the first time 1113 was used against an airline AND we were advised by ALPA's lawyers to waive our scope clause. Actually, there's not much in the second paragraph that is correct.

That's right, contrary to the inference and tone of your condescending and fundimentally inaccurate post, we weren't huddled in our cockpits pi$$ing down our legs as the prospect of impending financial ruin.

Many companies have been acquired and didn't give up their scope protections. How many have been acquired since the advent of Sec. 1113?

The TWA MEC made an "informed" decision and accepted the advice of the ALPA labor lawyer. I hope the Delta MEC gets better advice.TC

 

[KC-10 Driver]

EP, old buddy-

Can I repsectfully make some responses to your comments, and to those of some of the other posters on this thread?

The so-called "8 in 24" waiver was actually not propogated by management -- it was a grass roots effort by a group of line pilots looking to increase personal productivity. And, I think it might actually contribute to increased safety -- the FAA will have to make a judgement on that. That's all I'll say here about that subject. There have been countless threads on the subject in the past, and I have heretofore avoided posting on the subject, as my opinions on it are complex. Maybe I will make some inputs on the matter when/if it comes up again in its own thread.

As far as our pilot group having no say in "the process", most of you would be surprised to know that the opposite is very much true. I have previously worked at a major airline, represented by ALPA. Before coming to this job, I never would have believed that a non-union work force could have so much influence on the direction and policies of a company. I feel that we have a lot more say in the process here than I had at my last job. A lot more.

When or if that ever changes, then the time might come when a sizable number of us start thinking about unionizing. But for now, I just don't see it.

I wholeheartedly agree that poor management is a big factor in the difficulties that a lot of major airlines are facing these days. But that is not the only factor. Unfortunately, the contentious relationship between many airline union shops and their respective managements is also a significant factor. And, of course, there are countless other reasons why so many airlines are in trouble today, many having nothing to do with labor.

But we digress. Back to the topic...

I will admit that I am guilty of paying little attention to the E190 bidding process, since it really doesn't apply to me. But, I have had many conversations lately with F/O's on the subject. The bottom line is that it is that I understand that it is a tough decision, and a hard one to make without knowing exactly how everyone senior to you will bid. Bidding is a little like gambling.

At my last company, I was lucky enough to get assigned a 767, in the international division, right out of training as a new hire. This was the generally the most senior F/O position in the company. Occasionally, I would run into much senior F/O's who would complain that I got a 767 as a new hire. All I could ever say was that I bid for it, and was awarded it. I couldn't help it if they didn't or couldn't bid it for some reason, such as a training seat lock or fear of being junior reserve on senior equipment.

If you are at JetBlue, hopefully you believe in the long term viability of the company -- either that, or you were a good actor in your interview. In the long run, you have your system seniority. You will do fine, despite perhaps being stuck in a seat for two years or a bit more. I don't mean to be unsympathetic. That is the only response I can give. Bidding is a bit of a gamble.

Last thought, different subject: would any of you JetBlue types like to have a private forum? Southwest has a private forum on the PPRUNE message board. I know that there is an annual fee involved to maintain a private forum there (not much, think). I really don't care whether or not our laundry is displayed here. But, some of the posts in this thread indicate a dislike for pure JetBlue issues being discussed on a public message board. Just a thought -- if someone has the time and energy, they could look into a JetBlue forum on PPRUNE. I would probably join.

This is more than I usually post in three months' time. I need a break now.

 

[FDJ2]

FDJThat's right, contrary to the inference and tone of your condescending and fundimentally inaccurate post, we weren't huddled in our cockpits pi$$ing down our legs as the prospect of impending financial ruin.....

The TWA MEC made an "informed" decision and accepted the advice of the ALPA labor lawyer. I hope the Delta MEC gets better advice.TC

Condescending? YGTBSM. You must be some sort of mind reader.

First is it a stretch or condescending to say that TWA was facing corporate failure? Is it a stretch or condescending to say that TWA pilots were under a great deal of pressure when faced with that pending failure and its ramifications? Is it inaccurate or condescending to state that the TWA pilots were promised fair and equitable treatment by the APA if they conceded their list integration rights?

Let me see, under your scenario the TWA pilots were under no pressure and the company was doing dandy and then all of a sudden some ALPA National lawyer came down and said, "hey guys how about you boys concede your your list integration rights." Yeah right.

You need to get your story staight. Was TWA facing financial ruin or not, were the TWA pilots under pressure from that or not and were the TWA pilots promised fair and equitable treatment or not? There is nothing condescending in any of that.

 

[IB6 UB9]

Are there two threads in one here?

 

[dgs]

Actually, I think there are now three threads.

1. EMB-190 bid at JetBlue

2. TWA history (Moderators -- Can we get this split out and moved to its own thread?)

3. Private BBS. I support that idea and suggested it to an Assistant Chief Pilot almost three years ago. My original idea was to have a company-based BBS where the "big guys" could weigh in and provide responses to common questions. I hate hearing David and Dave answer the same questions over and over again. I thought if all the questions could be asked and answered in one place, our communication could be more efficient--somewhat like a virtual pocket session. It could be moderated by volunteers, much like any public BBS, to prevent misbehavior. It could also contain sections for each major part of the company. I thought the free exchange of ideas would be productive, but the person I spoke with feared it would just turn into a b!tch session and killed the idea. Maybe the time has come to have these discussions on a private BBS instead of a public forum. What do other B6 pilots think? Is it time to ask again?

