Jetblue Pilots Beware

[Flying Freddie]

That's news to me, I didn't realize you had a PWA. What does it say about scope, successorship, training locks and seniority rights, new aircraft pay and work rules? Who enforces your Pilot Working Agreement? How are grievances resolved?

Better than ALPO. I had an "ironclad" scope clause and was still replaced by another ALPO carrier. Keep paying the dues. When the suit is settled your dues will be raised to pay for all the years I paid dues.

 

[Dizel8]

That's news to me, I didn't realize you had a PWA. What does it say about scope, successorship, training locks and seniority rights, new aircraft pay and work rules? Who enforces your Pilot Working Agreement? How are grievances resolved?

I have neither the time nor inclination to address those issues, but most are indeed in the contract and in communications put forth by the company officers.

The problem with any contract, as we have all seen, lies not in what it says, but if the parties (read management, most of the time) to the contract intends to honour it. As we have seen repeatedly, supposedly iron clad contracts, were indeed rendered worthless by fancy legal foot work, Ch.11s or outright lies, fraud and deceit.

Ask the TWA pilots, the U pilots, the AMR pilots, the United pilots etc., ask a matter of fact, you can just about ask any pilot and to whether or not his contract was always followed to the letter. I think, in most cases, the answer would be no, although the contract came in a pretty little booklet with a union stamp on it. Sort of reminds me of the scene from Tommyboy, when he tries to sell his brake pads, vs one who had a guarantee

That is the problem for all of us "lowly" wage earners, that what once was sealed with a promise and a handshake, is now being twisted to suit the needs of the corporation, contract notwithstanding.

A contract, while pretty, is no substitute for intent!

 

[Dizel8]

Here is the tommyboy reference, might brighten the day, great flick btw.

Tommy is trying to sell brakepads, but is competing against evil Zalinsky, who puts a guarantee on his box of brakepads:

"Tommy: Let's think about this for a sec, Ted, why do they put a guarantee on a box? Hmm, very interesting.
Ted : I'm listening.
Tommy : Here's how I see it. A guy puts a guarantee on the box 'cause he wants you to fell all warm and toasty inside.
Ted : Yeah, makes a man feel good.
Tommy : 'Course it does. Ya think if you leave that box under your pillow at night, the Guarantee Fairy might come by and leave a quarter.
Ted : What's your point?
Tommy : The point is, how do you know the Guarantee Fairy isn't a crazy glue sniffer? "Building model airplanes" says the little fairy, but we're not buying it. Next thing you know, there's money missing off the dresser and your daughter's knocked up, I seen it a hundred times.
Ted : But why do they put a guarantee on the box then?
Tommy : Because they know all they solda ya was a guaranteed piece of **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**. That's all it is. Hey, if you want me to take a dump in a box and mark it guaranteed, I will. I got spare time. But for right now, for your sake, for your daughter's sake, ya might wanna think about buying a quality item from me.
Ted : Hmm. Okay, I'll buy from you."

 

[FDJ2]

Ask the TWA pilots, the U pilots, the AMR pilots, the United pilots etc., ask a matter of fact, you can just about ask any pilot and to whether or not his contract was always followed to the letter.

I can understand your kumba ya attitude with your management. So far, so good, for now.

No contract is always followed to the letter, there will always be grievances. But there is also a grievance procedure and grievances are eventually settled. The TWA pilots got hammered in their list integration not because they had scope protections, but because they conceded those protections prior to the acquisition hoping for that mythical good intent and fair play. The end result was predictable. If their is a violation of any PWA it can be grieved and that grievance will ultimately be settled. Don't confuse contractual concessions with contract violations.

I take it from your response that you have no real protections in your contract and you're fine with that.


