Jetblue pilots begin organization drive...

[scoreboard]

Hey scoreboard, stand back and look at it from as an objective perspective as you can and you will see that the LCCs are willing participants in the race to the bottom.

Don't get POed when the virgin US guys or whoever is next to fly airbuses for peanuts thinks their getting over making say, 100K/year? How about 75K/year as an airbus Captain? Jetblue and the so called legacies are paying Captains what first officers should make. FIX IT!!!!!!

Lets see, standing, backing, objective, OK. First, it's business, it's not about getting PO'd, It's about the LCC's offering a service that consumers prefer over that of the Legacy. The failure is in the legacies management team, not the LCC's management team. Virgin? I think they just got the boot.

Fix what? I like what I see, I have great work rules, benefits, pay, if you don't, you fix it. Oh, and objectively as you can IF you do manage to get your company to succumb to your pay demands, start saving for that rainy day, you'll need it...

You haven't looked around lately have you, pay for every profession is stagnant or retracting, deal with it brother.

 

[FlyBoeingJets]

I'm an outsider looking in. I don't flame JetBlue but am curious on going ons there....


It was evident 6 months ago that the next year would be tough. Delayed orders and other expenditures affecting cashflow...temporarily. I predicted and still forecast midterm success for the Blue after the cash "crisis" is overcome.

But that doesn't help those working there and feeling the pinch on upgrades/pay. I predicted a trickle to an exodus of pilots and a union drive when the number of Airbus and EMB F/O's reached a critical mass. Somewhere in the neighborhood of the two combined exceeding the number of Airbus CA's. A rough guess, but it coincides with stagnation of upgrades.

I'm thinking D and D can't tell you more than they tell investors due to SEC rules. That's too bad. I'm sure they would like to share the whole plan but can't since it would give competitors an advantage or is "speculation". Is there something more to their communcitions outsiders can't see? You guys seem pretty peed off now.

Lastly, I don't revel in any of the unhappiness at JetBlue. I wish you guys relative success (survival). I predict you will be around for long while. I think organization (ALPA or otherwise) is good for you at this point in your life cycle. It will bring some certainty to your individual situations. Scheduling, work rules and merger protection. It won't be wonderful, but most of you know that.

The super senior dudes are going to fight over this one. Some will error on keeping the status quo to enhance company profit over pilot upgrades and pay. Some want certain pay increases that will help all pilots but cut profit (and growth??). Both are a matter of perspective. I guess it depends if you thought the first 5 years was a sacrifice during startup with money to flow after or if you thought it was a permanent paycut to ensure company goals.

 

[Occam's Razor]

First, it's business, it's not about getting PO'd, It's about the LCC's offering a service that consumers prefer over that of the Legacy. The failure is in the legacies management team, not the LCC's management team.

The LCC's exist, and have always existed, in markets where they believe the consumer will be attracted to an alternative. The attraction is usually price, convienence, or "service". The history of the industy features plenty of start-up LCC's that whacked the beehive, got swarmed...and are now gone. (For a complete list, log onto www.PeoplesExress.gone) The latest wave of LCC's got a nose under the tent flap during a period of vicious body-blows to the industry. Manufacturers, vendors, lenders, and displaced workers were eager to invest in the opportunity they presented.

Luckily for our fellow pilots, none of us believed Doug Steenland when he stood before NWA pilots and told us, "JetBlue is paying their A320 captains $130 an hour. That's the new value of Airbus pilots." Most of us recognized that JetBlue represents a very small segment of the US airline industry. I'm sure they got similar rhetoric from their CEO when the E-190 rates were announced. (Note: Not "negotiated"..."announced")

Fix what? I like what I see, I have great work rules, benefits, pay, if you don't, you fix it.

Ironic. The topic is about organizing.

If most JetBlue pilots determine they want to fix their work rules, benefits, and pay...how do you propose they do it? Please be as specific as possible. I'm interested in hearing your recommendations on how they should determine, then exert, their collective will.

Oh, and objectively as you can IF you do manage to get your company to succumb to your pay demands, start saving for that rainy day, you'll need it....

Good call! Every pilot should save as much as possible.

You haven't looked around lately have you, pay for every profession is stagnant or retracting, deal with it brother.

If only you were correct. The CEO profession seems to be doing pretty well...even when their companies aren't.

