jetBlue, I'm ready for a union

[SpeedBird]

Right on Blue Bayou!

I have taken a self-imposed hiatus from commenting on jetBlue threads on this board primarily because of the incessant howling by OAL pilots about why jetBlue should have a union, but I need to make an exception in this case.

It appears that some pilots here at jetBlue think that having a union will solve all of their problems and make the flying world right again. I'm here to tell you that all that will happen is that you'll exchange one set of problems for another. The problems that unionized pilots are facing are far more serious than what is being debated on this thread (i.e., the increasing cost of health benefits & "sub-par" pay rates) and deals with significant pay cuts, long-term furloughs, loss of DB pension plans, and the loss of employment.

Well let me see......I think I'll take the problems at jetBlue today than bring a traditional union on the property and create an environment of entitlement that is motivated by "what's best for me," all while for putting my employer at increased risk on a financial and competitive basis. As Blue Bayou said so well this airline is not even five years old, one major mistake and this airline could find itself in grave jeopardy of long-term survival. "Listening" on management's part does mean that you get to have everything you want everytime. Management has already proven more than once that they will do the right thing by their employees when its appropriate to do so. For those of you who have children do you not do the same thing? The analogy is not much different here since it appears that some of you feel compelled to act like children when you don't get your way.

I'm afraid it is true that we pilots are our own worst enemy. For all you OAL pilots out there I recommend that you spend less time worrying about jetBlue's pilots and more time fixing your own houses. If at some time the management team at jetBlue pushes the majority of jetBlue pilots to want to organize then we will be more than able to handle it ourselves...God knows there are enough examples out there on how not to run a union in this business.

 

[a320drivr]

I understand that we are lucky to have some form of insurance when millions of people dont have any but I do have to say the new insurance plan blows!!! We have been told the company wont be built on the backs of labor but it sure seems like it is heading that way. I am tired of checking the insider trading sites and seeing all the big wigs cash in their stock for hundreds of thousands of dollars and sometimes millions worth but we cant have a COLA raise or keep our medical benefits the same. I understand that upper mgmt. has to be compensated but not on the backs of the working man. Maybe cuts should be made somewhere else instead of medical. A good example would be the benefit package that was just sent out. I dont need such a flashy packet in all the pretty colors. Just print it in black and white. Also Blue Print cant be all that cheap to publish and print. Just make it an online version and quit sending a hard copy out to every employee with all the fancy colors. Are the EMB pay rates low? Yes, but I can only hope mgmt. will fix that after they operate it for a year. Do we need an in house union? Maybe, maybe not. I dont have the answer. What I would like is some protection so the company cant fire me on a whim. Do you really think D3 is looking out for our interests? He was hired as a "yes" man, has his DAL retirement, and a chunk of stock options.
We all bust our butts to make this company a success and everybody wants it to succeed but some things need to change. Do I have apps out with SWA, Fed Ex, and UPS? Yes I do and it was the result of the new contract and where I see things headed like the medical plan etc.

 

[rajflyboy]

Jumpseater:


You have one of the most sought after jobs in the entire Airline Industry! Sit back relax and be happy you have the job that you do!

Enjoy every minute of it!!!!!

 

[iflynights]

Speedbird,

Wasn't it you telling us that you got hired by Jetblue then split for a 5 year military leave stint? If so, what do you know about a company that you hardly worked for?

 

[jetblue320]

Fatigue is a good way to avoid scrutiny and to avoid taking responsibilty for your words, I suppose.

You told Jumpseater to go get more information before he vents on FlightInfo.com, and you made a disparaging remark about FA's and mechanics. Since then, you have added nothing of substance to the discussion, and no explanation (other than the bogus attempt) for your smear of "team members."

I really expected more. I expected an apology for insulting the FA's and mechanics, and I expected you to tell us why a union is not the answer to Jumpseater's concerns. After all, you're more senior, perhaps older, and certainly wiser than Jumpseater, otherwise you wouldn't have piped up with the "hush up" in the first place, right?

You might ought to have that knee looked at.





.

I seem to remember you jumping in on a lot of threads that you have no stake in, but, it is a free country.