Tommy: Did you hear I graduated?
Richard: Yeah and just a shade under a decade. All right.
Tommy: A lot of people go to college for seven years.
Richard: Yeah, they're called doctors

 

[FNG320]

The fence prevents the pilots from bidding between AC for two years. The equipment lock in prevents you from changing seat or equipment for two years from your check ride. The author suggests that there will typically be 8 to 12 vacancies per month on the A320 for the foreseeable future (the inference being and average of 10 per month)..

Slight right and slightly wrong. Yes there will be a fence between types for two years. This is to add stability to the 190 fleet, reduce training cost, and provide the 12 month upgrade to CAPT for new 190 FO. However it is a type lock, not a seat lock. You can upgrade to CAPT in the type your are locked into.

However, once the fence comes down (Oct07), I see mass instablity between types, a massive increase in training cost as people jump between types to get the best pay. I'm sure that then they will come up with some other type of lock to stop this. That is when the crap will hit the fan.

I can also see the potential for guys to be JR assigned to the 190. It may not happen right away (1-3 years), but I see it happening unless something is done to level the field between types.

Just my opinion...

FNG

 

[PCL_128]

Hopefully we will never say ALPA, but inhouse.

Not about to further fund Mr. Worthless life style!

Oh, btw, jetblue pilots have a legally binding contract!

Yeah, it's just terrible to have that ALPA aeromedical and legal protection when I need it. Not to mention the accident investigation teams, accident hotline, financial analysis department, NASMOD committee, etc... that works to help all of us.

In house unions serve one single purpose: negotiate a contract and handle grievances. In house unions don't have the resources to handle in depth accident investigations or to research a complex medical issue that could affect your first class medical. ALPA is able to provide these things because of its huge member base. I'll stick with ALPA thank you very much.

 

[2dogs]

jetBlue disaster ..beware!

Another Delta school solution garanteed to bring disaster to jetBlue.

I postulated that our VP of OPS really is ALPA undercover agent.

However, it was brought to my attention that he probably still works for Delta!

2dogs

Recently the company released a document explaining the bidding process of the E190. The document explains the virtues of a percentage bid (allows you to bid what percentage you want to be rather than all or nothing). It seems to be a great idea. The document also explains the “lock in” and “fence” for the AC. The fence begins on October 1, 2005 and ends on October 1, 2007. The company is awarding 120 vacancies for E190 CA to close May 15, 2005. The fence prevents the pilots from bidding between AC for two years. The equipment lock in prevents you from changing seat or equipment for two years from your check ride. The author suggests that there will typically be 8 to 12 vacancies per month on the A320 for the foreseeable future (the inference being and average of 10 per month).



A little background: jetBlue Airways currently employs approximately 1000 pilots. 500 CAs and 500 FOs. Present junior A320 CAs can expect to remain about a year on reserve. This time increases linearly as we grow. We are receiving 16 A320 per year with a staffing of 6 crew per AC per the bid document.



Potential bid scenario: If you are a current (read: on property) junior FO there is a high probability that you will be unable to hold EMB190 CA when the 120 vacancies close on May 15. The fence now prohibits you from bidding future vacancies until October 1, 2007. Ah but wait, a new hire junior to anyone currently on property can bid as soon as any vacancy comes available. The company plans to start training the first 20 or so to be check airmen early summer with regular classes beginning late summer to complete the 120 by early 2006. Those early pilots will fulfill their lock in before the fence and as such will be allowed to bid A320 CA October 1, 2007.



The problem: 16 AC per year @ 6 crews per AC=96 CAs /12 months = 8 per month, not 10. This was, in my opinion, intentionally misleading. So here is what will likely happen…You are locked out of E190 CA but told your time to A320 will be much quicker. Not so if you are junior. What I and others envision is that just when you are a few months shy of upgrading to A320 it will be October 1, 2007. Perfect timing for the senior guys that have been hanging out as E190 CAs to bid over to the A320 to hold a line. Making a realistic time to E190 CA more that three years and A320 four to five for the junior guys. All of this because the company wants to claim a 10 month time to CA for new hires because the pay is very low. The company is kind enough to allow the junior guys to subsidies this.



