jetBlue Captain Pay?

[dgs]

Kid C busted

trainerjet -- Good catch. My first tipoff was when Kid C claimed to be senior to one of our most senior Captains. I slept since I answered his earlier emails, so I had forgotten them. With Integrity as one of our core values, and a personal history that demanded the highest levels of honesty, I sometimes forget that some people are not quite so truthful.

FlyDeltaJets "In the meantime, however, I'd much rather higher salaries, better workrules, bigger pensions, better benefits. While smiles, handshakes, leather jackets and pizza parties are nice, they don't feed the family or pay the mortgage. "

Delta -- Where do you set the limit? More, better, bigger is how the industry got into this mess. If you are paid an adequate wage and live within your means, you're not worried about paying the mortgage, feeding the family, or besting your neighbor. jetBlue pays me a very comfortable wage with excellent work rules and a brilliant retirement package. It pays for all that and plenty more. I expect it will continue to grow WITH the company, not AHEAD of the profits. Meanwhile, the smiles, handshakes, leather jackets, and pizza parties (among other things) sure make it a great place to work!

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

Well, dgs,

All I can say is that all those things I mentioned are worse today (on a real dollar basis) than they have been in many decades. While you might think what we have today is"enough," I realize that our slice of the pie is progressively shrinking. I don't know if there is anything we can do about, but we should at least be able to mention it without starting insult and flame wars (not you).

If enough people stay satisfied with "adequate," eventually managements redefine our expectations of what "adequate" really is. I think we are seeing evidence of that today.

P.S.
I am happy that you enjoy your job. However, I hope that you realize that B6 pilots do not corner the market on that. I enjoyed the heck out of my Delta job (when I had it!). Most of the guys I flew with did too.

Good luck and fly safe

 

[Blue Dude]

Re: A raise will happen

Blue Dude said:
"I am content with my own pay and that's good enough for me. If it never increased except for inflation, I would remain content."


Now before all you guys slam away at all JetBlue pilots let me assure you that Blue Dude is most definitely speaking only for himself and not for anyone else.

OK, Kid, I wouldn't dream of speaking for you, especially since it appears you're not even a JetBlue pilot.

But my real point was that my pay is adequate for me and my family regardless of what someone else happens to be making. It's only when you start playing the "mine is bigger than yours" game that discontent sets in. I prefer to think of my pay in absolute terms, not relative terms. And I certainly don't need someone else telling me that I ought to feel bad about my paycheck for his sake. If I'm happy about it, I for darn sure won't be guilt-tripped into not being happy because he's unhappy with my pay. It is quite literally none of his business. I refuse to kowtow to pilots from other airlines, who would happily crush us by the way, in service to some notion of fighting for the common good. That is pure socialism.

Regarding Bluie Dude's comment: If our pay was permanently locked where it is now, leaving us pilots out in the cold and not sharing in the growth and profitibility of the company that we work so hard for.....well, I only see bad things coming out of that. Serious morale problems, turnover when the industry improves and other airlines return to hiring mode, unionization, an adverserial relationship between management and labor, etc. etc.

No doubt this would happen. But it's entirely possible that other airlines' pay will approach ours, not vice versa, and you have to prepared for the possibility. If you were at JetBlue, would you still be up in arms if the "industry standard" came down to meet us, and JetBlue was therefore taking care of you in relation to the industry as a whole? Would you then be content since everyone else is "suffering" equally? If so, then maybe you need to reexamine your priorities. Someone else's loss isn't your gain. And if your pay is adequate, then it is adequate in an absolute sense, no matter if everyone else is paid three times as much. Human nature being what is it, though, such strict isolationist thinking doesn't work well in the aggregate.

(Note to FlyDelta: Your theory is that if everyone dropped pay to match JetBlue, then JetBlue would have to cut pay further to maintain an advantage. But unless you can come up with an example of this ever happening at an LCC (with all the systemic CASM advantages that implies), or a reason why JetBlue management would break faith with their people so badly given an already huge CASM advantage, I have to reject that theory. So we'll have to agree to disagree here. I'll stay tuned, though, and I look forward to your comments.)

Don't get me wrong, I'd like a pay raise, very much. But I am getting along very well without it, and I can't rely on such a thing happening. And again I utterly reject the necessity based solely on the fact that other airlines' pilots don't like it. If JetBlue pilots' grumbling gets to the point that a pay raise is necessary to keep the peace and retain the workforce, I say that we give JetBlue management every opportunity to raise pay as needed and run their company their way without holding a gun to their heads. They've done a fine job so far, and until they stumble, if ever, I say we should let them keep doing it. Unions are a hidden club, and useful as such as an ultimate resort. But I fear that brandishing that club in the open may have unforeseen consequences and wreck much of what makes the company unique and worthwhile. No airline has ever escaped the curse (or necessary evil, if you prefer) of unionization, but this management is giving it a go. Give them the chance.

