Jetblue Pilots Beware

[PCL_128]

Hopefully we will never say ALPA, but inhouse.

Not about to further fund Mr. Worthless life style!

Oh, btw, jetblue pilots have a legally binding contract!

Yeah, it's just terrible to have that ALPA aeromedical and legal protection when I need it. Not to mention the accident investigation teams, accident hotline, financial analysis department, NASMOD committee, etc... that works to help all of us.

In house unions serve one single purpose: negotiate a contract and handle grievances. In house unions don't have the resources to handle in depth accident investigations or to research a complex medical issue that could affect your first class medical. ALPA is able to provide these things because of its huge member base. I'll stick with ALPA thank you very much.

 

[2dogs]

jetBlue disaster ..beware!

Another Delta school solution garanteed to bring disaster to jetBlue.

I postulated that our VP of OPS really is ALPA undercover agent.

However, it was brought to my attention that he probably still works for Delta!

2dogs

Recently the company released a document explaining the bidding process of the E190. The document explains the virtues of a percentage bid (allows you to bid what percentage you want to be rather than all or nothing). It seems to be a great idea. The document also explains the “lock in” and “fence” for the AC. The fence begins on October 1, 2005 and ends on October 1, 2007. The company is awarding 120 vacancies for E190 CA to close May 15, 2005. The fence prevents the pilots from bidding between AC for two years. The equipment lock in prevents you from changing seat or equipment for two years from your check ride. The author suggests that there will typically be 8 to 12 vacancies per month on the A320 for the foreseeable future (the inference being and average of 10 per month).



A little background: jetBlue Airways currently employs approximately 1000 pilots. 500 CAs and 500 FOs. Present junior A320 CAs can expect to remain about a year on reserve. This time increases linearly as we grow. We are receiving 16 A320 per year with a staffing of 6 crew per AC per the bid document.



Potential bid scenario: If you are a current (read: on property) junior FO there is a high probability that you will be unable to hold EMB190 CA when the 120 vacancies close on May 15. The fence now prohibits you from bidding future vacancies until October 1, 2007. Ah but wait, a new hire junior to anyone currently on property can bid as soon as any vacancy comes available. The company plans to start training the first 20 or so to be check airmen early summer with regular classes beginning late summer to complete the 120 by early 2006. Those early pilots will fulfill their lock in before the fence and as such will be allowed to bid A320 CA October 1, 2007.



The problem: 16 AC per year @ 6 crews per AC=96 CAs /12 months = 8 per month, not 10. This was, in my opinion, intentionally misleading. So here is what will likely happen…You are locked out of E190 CA but told your time to A320 will be much quicker. Not so if you are junior. What I and others envision is that just when you are a few months shy of upgrading to A320 it will be October 1, 2007. Perfect timing for the senior guys that have been hanging out as E190 CAs to bid over to the A320 to hold a line. Making a realistic time to E190 CA more that three years and A320 four to five for the junior guys. All of this because the company wants to claim a 10 month time to CA for new hires because the pay is very low. The company is kind enough to allow the junior guys to subsidies this.



The author of the document states some concerns that were discussed during the construction of the bid process. On of those concerns was this: “Why is there so much concern for the new hire pilot at the expense of the career opportunity of the existing jetBlue pilot?” Answer: “We feel this strategy reflects our values and is in keeping with the input of our line pilots…” Whos values are those? What line pilots suggested the fence knowing that new hires would be afforded opportunities before existing pilots? I think a fence was suggested but I never heard anything about allowing future vacancies to be denied to current pilots.

 

[BigMotorToter]

The TWA pilots got hammered in their list integration not because they had scope protections, but because they conceded those protections prior to the acquisition hoping for that mythical good intent and fair play. The end result was predictable.

No we didn't. We were forced to give up the scope clause not because we thought AMR or APA were going to treat us fairly, but because if we didn't, AMR was going to move (via the 1113 bankruptcy) to have our entire contract thrown out, which meant we would have been without any contract whatsoever. The last thing we wanted was to give up our railway labor protections, but again because of the 1113 we were forced to.

As far as I know, we were the first airline to have the then little known 1113 used against. ALPA thought they had fought and won the issue of airlines using bankruptcy to abrogate labor contracts (Frank Lorenzo), but then this little thing known as the 1113 apeared, which most of us are unfortunatly too familiar with now. What drives me crazy is that back in 2001 we (TWA MEC) tried to warn all the other ALPA carriers about this 1113 bankruptcy clause at the ALPA national meeting in Herndon VA. All we got was, " Well we are profitable co.'s and it won't happen to us", and "maybe you TWA guys should fall on the sword for the greater good for ALPA (getting the APA into ALPA). There's brotherhood for you.

Just think if the MEC's of UAL or USairways or DAL etc... would have listened, we could have at least had a head start on trying to make the 1113 clause less of a tool of managment to destroy labor contracts. But it was the same ole thing, we got ours and too bad for you.

We are all now paying the price for arrogance and ignorance.

 

[bluejuice787]

Slight right and slightly wrong. Yes there will be a fence between types for two years. This is to add stability to the 190 fleet, reduce training cost, and provide the 12 month upgrade to CAPT for new 190 FO. However it is a type lock, not a seat lock. You can upgrade to CAPT in the type your are locked into.

However, once the fence comes down (Oct07), I see mass instablity between types, a massive increase in training cost as people jump between types to get the best pay. I'm sure that then they will come up with some other type of lock to stop this. That is when the crap will hit the fan.