The author of the document states some concerns that were discussed during the construction of the bid process. On of those concerns was this: “Why is there so much concern for the new hire pilot at the expense of the career opportunity of the existing jetBlue pilot?” Answer: “We feel this strategy reflects our values and is in keeping with the input of our line pilots…” Whos values are those? What line pilots suggested the fence knowing that new hires would be afforded opportunities before existing pilots? I think a fence was suggested but I never heard anything about allowing future vacancies to be denied to current pilots.

 

[BigMotorToter]

The TWA pilots got hammered in their list integration not because they had scope protections, but because they conceded those protections prior to the acquisition hoping for that mythical good intent and fair play. The end result was predictable.

No we didn't. We were forced to give up the scope clause not because we thought AMR or APA were going to treat us fairly, but because if we didn't, AMR was going to move (via the 1113 bankruptcy) to have our entire contract thrown out, which meant we would have been without any contract whatsoever. The last thing we wanted was to give up our railway labor protections, but again because of the 1113 we were forced to.

As far as I know, we were the first airline to have the then little known 1113 used against. ALPA thought they had fought and won the issue of airlines using bankruptcy to abrogate labor contracts (Frank Lorenzo), but then this little thing known as the 1113 apeared, which most of us are unfortunatly too familiar with now. What drives me crazy is that back in 2001 we (TWA MEC) tried to warn all the other ALPA carriers about this 1113 bankruptcy clause at the ALPA national meeting in Herndon VA. All we got was, " Well we are profitable co.'s and it won't happen to us", and "maybe you TWA guys should fall on the sword for the greater good for ALPA (getting the APA into ALPA). There's brotherhood for you.

Just think if the MEC's of UAL or USairways or DAL etc... would have listened, we could have at least had a head start on trying to make the 1113 clause less of a tool of managment to destroy labor contracts. But it was the same ole thing, we got ours and too bad for you.

We are all now paying the price for arrogance and ignorance.

 

[bluejuice787]

Slight right and slightly wrong. Yes there will be a fence between types for two years. This is to add stability to the 190 fleet, reduce training cost, and provide the 12 month upgrade to CAPT for new 190 FO. However it is a type lock, not a seat lock. You can upgrade to CAPT in the type your are locked into.

However, once the fence comes down (Oct07), I see mass instablity between types, a massive increase in training cost as people jump between types to get the best pay. I'm sure that then they will come up with some other type of lock to stop this. That is when the crap will hit the fan.

I can also see the potential for guys to be JR assigned to the 190. It may not happen right away (1-3 years), but I see it happening unless something is done to level the field between types.

Just my opinion...

FNG

FNG,

I apologize, I did not mean to say "seat" just "equipment". Thank you for keeping me on my toes. The point, however, is that many may not be able to upgrade in their respective equipment.

I believe a possible solution might be to increase the "lock-in" to three years as that is the going time to A320 anyway. Seniority is really all we have. And as someone else posted "...who do you have to enforce it?..."

Bluejuice

 

[FDJ2]

No we didn't. We were forced to give up the scope clause not because we thought AMR or APA were going to treat us fairly, but because if we didn't, AMR was going to move (via the 1113 bankruptcy) to have our entire contract thrown out, which meant we would have been without any contract whatsoever. The last thing we wanted was to give up our railway labor protections, but again because of the 1113 we were forced to.

How would AMR throw your contract out if they didn't own TWA at the time? Would TWA be in bankruptcy once AMR acquired TWA and assumed the debt? How could conceding your list integration rights prevent bankruptcy?

TWA pilots were obviously under a great deal of pressure at the time, the company was failing and AMR promised a better tomorrow, whether you felt forced, or were overcome by events due to the nature of TWA's corporate failure, at the end of the day, it was the lack of scope protections which sealed your fate.

Many companies have been acquired and had their section 1 contractual rights honored.