I don't need to, as you say, add anything of substance because quite frankly, I do not know who Jumpseater is or really give a hoot about him, especially from his introductory post. He outwardly appears to be a disgruntled airman because he stated that David made a statement of "not growing the company on the employees backs" and in his opinion, the new health benefits (among other stuff) doesn't meet his expectations, and David has more or less lied to him. ANd because of that, he wants a union formed. Is that the way you read it TonyC, before I continue on in this useless debate with you?

Well let me tell you something, not that I owe YOU anything (especially an apology) or Jumpseater either for that matter. I couldn't care less if he is happy with JB or not but what I did find odd is that he (along with a few others that frequent this forum) cries out "get a union" everytime something that they perceive to be unjust happens. The truth be known, only 250 out of 970 pilots at JB even attended (either in person or conference call-in) the numerous meetings management hosted with regards to the recent happenings with the contract/agreement etc. And most of those 250 were silent at these meetings BTW.

Well, I'll make it short....you want a union, go for it dudes...you know Duane's number, heck he has already contacted a number of JB guys. And when you manage to turn JB into one of those broken down carriers that you escaped or were furloughed from (furloughed being the operative word) maybe you'll be happy then. It don't make a F 'all to me, I'll be fishing and golfing.

C yaaa

 

[SMMustang]

 I'm afraid it is true that we pilots are our own worst enemy. For all you OAL pilots out there I recommend that you spend less time worrying about jetBlue's pilots and more time fixing your own houses.

As a NWA pilot, and a JB stockholder I have every right to worry about JB's pilots. So get your act together either with or without a union, but the infighting is childish.

Look, everyone in the business is taking it in the shorts, LCCs have no immunity. The problem is we are in the wrong business unless you are willing to work for near minimum wage.

With time and more pilots hired, the Koolaid gets dilluted. There is no other way around it.

 

[TonyC]

I seem to remember you jumping in on a lot of threads that you have no stake in, but, it is a free country.

I don't recall reading any FlightInfo prohibitions against commenting on any thread. As far as I can tell, as long as we keep them clean and professional, we can post on anything. If it bothers you for me to be on the same thread as you, that's not my problem. As far as "stake" goes, neither of us has any in FlightInfo.com, so I'd say that's not even a consideration.

I don't need to, as you say, add anything of substance because quite frankly, I do not know who Jumpseater is or really give a hoot about him, especially from his introductory post. He outwardly appears to be a disgruntled airman because he stated that David made a statement of "not growing the company on the employees backs" and in his opinion, the new health benefits (among other stuff) doesn't meet his expectations, and David has more or less lied to him. ANd because of that, he wants a union formed. Is that the way you read it TonyC, before I continue on in this useless debate with you?

If you think this is a debate with me, you're confused. All I'm doing is pointing out your hypocrisy. You did the same thing you chastised Jumpseater for doing (ranting without information) and you managed to discredit your fellow team members in the process. Then, in a feeble attempt to explain yourself, you lie.

What you could have done is offer a counter opinion, an explanation of why you feel the new health care arrangements are good for you and why you feel a union would not be beneficial to the pilot force. Instead, you took the low road.

Hypocritical, dishonest, disingenuous.

Typical.

 

[Dizel8]

Hmm, do I really want to do this?

Anyway, yes is is not desirable to see an increase in health care cost, however, as most know, this is a big problem for a lot of people and companies, that is except the insurance companies. Health care is on the rise and has been for a long time.For a while, one could not open a newspaper without seeing this discussed and it has not abated. The benefits that jetblue offers are quite inclusive and all things considered, I for one cannot say that they are overpriced or that the company is breaking my back, or my bank.

Further, I do not see this company as being built "on the back of the employees". A perfect example of that would be the current scenario at USAirways or UAL. However, with fuel at over $50 a barrel and the inability to pass that cost onto the customer, it is understandable, that the powers that be is turning every penny twice. One could argue, that doing anything else would be foolhardy at best and fiscally irresponsible at worst. Seeing that I still have 20+ years in this racket, hopefully at the same company, I for one am hoping that changes appropiate to the longevity, while keeping the employee interest at heart, is implemented. I have faith, that decisions like the cost of health care, are not taken easily and only after due consideration.

