Jetblue: Lateral Move For Regional Captains

[oldxfr8dog]

...I can't resist. There are issues alright. They are giving you a message that they are saving their blue darts for someone better than you hehehehe.

Maybe, maybe not. I have a "Blue Dart" that I can't give away.

 

[Scrapdog]

...I can't resist. There are issues alright. They are giving you a message that they are saving their blue darts for someone better than you hehehehe.

LOL - possibly so...however, I think both of them said more or less "dude, you don't want to come here now" (w/o quoting them directly). Pretty sad when your senior cadre of pilots have that outlook.

BL - JB 5-6 years ago was great - the allure of the quick upgrade was the gravy. Today - not even close.

 

[Spectre]

Spetre:
I'm guessing that the folks hiring on now will easily see 6th yr cpt. at DAL. 6th yr captain pay on the M88 is $131/hr. We aren't hiring for attirition, but for growth. New a/c coming for the forseeable future. Also, was told by the CP's office they are upping the hiring to 75/month.
It will most likely be like it was back 10 yrs ago where 2 yr captains at DAL were part of the norm.
JB is slowing its growth plan.
How long for a current new hire (hired today) to be upgraded to 320 Capt?
I'm just curious..........

737

Glad to hear things are picking up at DAL. However, lets look at some other legacies.

6 year Captain pay:

USAir A320 $117/HR
NWA DC9 $118/HR
UAL A320 $125/HR

My pay at JetBlue is $127/hr and $190/hr after 70 hours. At NWA, it's probably going to take over 10 years to upgrade to DC-9 Captain. That's 200+ retirements a year and negative growth as they are not replacing the DC-9s being parked. Plus, it takes over 80 hours to get premium pay.

To add, here's a number most don't know. For a 6 year pilot, JetBlue pays another 10 hours/month in PTO (personal time off). This pay can either be used as days off, sick time that pays premium or cashed out at any pay period. You are allowed up to 200 hours in this bank. It's use or lose, so at some point people here are getting it as additional pay or more time off.

Sure, junior guys always want what senior guys have. That's the same at any airline. However, just this year alone, E190 guys and FO's on the A320 have had a larger percentage pay increase than Captains on the A320.

To add, this year our 401K matching was increased from 3% to 5% and we also have 5% profit sharing whether the company makes money or not. We also have a new long term disability for pilots which I feel is industry leading. You get an average of your last 12 months pay until retirement age.

Finally, some of us have over 20,000 shares of JetBlue stock options while junior guys have around 6,000 shares. Sorry new guys who have zero. One bright spot though, if our stock goes over $20/share, you new guys may be moving up a couple 100 line numbers...

JetBlue isn't perfect, but over the last 7 years, every pilot has had some sort of pay increase even after 9/11, no pay cuts, and no union dues.

 

[Spectre]

LOL - possibly so...however, I think both of them said more or less "dude, you don't want to come here now" (w/o quoting them directly). Pretty sad when your senior cadre of pilots have that outlook.

BL - JB 5-6 years ago was great - the allure of the quick upgrade was the gravy. Today - not even close.

You probably talked to them on 15 February...

Upgrades all come with seniority, so the sooner you get on the property (anywhere) you are better off. It's hard to predict where upgrades will occur faster. Even Southwest is reducing their B737 orders next year so their upgrades are going to take longer.

Our new JFK terminal will be done in October 2008. What JetBlue decides on doing with old terminal 6 is unknown. Who knows, there are even rumors we may make terminal 6 an international terminal and we'd be flying A330s or A350s. We are the largest domestic carrier at JFK with our own strong feed network--it's very possible.

I'll go against the grain and say come on over to JetBlue, it's still a great place to work and play.

 

[Spectre]

Maybe, maybe not. I have a "Blue Dart" that I can't give away.

I'm saving mine for my son...

 

[RogerMOSA]

A couple of folks already hit on this but I think a pilot's success at JB was 100% based on timing. Today is a whole different story. The #1 selling point at JB was the upgrade time - that is non-existent today.

Scrap - You, my friend, are 100% correct!! They "honeymoon" at JB is over and has been for some time.

Spectre - Answer us one question, please. If you were just coming off AD, where would JB be on your list of airlines to work for?

RM

 

[Truckdriver]

To add, this year our 401K matching was increased from 3% to 5% and we also have 5% profit sharing whether the company makes money or not. We also have a new long term disability for pilots which I feel is industry leading. You get an average of your last 12 months pay until retirement age.

Basically you have a 5% match into a 401K for your retirement. Profit sharing in a bonus plan and was never meant to be included in retirment planning. If you include profit sharing into all the other airline retirment equations, JetBlue is still far behind in retirement.