I can also see the potential for guys to be JR assigned to the 190. It may not happen right away (1-3 years), but I see it happening unless something is done to level the field between types.

Just my opinion...

FNG

FNG,

I apologize, I did not mean to say "seat" just "equipment". Thank you for keeping me on my toes. The point, however, is that many may not be able to upgrade in their respective equipment.

I believe a possible solution might be to increase the "lock-in" to three years as that is the going time to A320 anyway. Seniority is really all we have. And as someone else posted "...who do you have to enforce it?..."

Bluejuice

 

[FDJ2]

No we didn't. We were forced to give up the scope clause not because we thought AMR or APA were going to treat us fairly, but because if we didn't, AMR was going to move (via the 1113 bankruptcy) to have our entire contract thrown out, which meant we would have been without any contract whatsoever. The last thing we wanted was to give up our railway labor protections, but again because of the 1113 we were forced to.

How would AMR throw your contract out if they didn't own TWA at the time? Would TWA be in bankruptcy once AMR acquired TWA and assumed the debt? How could conceding your list integration rights prevent bankruptcy?

TWA pilots were obviously under a great deal of pressure at the time, the company was failing and AMR promised a better tomorrow, whether you felt forced, or were overcome by events due to the nature of TWA's corporate failure, at the end of the day, it was the lack of scope protections which sealed your fate.

Many companies have been acquired and had their section 1 contractual rights honored.

 

[Chronic Jetlag]

More disclosure is needed!

Imagine the strife and discontent when the E190 awards come out on 5-15 and it goes senior. Imagine if 150 people bid it and the bottom 30 are locked out. Those 30 are locked out while watching junior E190 F/Os take the left seat after 10-12 months! Management is just hoping the bid goes junior; and if they officially announce the creation of a pool for the bottom bidders/none award pilots the option to upgrade before the junior E190 F/Os then that announcement in itself will distort the bid. If a subsequent announcement is made by management to upgrade the pool before any junior E190 F/Os upgrade then they will come out looking like heros...upholding the 5 core values/ "integrity". Are the 5 core values we live by just a rally cry and a punch line or real values we adhere to?
This is a dangerous game being played by management. This is how unions get started.

 

[a320drivr]

yee haw boys!!! I told you all that cool aid drinking would come back to bite us in the ass. We have to look out for ourselves as a group.

 

[a320drivr]

PCL,

Most in house unions contract out to ALPO anyways so you still get your money. I know SWAPA contracts out stuff to ALPO.

 

[Paul R. Smith]

PCL,

Most in house unions contract out to ALPO anyways so you still get your money. I know SWAPA contracts out stuff to ALPO.

Am I losing my mind?

Whats ALPO? I thought it was dogfood.

ALPA is a union on the other hand

 

[scarlet]

BUY BOEING the AMERICAN People would appreciate it.........

The EUROS love you guys

NO UNION -- LOW PAY--

 

[TonyC]

Whats ALPO? I thought it was dogfood.

"ALPO" is a very intelligent, quite original, and extremely insightful insult. It ranks right up there with "nanny nanny poo poo" and "bounce off me and back on you."








.

 

[jetblue320]

"ALPO" is a very intelligent, quite original, and extremely insightful insult. It ranks right up there with "nanny nanny poo poo" and "bounce off me and back on you."








.

That has to be the most intelligent post you have ever made Tony.....


Kudos to you!!

C yaaa

 

[B6Guy]

Makes sense

Scarlet: Buy Boeing?? NWA has the largest fleet of Airbus products [last I heard]. Also: No union = low pay, have you talked with a UAL pilot lately??
Get your 'facts' at least close to right.

As for this entire thread, BlueJuice, if you spent as much time working towards a better way to bid the E190 instead of posting your distrust and 'conspiracy theory' type comments on a public, annoymous forum then maybe the problems with the bid process could be corrected or at least reduced.

I don't see ANYTHING positive from your 'BEWARE' post. Maybe you should figure out a way to contact all the potential E190 bidders is a less public manner?? What have you accomplished here? Who are you reaching on this forum that you can't reach in a more private/productive manner??

Our company has typically received more airplanes than first scheduled each year, and therefore maybe the captain upgrades will be at the rate that management 'intentionally mislead' us with.

While there are several possible ways to 'fine-tune' the E190 bid process I think it is at least workable. There will be without a doubt many pilots who will be unhappy with the outcome.

There are bound to be pilots who 'wish they had' or 'should 'a/ could'a/ would 'a' after the bid is done. I personally would have liked to have seen several 'practice bids' There are bound to be guys who if they had bid 18% instead of say 15% would have been awarded a slot. But of course they will come here on a public forum and blast the process, in the most negative way possible instead of taking responsibilty for their own decisions.

I'm surprised that we don't get monthly 'crying towel' threads about how badly ClassBid treated someone or another.

B6 is the best place I have ever worked, and I've been at quite a few operations. It isn't perfect, no place is, unless of course you are an ALPO fanatic then there can be no wrong done, since of course if we pay our dues the ALPO reps must do a good job representing us in all discussions and create Nirvana for us. Right,?

 

[DIAMONDDD]

BUY BOEING the AMERICAN People would appreciate it.........

The EUROS love you guys

NO UNION -- LOW PAY--

Tell me again, I must have missed your answer from the other thread, where is a CL-65 built? Utah? Washington? Iowa? Surely it is built in the USA. Surely.

 

[fredflyer]

Originally posted by bluejuice 787:
"This post was only written to inform other jetBlue pilots of an internal issue"


You picked a very appropriate place to do that......