I would have preferred to see a higher rate on the EMB-190 scale. With due time, this may well happen and having seen the company in action over a bit of time, once again, I must put my trust in, that the company will do the right thing. Analyst have called this the "perfect storm" for the airline business and no one seems to be immune on the passenger side, even mighty SWA would have lost money had it not been for some very shrewd hedging . Hopefully, this boat wil eventually find a safe harbour and then the expectations change. If, at that point in time, the company was to turn in record profits, but not adjust compensation, be it salary or profit sharing accordingly, then certainly other avenues must be explored.

It has taken SWA a long time, with an unrivalled streak of profitable quarters to become amongst the top of the heap. One can only hope, that jetblue can attempt to follow in those footsteps and I know that I will do what little I can, to assist the company in that endeavour.

I am not so sure what I think of D3. While I do believe, he is implementing things that perhaps were overdue, I personally think, that he does not quite understand the jetblue values and is perhaps more in tune with the leadership principles of DAL. I must however, cautiously, give him the benefit of the doubt at this juncture.

As for iflynights, I sincerely hope, that your new position gives you great joy and much happiness. I think it is commendable for you, to be proactive and leave a company that you were not content with. Life is simply to short to be unhappy. I did the freight gig for quite a few years and enjoyed it, but for me, flying nights just got to be a hard life, although financially, it may just be the best move. Best of luck with it and let us know how it turns out.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Just got to the bottom of the thread....

Once again... there is no career airline that doesn' have a union... jB trying to be different? well, if jB was that different there would be no union talk... (as it was for the first 4 years)

as far as unions wrecking the industry and the legacy carriers.... perhaps there is some truth to that in a wierd way, but unions do not control management. Management must agree to the terms...that is why it is called an agreement!

Unions do not control terrorists, oil prices, incompentent management, taxes... In addition do not apply typical unionism to pilots. Pilot unions are unique as it is elite.... (compared to common unions)

It has been said that unions make airlines more efficient becuase they cause management to actually apply themselves... a check and balance. We all know we perform better with guidance and direction and other viewpointrs to consider.

Many management teams hate unions becuase they don't feel they should have to `check` with someone to run their own company.... and that really can piss off Presidents and CEOs. I know it does ours...

SWA has got it right. They recognize unions as a wroking group and not an advisary. David and Dave will do well if they flip flop Kerry style if and when a union comes on the property.. accept it once it is here...

And unions afford workers fundamental rights..... And this country was founded on fundamental rights...

 

[Diesel-9sRule]

SWA has got it right. They recognize unions as a wroking group and not an advisary. David and Dave will do well if they flip flop Kerry style if and when a union comes on the property.. accept it once it is here...

QUOTE]

Exceptional post!

Unions in airlines are like nuclear weapons. Once used, they F### everything up.

However...

the "robber barons" of the 80's are still out there. And, unions provide the political clout to ensure that the likes of the Lorenzo's don't come back to haunt us. (Even ALPA admits that they have never won a strike based on economics alone.)

These are lessons that we have seen repeatedly in the past. We would be foolish to believe that they will not come back.

The current B6 management team seems to have things right but we would be foolish to think that in 20 years our current team would be onboard.

I would like to see the pilot group bargin now from a position of strenght, than later in a position of weakness.

Just my 2.5 cents worth. (adjusted for inflation and oil costs.)

 

[2dogs]

Ho Boy!

Just as the dust is settling from the new contract. BOHICA!!!!

2dogs

 

[Breeze]

2dogs....the eternal pessimist.

All this talk about unions has got me spun up. I personally think unions have outlived their usefullness. I like what SWA and AirTran do. If I'm not mistaken, they have a "pilot group"....which has a leader and represents their issues. That's the key...someone leading you and representing "your" interests/issues, not a convoluded group that doesn't always speak for the group. I think the management at these companies listens to what their "pilot group" is saying....because they respect them.

"Kill something everyday, no matter how small or insignificant, just to maintain proficiency."

Cheers.

 

[FDJ2]

2dogs....the eternal pessimist.