 

[Hair-on-Fire]

Basically you have a 5% match into a 401K for your retirement. Profit sharing in a bonus plan and was never meant to be included in retirment planning. If you include profit sharing into all the other airline retirment equations, JetBlue is still far behind in retirement.

Regardless of what you "think" should be included, we're still getting a minimum 10% company contribution to the 401K if we contribute 5%. Plus the chance to get more if profit is more.

Maybe you don't understand the 5% profit sharing contribution is guaranteed? Regardless of company profit.

 

[737 Pylt]

At least A320 Capts at JetBlue on reserve only have to fly out of JFK. DAL pilots on reserve have to cover EWR, LGA, and JFK. How many B-737s and MD-88s is DAL buying the next few years?

Right now, firm orders for:
10 737-700's
9 777 LR's
13 757's between now and early 2008(former TWA aircraft)

Working on additional:
30 MD 90's from China in exchange for 50 seat rj's
2 additional 777's from an Indian airline by the end of this year
787 order?! Mostly replacement of the 767 ER aircraft, but some will be additional aircraft.

All the wide body aircraft are for ultra long haul, which generates lots of vacancies.

How many aircraft does JB have on order?

737

 

[Truckdriver]

Regardless of what you "think" should be included, we're still getting a minimum 10% company contribution to the 401K if we contribute 5%. Plus the chance to get more if profit is more.

Maybe you don't understand the 5% profit sharing contribution is guaranteed? Regardless of company profit.

I completely understand what it is and what it isn't. It isn't a DC plan and it is money that you probably would have gotten anyway. So if you had a DC plan you would get the 10% even if the company made no money. If they did make money you would get the 10% PLUS what you would have gotten from profit sharing. It's profit sharing that they are calling retirement. Profit sharing in a bonus program for helping the company make a profit it isn't retirement. It's no different than them telling you to count 2% of your premium pay as retirement and telling you that you have a 12% retirement plan.

 

[Scrapdog]

Whoa! Slow down. I never said JB wasn't a good airline. Like anything, JB has quite a few good things going for it, and some that certainly need improvement.

However, as far as pay goes - i.e. the "lateral" move for an RJ guy (which is how this thread started in the first place)...well, it's not good. As I've said twice, the allure of JB was early on, i.e. 5, 6 years ago - upgrades were at a blazing speed. If you got on 5 years ago and are now a 320 CA life isn't too shabby. If you're getting on now - compared to the legacies that are hiring (CAL, DAL) and SWA, FDX, UPS - JB doesn't hold a candle. No longer are upgrade times fast at JB and therefore that allure of making comparable money to a 5 year CA @ CAL for example (about 150/hr) are all but gone.

Last time I was in the CAL crew room in EWR I noticed quite a few JB guys in the new classes and I'm sure it's the same at DAL. Sorry, that's a fact.

 

[Truckdriver]

Working on additional:
30 MD 90's from China in exchange for 50 seat rj's
2 additional 777's from an Indian airline by the end of this year
787 order?! Mostly replacement of the 767 ER aircraft, but some will be additional aircraft.

How many aircraft does JB have on order?

737

Also working on a 100 seat option. Sounds like 25-40 airframes and they may be a variation on the 737-700. Something they are calling the 737-700 Lite. Between those, the 700's, and the additional 90's, the domestic fleet could increase by about 70 airframes over the next 5 years. Average of about 15 domestic airframes per year. Add that to the widebody growth and we need lots of pilots.

I think JetBlue was getting about 12 320's and 10 190's per year. I know they just deferred some more 190's and said they would sell 3 320's this year. Probably 8 190's per year and 12 320's per year with sales of 320's each year. I'd guess about a net airframe growth of 15 per year. They have an agreement that allows them to get the options as if they were firm orders if they need them. If the price of fuel drops, they could go up to as many as 8 more 190's and 4 more 320's. On a percentage wide basis, I think JetBlue is still the fastest growing domestic airline unless Skybus has taken that award now.

 

[Hair-on-Fire]

I completely understand what it is and what it isn't. It isn't a DC plan and it is money that you probably would have gotten anyway. So if you had a DC plan you would get the 10% even if the company made no money. If they did make money you would get the 10% PLUS what you would have gotten from profit sharing. It's profit sharing that they are calling retirement. Profit sharing in a bonus program for helping the company make a profit it isn't retirement. It's no different than them telling you to count 2% of your premium pay as retirement and telling you that you have a 12% retirement plan.

You're dealing with semantics. Whether they call it "guaranteed profit sharing", "Getting old money", or "Cash for the old-folks strip club". It doesn't matter. We're getting 10% put in our retirement account

So if you had a DC plan you would get the 10% even if the company made no money.