 

[scoreboard]

We agree more than disagree. I think your mistaking me for a JB pilot, I'm only responding to the implied "LCC cause all woes" brought up by skykid. My response points out "what has ALPA" done for their members of legacies, not that JB shouldn't use something like them. I'm brand SWA, we have our own union, such as it is. CEO pay is a problem, I'm just a part of the proletariat, can't solve that issue.

 

[lowecur]

If most JetBlue pilots determine they want to fix their work rules, benefits, and pay...how do you propose they do it? Trust mgt to do what's best for everyone or leave the company. Please be as specific as possible. Is that specific enough? I'm interested in hearing your recommendations on how they should determine, then exert, their collective will.

There is no such thing as collective will, there is only the bifurcation between the junior and senior ranks where a collective pecking order is created for the benefit of you know who.

Lets hear you play devil's advocate and expound upon what Jetblue mgt should have done and when they should have done it? Be specific on pay increases (percentage), work rules, and benefits. Then tell us all in your inimitable wisdom how Jetblue can still maintain a competitive edge, not fracture other employee groups and garner 10-15% profit margins?

imp:​

 

[PCL_128]

Trust mgt to do what's best for everyone

That's quite possibly the funniest thing I've ever read. Thanks for the laughs! :laugh:

 

[HA25]

That's quite possibly the funniest thing I've ever read. Thanks for the laughs! :laugh:

That must be the Hawaiian punch variety of Koolaid.. double strength brew.

 

[lowecur]

That's quite possibly the funniest thing I've ever read. Thanks for the laughs! :laugh:

You sir, have not followed my storied pontifications on this board.

Now I'm off to watch Mike Hart and Co, and you can snap your panties and remember who runs this world.

imp:​

 

[Occam's Razor]

Trust mgt to do what's best for everyone or leave the company.

Is that you, Mr. Lay? I thought you were dead! Mr. Skilling is going to come up here for 7-10 winters in Minnesota, while you're spending eternity in Dante's 8th ring. (Bummer about O.J. booking that 9th ring, huh?) All the ex-Enron employees wish you the best!

There is no such thing as collective will, there is only the bifurcation between the junior and senior ranks where a collective pecking order is created for the benefit of you know who.

(sigh)

That "bifurcation" thingy? Is that what they used at Comair in '01 and NWA in '98...when 100% of the pilots walked? You remember...the senior NWA pilots walked off the job to end the B-scale (which was still on the table at the deadline)? That 100% included the 3,000 pilots who'd never been on a B-scale.

Your thesis fails on empirical evaluation of the facts.

Try again.

Lets hear you play devil's advocate and expound upon what Jetblue mgt should have done and when they should have done it? Be specific on pay increases (percentage), work rules, and benefits.

Don't know. Don't care.

JetBlue management can do what ever they choose.

The JetBlue pilots have chosen to "trust mgt to do what's best for everyone...".

Then tell us all in your inimitable wisdom how Jetblue can still maintain a competitive edge, not fracture other employee groups and garner 10-15% profit margins?

1. I don't care if JetBlue gains, let alone "maintains" a competitive edge.
2. I don't believe JetBlue will ever achieve and maintain 10-15% profit margins (EBIDAR). I think they will feel a lot of competitive pressure from the legacy carriers over the coming quarters.

 

[IronCityBlue]

easy questions, easy answers

There is no such thing as collective will, there is only the bifurcation between the junior and senior ranks where a collective pecking order is created for the benefit of you know who. Are you talking about a handful of CEO's, analysts, speculators and pundits who wax on and off about the trials and tribulations of the greedy labor cost unit?

Lets hear you play devil's advocate and expound upon what Jetblue mgt should have done and when they should have done it? Be specific on pay increases (percentage), COLA (at least partial COLA) for 320 pilots and 60-65% Captain pay for FO's work rules Better reserve rules for starters and a few other minor things. We all know Rome wasn't built in a day., and benefits. AirTran has a 10.5% B fund and a 15% discount (I believe) stock purchase plan. I think that's HIGHLY attainable right now and wouldn't "choke the golden goose" Then tell us all in your inimitable wisdom how Jetblue can still maintain a competitive edge, Great product, reasonable fares, expanding and improving consumer reach (miles program, maybe some intl alliances, connecting the dots and adding a few kew markets and a first class, the lack of which is by far our biggest burden, not pilot pay) not fracture other employee groups We deserve to be compensated significantly better than our fellow employees who come to the job off the street with no required education and a 3 week training course (or less). Anyone who can't handel that fact can high tail it back to the USSR where they belong. and garner 10-15% profit margins? I'm in favor of the highest profit margin possible. But I'm under no illusion that you have to make 10-15% to be viable. What's Southwest's long term profit margin been? If JetBlue makes 5-10% even if your assumption is true that better pilot compensation that still keeps pilot CASM among the lowest in the nation will have a large impact on the profit margin of a well run company is true (which it isn't, and you know that) it would still be a very profitable company, especially on scale for a company its size now.