All this talk about unions has got me spun up. I personally think unions have outlived their usefullness. I like what SWA and AirTran do.

Both SWA and Airtran have unions, so I guess that means you like unions, but you don't realize it yet.

 

[jetblue320]

Both SWA and Airtran have unions, so I guess that means you like unions, but you don't realize it yet.

Why does everyone on this forum have to be so **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** literal. He didn't say SWA and Airtran don't have unions!!!!! He said that he likes what they do.

Lighten up people....(yea, you too TonyC).

Sorry FDJ, I had to vent it out. Nothing personal

 

[TonyC]

Why does everyone on this forum have to be so **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** literal. He didn't say SWA and Airtran don't have unions!!!!! He said that he likes what they do.

Lighten up people....(yea, you too TonyC).

Sorry FDJ, I had to vent it out. Nothing personal

Yeah, right.


The guy obviuosly is misinformed, and FDJ2 was enlightening him. You should take more time to read before you preach.

Let me help:

Breeze said: "I personally think unions have outlived their usefullness."

Everyone can agree that this is clearly a statement of anti-union sentiment. If Breeze think unions have outlived their usefulness, it is fair to assume he opposes unions. Enter the very next sentences where he approves of the arrangement at SWA and AirTran:

"I like what SWA and AirTran do. If I'm not mistaken, they have a 'pilot group'....which has a leader and represents their issues."

He likes what they have, but he is obviously mistaken. The "pilot group" which has a leader and represents their issues is a union!


Enter FDJ2 who attempts to correct Breeze's misconception. What did he say that merited your so-called venting? And exactly what about being literal upsets you?


Again I say, you should get that knee looked at.

 

[jetblue320]

Yeah, right.


The guy obviuosly is misinformed, and FDJ2 was enlightening him. You should take more time to read before you preach.

Let me help:

Breeze said: "I personally think unions have outlived their usefullness."

Everyone can agree that this is clearly a statement of anti-union sentiment. If Breeze think unions have outlived their usefulness, it is fair to assume he opposes unions. Enter the very next sentences where he approves of the arrangement at SWA and AirTran:

"I like what SWA and AirTran do. If I'm not mistaken, they have a 'pilot group'....which has a leader and represents their issues."

He likes what they have, but he is obviously mistaken. The "pilot group" which has a leader and represents their issues is a union!


Enter FDJ2 who attempts to correct Breeze's misconception. What did he say that merited your so-called venting? And exactly what about being literal upsets you?


Again I say, you should get that knee looked at.

You just don't give up do you? FedEx gettin' to ya? Gets kinda lonely up in your ivory tower?

Shot a near par game today....how's that for a knee jerk reaction!!! Knee is doing just fine...but thanks for asking...didn't know you cared about anything other than unions.

 

[TonyC]

You just don't give up do you? FedEx gettin' to ya? Gets kinda lonely up in your ivory tower?

Shot a near par game today....how's that for a knee jerk reaction!!! Knee is doing just fine...but thanks for asking...didn't know you cared about anything other than unions.

You're doin' a swell job on the "duck and run" move, too.


Maybe I was wrong about the knee malady; perhaps it's a skin issue. Maybe a good dermatoligist could identify the irritation under your skin.

 

[jetblue320]

You're doin' a swell job on the "duck and run" move, too.


Maybe I was wrong about the knee malady; perhaps it's a skin issue. Maybe a good dermatoligist could identify the irritation under your skin.

Naw, it's too late for that. Tan was good in the 70's remember? Now it's called melanoma. Too much golf and island life. Maybe that could help you out, the island life that is! I guess this means we've made up? Seriously, it's all just in good fun like with me and General Lee. If not, sorry to ruffle your feathers.

C yaaa

 

[737 Pylt]

I guess this means we've made up? Seriously, it's all just in good fun like with me and General Lee. If not, sorry to ruffle your feathers.

C yaaa

How about a group hug?!
737

 

[FDJ2]

Sorry FDJ, I had to vent it out. Nothing personal

No problem, it just seemed like the lad didn't realize that both SWA and Airtran have union negotiated collective bargaining agreements. I wonder why that is.