WE DO GET IT EVEN IF THE COMPANY MAKES NO MONEY!

 

[Bavarian Chef]

I'm thinking the B plan is a better deal though. It's someone else's money going into my pocket, no contribution required. If jb had a real B plan in addition to the 5% match and 5% profit sharing, then that would be something.

 

[Spectre]

Scrap - You, my friend, are 100% correct!! They "honeymoon" at JB is over and has been for some time.

Spectre - Answer us one question, please. If you were just coming off AD, where would JB be on your list of airlines to work for?

RM

Not a hard one to answer if I were just getting out of AD. First, I would consider how the age 65 retirement rule will effect each airline. I don't think going to an airline hoping for retirement attrition is best for upgrade times now at DAL, NWA, UAUA, SWA, or LCC. I would rather look at the airline's growth potential. Next, I would consider where you live in relation to an airline's hub. It's much better to live at base and not commute. Finally, I would look at job security.

1. FedEx
2. UPS
3. SWA
4. Virgin America
5. JetBlue
6. Everyone else

FedEx and UPS are always going to make money. If you don't mind the cargo flying, it's a great job. Then, SWA even with their slower growth and declining fuel hedges has great management and will always find a way to make money. Virgin America would be my next choice as upgrade times are quick, there are stock options which will be lucrative when they go public and damn, look at their website, their product is going to be hard to beat!

So, I'm being honest and I agree there are better gigs out there other than JetBlue. Again, this is for someone who is just starting out.

However, the grass is not always greener my friend. Just ask the SWA pilots who left SWA around 1999-2000 to seek better pay and bennies at the legacies who were later furloughed. If they would have stayed put, they'd be Captains on the B737 by now.

 

[Truckdriver]

You're dealing with semantics. Whether they call it "guaranteed profit sharing", "Getting old money", or "Cash for the old-folks strip club". It doesn't matter. We're getting 10% put in our retirement account



WE DO GET IT EVEN IF THE COMPANY MAKES NO MONEY!

Not going to argue with you. If you like what you have then that is great. In the end it is 10%. However, let's say JetBlue pays 5% profit sharing this year based on how the year ends up. You will get 10% in your 401K. If you had a DC plan you would end up with 15%. That is all I was trying to say. No other airline counts profit sharing as retirement and JetBlue shouldn't either. However, that is just my opinion.

 

[thor2j]

Not a hard one to answer if I were just getting out of AD. First, I would consider how the age 65 retirement rule will effect each airline. I don't think going to an airline hoping for retirement attrition is best for upgrade times now at DAL, NWA, UAUA, SWA, or LCC. I would rather look at the airline's growth potential. Next, I would consider where you live in relation to an airline's hub. It's much better to live at base and not commute. Finally, I would look at job security.

1. FedEx
2. UPS
3. SWA
4. Virgin America
5. JetBlue
6. Everyone else

FedEx and UPS are always going to make money. If you don't mind the cargo flying, it's a great job. Then, SWA even with their slower growth and declining fuel hedges has great management and will always find a way to make money. Virgin America would be my next choice as upgrade times are quick, there are stock options which will be lucrative when they go public and damn, look at their website, their product is going to be hard to beat!

So, I'm being honest and I agree there are better gigs out there other than JetBlue. Again, this is for someone who is just starting out.

However, the grass is not always greener my friend. Just ask the SWA pilots who left SWA around 1999-2000 to seek better pay and bennies at the legacies who were later furloughed. If they would have stayed put, they'd be Captains on the B737 by now.

If you serioulsy believe beyond number 3 you have drank way too much blue juice!

 

[Lear70]

If you serioulsy believe beyond number 3 you have drank way too much blue juice!

Agreed.

Spectre, you're honestly going to put Virgin America at #4 for career potential? Above DAL or CAL?

Not to mention you completely left out ABX which is at the crux of their hiring boom and pays almost as good as UPS or FDX and has excellent job security.

And exactly HOW many new aircraft is JB slated to receive over the next 5 years? With what kind of financial performance over the last few years?

Don't get me wrong, I think JB is stable and a good place to work, my friends who are there love it. They're also Captains. I just don't follow the whole Virgin America thing being #4 and VA and JB being a long-term more viable career than DAL or CAL if you're just NOW getting hired at one of those airlines.

Could be wrong... I've been caught with my pants down with my airline going out of business before, so what do I know.

 

[ootskdog]

I'm saving mine for my son...

Please don't subject your family members to this profession!

 

[nosoupforyou!]

I can't complain.
My first line held off reserve as an airbus FO was 92 hours and 14 days off.

Now, 1.5 years into it I got 17 days off with 86 hours and commutable trips on both ends.

I enjoy working here.