imp:​

.....

 

[HA25]

[/COLOR] I think they will feel a lot of competitive pressure from the legacy carriers over the coming quarters.

Not to mention Southwest, Airtran, Frontier, Spirit, and all of the other LCC WN wanabees..

It's a fad I tell you, just like the dot.bomb.. the legacies will always rain supreme.

 

[scoreboard]

the legacies will always rain supreme.

Riiight..... Just like TWA, Pan Am, Western, Piedmont, unfortunately the list goes on... Most will survive because they will do what is required. Others will fail, SWA may fail, but to say the LCC model is flawed, well, we got thirty plus years and counting...

Ironic you spelled it "rain supreme" as in fall from the sky...

Legacies Reign supreme, you mean just like the cavemen?

 

[HA25]

Riiight..... Just like TWA, Pan Am, Western, Piedmont, unfortunately the list goes on... Most will survive because they will do what is required. Others will fail, SWA may fail, but to say the LCC model is flawed, well, we got thirty plus years and counting...

Ironic you spelled it "rain supreme" as in fall from the sky...

Legacies Reign supreme, you mean just like the cavemen?

Southwest will be the only one I'd bet on NOT to fail..

Rain Reign.. you know what I meant.. I can spell a word wrong once in a while.

 

[scoreboard]

Southwest will be the only one I'd bet on NOT to fail..

Rain Reign.. you know what I meant.. I can spell a word wrong once in a while.

No prob bro, I'm not the spelling police, just pointing out an irony

 

[lowecur]

Originally Posted by lowecur/ironcityblue

There is no such thing as collective will, there is only the bifurcation between the junior and senior ranks where a collective pecking order is created for the benefit of you know who. Are you talking about a handful of CEO's, analysts, speculators and pundits who wax on and off about the trials and tribulations of the greedy labor cost unit? Actually I was talking about Senior Wences.

Lets hear you play devil's advocate and expound upon what Jetblue mgt should have done and when they should have done it? Be specific on pay increases (percentage), COLA (at least partial COLA) for 320 pilots and 60-65% Captain pay for FO's work rules Better reserve rules for starters and a few other minor things. We all know Rome wasn't built in a day., and benefits. AirTran has a 10.5% B fund and a 15% discount (I believe) stock purchase plan. I think that's HIGHLY attainable right now and wouldn't "choke the golden goose" Let's keep it simple and figure it's going to cost Jetblue an average of $10,000 per pilot in 2007 for pay, benefits, and lost productivity with a change in work rules. That's $16 to 20M just for 2007. Then tell us all in your inimitable wisdom how Jetblue can still maintain a competitive edge, Great product, reasonable fares, expanding and improving consumer reach (miles program, maybe some intl alliances, connecting the dots and adding a few kew markets and a first class, the lack of which is by far our biggest burden, not pilot pay) not fracture other employee groups We deserve to be compensated significantly better than our fellow employees who come to the job off the street with no required education and a 3 week training course (or less). Anyone who can't handel that fact can high tail it back to the USSR where they belong. Yes you do, but unfortunately the other employees are not going to sit by without wanting their increased share of the pie. Hence, other unions will begin to appear on the property, and guess what????...the $16 to $20M turns into $40-$50M. and garner 10-15% profit margins? I'm in favor of the highest profit margin possible. But I'm under no illusion that you have to make 10-15% to be viable. What's Southwest's long term profit margin been? Me thinks their average net is around 11% over the last 30 yrs, but they have had some bumps lately. If JetBlue makes 5-10% even if your assumption is true that better pilot compensation that still keeps pilot CASM among the lowest in the nation will have a large impact on the profit margin of a well run company is true (which it isn't, and you know that) it would still be a very profitable company, especially on scale for a company its size now.

imp: ​

You people seem to forget that SWA has a ton of cash and Jetblue is in hock up to it's arz. I couldn't think of a worse time to start this little adversarial duet, but I don't think like most MECs that have an obsessive compulsive mindset of self destruction and instability. It will be interesting to see how this little drama plays out.

imp:​

 

[skykid]

Fix what? I like what I see, I have great work rules, benefits, pay, if you don't, you fix it.