 

[potrack]

so anyways.........is JB getting a union? Maybe you won't have to clean cabins anymore?

 

[jetblue320]

so anyways.........is JB getting a union? Maybe you won't have to clean cabins anymore?

As far as the union, it's anybody's guess. You may find this hard to believe, but we help out cleaning the cabin because we want to, not because we are told to. But, I guess the idea of team spirit and getting the job done early so we ALL can get off sooner never dawned on most folks. There are a few guys who refuse to do it, that's fine too. I would say that they might feel guilty walking away from the rest of the crew while they are working but they don't, because they don't have a conscience anyway.

Keep swatting the beehive with that union at Jetblue question though.

Have a nice day.

 

[Stifler's Mom]

You may find this hard to believe, but we help out cleaning the cabin because we want to, not because we are told to.

I do this too, until I piece together all 4 sections of the USA Today, then it's back to my seat.

 

[jetblue320]

I do this too, until I piece together all 4 sections of the USA Today, then it's back to my seat.

Good one!

 

[klhoard]

Free Newspapers!!

I do this too, until I piece together all 4 sections of the USA Today, then it's back to my seat.

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You must be a Captain!!!
.
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[stillflyn]

Why is everyone outside of JB pushing for a union at JB. When those of us here feel we need one, we'll vote one in!!

 

[klhoard]

Because when you guys drop your pants and bend over willingly, our bosses will expect the same from us.
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Does "JFK-LGB-JFK in one duty period" ring a bell for anyone??
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[Race Pilot]

Because when you guys drop your pants and bend over willingly, our bosses will expect the same from us.

Does "JFK-LGB-JFK in one duty period" ring a bell for anyone??

The funny thing is I don't think there is anyone here, except for a very few malcontents that are still hanging on to the idea that they would be flying a 777 at their previous airline 10 years from now, that feel like they are "bending over". Most of us feel that we are "chipping in" and working hard to get the job done and make the company money which we will all share in terms of profit sharing at the end of the year. Seems folks at many airlines just feel like punching the time clock and getting a pay check. We are JetBlue still feel like we are part of something special and want to keep it that way.

The only thing I can figure from your last line is the initiative that is being talked about in trying to get a waiver to the 8 hr domestic rule so that we can fly one leg across country, then turn around and fly one leg back. As I understand only to be done during normal waking hours. I think this is a great idea for productivity. Get in, get your work done, go home.

 

[Breeze]

320....tell me you don't see a difference between ALPA and what SWA and AirTran have in their professional associations.


Cheers.

 

[iflynights]

KL,

I for one would favor an in-house union at Jetblue. There are many more that agree with me. It is difficult to use the "u" word here due to the five year contract. It is obvious that is the reason there is a five year contract. I think most of the first 300-400 are against organizing, but most of the bottom half would consider it. FO pay is low but people weren't too concerned due to quick upgrades. A-320 upgrades for new hires are probably around the four year mark. They are running about two years or so now. New hires will have to decide between A320 FO pay or 190 Captain pay. Either way it is pretty low.

A large chunk of compensation at Jetblue is profit sharing. Today, they said that Q4 will be very close to break even, maybe a loss for the quarter. Profits this entire year have been down due to low yields and very high fuel prices. This means profit sharing which was about 17% last year will be much lower. Also people in the stock purchase plan that didn't sell are most likely losing money.

Another carrot is the stock options. The top 400 or so have an extremely low strike price. The rest are under water or very close to it. Most of us looked at this as a possible big pay off, now alot of us think they will be worthless.

I saw the writing on the wall at JBLU and am waiting for a class date with another carrier. I see lots of problems in the near future. Their RASM is extremely low and if they can't keep costs down, they will lose money. This means low pay to me.

BTW, I am in favor of the transcon turns. I think about about how long I am on duty, not how many hours I fly. I find multiple leg days and long sits more tiring. If you can log 11 hours a day, you would work only 7 days a week. Fedex is a different story, you guys work nights and get paid mostly soft time. I don't see as a good deal for you, but a great deal for airlines. Hell, ALPA is about to change their mind about age 60 (I think this totally sucks). Why limit flight times to 8 hours when you can be on duty for 14 or so?