 

[jaxgus]

Fantastic Idea

Actually, I think there are now three threads.

3. Private BBS. I support that idea and suggested it to an Assistant Chief Pilot almost three years ago. My original idea was to have a company-based BBS where the "big guys" could weigh in and provide responses to common questions. I hate hearing David and Dave answer the same questions over and over again. I thought if all the questions could be asked and answered in one place, our communication could be more efficient--somewhat like a virtual pocket session. It could be moderated by volunteers, much like any public BBS, to prevent misbehavior. It could also contain sections for each major part of the company. I thought the free exchange of ideas would be productive, but the person I spoke with feared it would just turn into a b!tch session and killed the idea. Maybe the time has come to have these discussions on a private BBS instead of a public forum. What do other B6 pilots think? Is it time to ask again?

Fantastic idea, this is what CRM is all about, effictive communication. I think having a place where all pilots feel COMFORTABLE sharing their ideas would be a wonderful asset to our company. I especially like the idea of allowing leadership to see what's being said so they can gauge where the group's concerns are heading. Additionally, once they read through the whines, they can answer our concerns and hopefully implement some of the good ideas. The history of this industry tends to force some folks with great ideas to keep their mouths shut for fear of reprisal.

Keeping our internal issues internal is very important in a competetive, commodity based industry.

jaxgus

 

[Skygod]

There are several options for a virtual water cooler. Advantages and disadvantages with each.

Open and anonymous. Anyone can post anything. You get some funny sh:t, some wild rumours, but a low signal to noise ratio. The biggest problem, as here, is every weak-stick-failed-the-interview posting you-don't-pay-for-your-planes trash. No privacy for discussing stuff amongst ourselves. Look at www.eaglelounge.com


Private and named. A closed forum that requires some test to read/post, such as checking crewmember id against name or (this would work) email from [email protected] Less wild sh:t. Higher signal to noise. Posts can still be cut-and-pasted onto flightinfo or sent to management. There is no completely private electronic forum.


Private company run. The problem here is liability. Remember Pete's note about calling him on the phone with solutions rather than emailing him. A company forum would run into the same problems. But it would have to best info. The three Dave's would just have to answer a question once.


And of course there are several forum versions inbetween these extreames. I'd be interested in a more private forum just for JetBlue pilots. But having been there, done that, got the calls from company and ALPA lawyers I would not want to be the one doing it again! Came back from several days at Oshkosh -- alive with fun flying passion -- to find someone had posted dozens of pictures of Nazi crap doctored to include American Eagle stuff. Concentration camps, "work will set you free", and the trademarked AA Eagle. Oh boy.

 

[cgmason1]

one way to combat (but not totally resolve) the issue 787 has brought up would be to also bid the EMB F/O position as well as the CPT position.
That way if you are too junior to get the CPT position you will most likely get the F/O spot and be first inline for the follow on upgrades-since its an aircraft two year lock-not a seat lock.
I know getting an EMB F/O position might be seen as a backward move (and a money loss) but just trying to offer some sort of positive solution to the concern you have raised.

Fly Safe
Chuck

 

[AA717driver]

FDJ2--TWA was in no APPARENT (read: public) imminent danger. The money was coming in and going out. Paychecks were still coming. Things had been MUCH worse. In fact, we all thought it was strange that the company had recently (summer of 2000) started paying down debt and paying accounts payable well IN ADVANCE. Hummmm...

I was privvy to the inner workings of the the company and the union at the time. You weren't. Quit trying to debate me on a subject on which you gained your information substantially from USA Today and APA press releases. Go back to Peachtree City and drink your double-breasted kool-ade.

Sorry for the mini-hijack JB guys. Had to dump the lav... TC

P.S.--Yes, I'm being uncharacteristically nasty but I can't stand people sticking their noses in where they don't even know what they're smelling for...

 

[SoCentralRain]

The bottom line is that it is that I understand that it is a tough decision, and a hard one to make without knowing exactly how everyone senior to you will bid. Bidding is a little like gambling.

In regards to bidding, when I was a new-hire at UAL I heard the following countless times.

"Bid what you want. Want what you bid." Makes sense.

 

[banger]

Add another post (and more to come) that go something like:

...managment requested from the FAA without any consideration for pilot safety.



Your opinion/arguement of whether or not it is a good idea is weakened when you make statements that are untrue.

 

[Dave Benjamin]

This post was only written to inform other jetBlue pilots of an internal issue. Yes, jetBlue has them just like everyone else. I will be the first to say we have one of the best mgt. teams in the industry but we are human.

For such a high tech airline I'm surprised they don't have some sort of website with access limited to pilots on the senioirty list for you to air your gripes.

 

[Floatplane]

Yo Dave!!

Your airline does not provide your website. It was put together by one of your pilots on his own time and at his own expense.