I will be a part of improving compensation at my company just like I did this last time. Most would say we lead the industry now in compensation (I work for a non-passenger carrying company based in the midsouth), I say there is room for improvement.

You haven't looked around lately have you, pay for every profession is stagnant or retracting, deal with it brother.

What we need to deal with is pilots who will fly as airbus Captains for First Officer wages. If you are at a so called legacy and took a 30% paycut to live to fight another day, okay, you probably have the same goal. I'm concerned about the people willing to fly shiny new jets as Captains for First Officer or Flight Engineer wages. Don't do it.

 

[HA25]

I'm concerned about the people willing to fly shiny new jets as Captains for First Officer or Flight Engineer wages. Don't do it.

Skybus out of Columbus OH is starting up a A320 operation that will pay CP's $65/hr to start.. That's less than a Muni Bus driver in NYC.

XtraAir pays 737 CP's $73/hr..

MaxJet pays 767-300ER CPs $93,000/yr

it's already begun.. B6 was just the horn that sounded the charge.

 

[Dave's kid]

I'm usually not one to wish ill on others, but I can tell you that if you think you're going to retire after a long career with no ups and downs from Jet Blue, you're living in a world of denial. Time will tell.. I'm done with this tread.

He said he was done, when is he going to leave?

 

[HA25]

He said he was done, when is he going to leave?

When he dang well feels like it.. "kid"

I love when people have no argument but to argue.

 

[Dave's kid]

I think you're wrong about ALPA and angry at something. Maybe your dad didn't tell you he loved you enough, who knows?

I know that ALPA, or any other union, will not gain a foothold at JetBlue any time soon. The pilots on this site praising the benefits of ALPA at JetBlue, don't work at JetBlue, so a discussion on this board about an organization drive at JetBlue is pointless. So why argue about it here? I come to this board for entertainment, I argue where my argument will really matter.

So I am just pointing out that you said three pages ago you were "done with this tread", and I would like to point out to the other people reading this thread that when you say something, you must not really mean what you say.

 

[Fins Up]

I had to chuckle seeing V7's posts after being done with the thread. If you're done with it, don't even read it. You'll be too tempted to make a liar out of yourself. Is it a big deal? No. Just noticeable.

 

[clickclickboom]

Skybus out of Columbus OH is starting up a A320 operation that will pay CP's $65/hr to start.. That's less than a Muni Bus driver in NYC.

XtraAir pays 737 CP's $73/hr..

MaxJet pays 767-300ER CPs $93,000/yr

it's already begun.. B6 was just the horn that sounded the charge.

Uh actually the legacy waste and excess was in action long before jetblue came around.. It was a couple of boeing jets flying 450 mph into the towers that exacerbated the situation leading to thousands of legacy pilots on the street needing employment. Companies like max jet, eos, and xtra literally had thousands of Ready, Willing, and Able pilots ready to go. Mgmt knew it and so did the pilots..

So how again is this JB's fault with A320 narrowbody capt's making anywhere from $130 to $180k per year?

Gemini Yr 1 Capt 630,500lbs MGTOW $83 per hr
Skybus Startup 169,000lbs A320 $65 hr
Jb A320 Capt $110 hr
FDX Wide Capt $185
Ups $165

 

[HA25]

Being that most JB Captains are at the 5-7 years mark... explain to me how they're making anything more than 130K/yr based on what is public record?

If a 6 year JB CP is making $180K and a FO's at 60% of that.. I'll back off, and even apologize to all of you for saying you're bringing down wages. But everything I've read tells me your figures are 50K/yr off..

Lets not get into work rules, on and off the clock.. that' a whole different animal.

http://airlinepilotcentral.com/airlines/major-national-lcc/jetblue.html

 

[clickclickboom]

Being that most JB Captains are at the 5-7 years mark... explain to me how they're making anything more than 130K/yr based on what is public record?

If a 6 year JB CP is making $180K and a FO's at 60% of that.. I'll back off, and even apologize to all of you for saying you're bringing down wages. But everything I've read tells me your figures are 50K/yr off..

Lets not get into work rules, on and off the clock.. that' a whole different animal.

http://airlinepilotcentral.com/airlines/major-national-lcc/jetblue.html

Not interested in a new argument with you here on flight info find someone else..

Your avatar shows a Gemini Md11 Yr 1 capt on that bird is $83 so whats all this about bringing down the profession?

 

[Bavarian Chef]

Being that most JB Captains are at the 5-7 years mark... explain to me how they're making anything more than 130K/yr based on what is public record?

If a 6 year JB CP is making $180K and a FO's at 60% of that.. I'll back off, and even apologize to all of you for saying you're bringing down wages. But everything I've read tells me your figures are 50K/yr off..

Lets not get into work rules, on and off the clock.. that' a whole different animal.

http://airlinepilotcentral.com/airlines/major-national-lcc/jetblue.html

I just flew with a cap'n that made about 175k last year. Sold PTO, flew a ton though.

 

[HA25]

Not interested in a new argument with you here on flight info find someone else..

Your avatar shows a Gemini Md11 Yr 1 capt on that bird is $83 so whats all this about bringing down the profession?

I'm new at Gemini, and I think hey have a lot of upside potential and are fast on their way to recovery.

Before I was hired, and a while back, it didn't used to be that bad.. but there are bottom dwellers in the ACMI world making less, and non-union work rules as well. Add to that the economic downturn that lead to GAC's Ch11, and the concessionary contract is what it is.. In the end, the mediators that would have looked at our wages against many of the new ACMI's starting today would have told our ALPA that we had to accept the crap wages, or make our company non-competative.

Once again, all thanks to the fact that other pilots are willing to work for less..

Gemini has to compete with those companies, or go out of business.

But thanks for helping me make my point.. Southwest is the Gemini/Atlas and JetBlue, Virgin America, and SkyBus are the Cargo360, Centurion, and Focus Air ...

Just change the names.. the story remains the same.

 

[Falconjet]

Uh actually the legacy waste and excess was in action long before jetblue came around.. It was a couple of boeing jets flying 450 mph into the towers that exacerbated the situation leading to thousands of legacy pilots on the street needing employment. Companies like max jet, eos, and xtra literally had thousands of Ready, Willing, and Able pilots ready to go. Mgmt knew it and so did the pilots..

So how again is this JB's fault with A320 narrowbody capt's making anywhere from $130 to $180k per year?

Gemini Yr 1 Capt 630,500lbs MGTOW $83 per hr
Skybus Startup 169,000lbs A320 $65 hr
Jb A320 Capt $110 hr
FDX Wide Capt $185
Ups $165

Not to pick nits, but FedEx widebody Capt pay for year 2 is 206 per hour.
Narrowbody Capt pay is 175 per hour at year 2.

FJ

 

[HA25]

Not to pick nits, but FedEx widebody Capt pay for year 2 is 206 per hour.
Narrowbody Capt pay is 175 per hour at year 2.

FJ

Plus Fedex is to Gemini what Delta is to ASA.. The equipment may be similar, but the company (Fedex) has a market cap equal to most, if not all the Airlines flying today combined.. it's not an "Airline"... but it has an airline operating with in it.

Comparing WN and B6 is more of an apples to apples.. and there we see a 50% pay difference or more..

 

[sandman2122]

At FedEx you don't upgrade to Widebody Captain in ONE year clickclickboom.........we don't hire into the left seat regardless what's published in the contract, they may have years ago in the Falcon, but not now.........that's the $$ figure you quoted.

I believe the youngest 727 Captains are @ the 5 year point = $177 this year going up to $182 at DOS +1 year.

I also believe the youngest widebody Captains are @ the 9-10 year point = $211 this year going up to $217 at DOS +1 year.

There's mulitple varibles which include hire date, domestic/international ops, extra flying and domicile location just to name a few........your milage may vary.

 

[FNG_that's me]

The answer to all this 'race to the bottom', fingerpointing and self-justification is unity. The best path towards unity is nationwide representation. You're either on the team, or your against the team. I'm not completely discounting in-house as a decent option, but very few do anything for the profession as a whole, or even help themselves out much either. You may think that it does, but not as much as it seems.