BTW, don't buy into it when some Blue-Aid drinkers tell you non-JetBlue pilots we don't need a raise cause we make a fortune in profit sharing. We do get some pretty healthy profit sharing, that's true. But what they are not telling you is all that profit sharing (every penny of it) is locked up until retirement age. So for many of us that's 20-30 years before we can even touch a dime of that profit sharing. Doesn't exactly help pay the mortgage or put the kids through college now does it? Don't get me wrong - retirement is important and I'll happily take my profit sharing every year. But to suggest we don't need a raise cause of that profit sharing is just plain wrong. I can't pay my bills with money I have no access to. Just my 2 cents....

Sure, that's correct, profit sharing won't pay the bills, and it doesn't mean that we have some kind of hidden pay raise. It will however accrue tax deferred for a long, long time in an account in your name. (Are you listening, Intruder?) You can't spend the money until you retire, but you can't lose it either, no matter what happens to the company. I'll bet some US Airways pilots wish their pensions were protected as well (they really got hosed). There are distinct advantages to doing things this way if you take the long view.

BTW, you might be able to take a loan against the amount for a good reason, such as your kids' college tuition or a home down payment, maybe even without an IRS penalty. It's worth checking into.

 

[Blue Dude]

If enough people stay satisfied with "adequate," eventually managements redefine our expectations of what "adequate" really is. I think we are seeing evidence of that today.

That is an excellent point, FDJ. I don't really have a good answer to that.

 

[Kid Charlemagne]

dgs - this is your only warning!!

dgs said:
"Kid -- Don't you realize we have the means and technology to discover the truth about your identity if so provoked?"


Hey dgs,

Listen up buddy. I'll only tell you this once. This forum is structured to be a free exchange of ideas based on a certain amount of courtesy to each other and on the basis of anonimity. I don't give out personal info. about myself as I don't feel that it is appropriate to do so. I have mentioned my status as a JetBlue captain so those who read my posts know where I am coming from.

However, I read your statement above as a threat. And I personally don't care for it one bit. I didn't even mention you in my post - just expressed my own view and responded to a previous post by Blue Dude. So how was that "provoking" you? Just because I disagree with you and your views you post that kind of garbage? What kind of pond scum are you? And you crow about JetBlue having a high standard of integrity? Then why don't you exhibit a little yourself!!

Consider this your only warning. If you post anything else even remotely similar to that comment - I will immediately contact the moderator and have you permanently barred from the forum for making threats to other members.

To everyone else - please don't let dgs make you think all JetBluer's are on his level. We do actually have a lot of quality people working here with a high level of professionalism and maturity. But unfortunately, because of people like dgs, I can understand why we are starting to get the reputation we are...I believe a post above referred to it cult-like? Just remember a company is not represented by one person......

 

[Kid Charlemagne]

Response to Blue Dude

Blue Dude,

First of all I want to contrast your response to that of dgs. While he resorted to making threats cause he can't abide someone having a different opinion (he must be God or something since he knows for a fact he's right)....you took several of my points and responded to them logically. You are to be commended for that and I also happen to agree with some of what you said, and disagree with other things. And that's the whole point point of this forum isn't it? Hopefully people like dgs won't be allowed to become the Gestapo and shut down the free exchange of ideas on this board. Now that I got that off my chest:

Blue Dude said:
"If you were at JetBlue, would you still be up in arms if the "industry standard" came down to meet us, and JetBlue was therefore taking care of you in relation to the industry as a whole? Would you then be content since everyone else is "suffering" equally? If so, then maybe you need to reexamine your priorities. Someone else's loss isn't your gain. And if your pay is adequate, then it is adequate in an absolute sense, no matter if everyone else is paid three times as much."


Blue Dude,
I disagree with that. In any line of work how are you to determine if you are being compensated "adequately"? I say the only way you can determine that is by examining the pay your peers get. If everyone is to be paid only what is "adequate" then what you have is the socialism you seem to rail against so much. Remember the Communist ideal - "From each according to his talents, to each according to his needs"? So while 50k a year might be perfectly adequate as a living wage (in some cities anyway) for a tradesman, would you expect a brain surgeon in that same geographic area to make the same pay? After all, if the surgeon only needs "adequate" compensation, why can't the hospital save money by just paying him the 50k? And if you wouldn't agree to that, why wouldn't you? Because you know that brain surgeon would be GROSSLY UNDERPAID BASED ON HIS PEER GROUP AVERAGE INCOME, even though he might be able to survive just fine on the "adequate" pay of 50k a year. That's the same principle I'm talking about. But I agree with you that management has done right by us so far, and I have some patience to wait and see if they do the right thing and bring our hourly pay closer to industry standard (I use SWA as the benchmark) in the short term. After all, we're making record profits right? Time to share the wealth, that's all I'm saying.....and let's all work together to be successful.

Blue Dude also said:
"Sure, that's correct, profit sharing won't pay the bills, and it doesn't mean that we have some kind of hidden pay raise. It will however accrue tax deferred for a long, long time in an account in your name. (Are you listening, Intruder?) You can't spend the money until you retire, but you can't lose it either, no matter what happens to the company"


Blue Dude,
I agree with you on this my brotha. I wasn't knocking our profit sharing, it is a very nice supplement to our retirement package. I just wanted to clear something up - some guys were posting that JetBlue captains don't need a raise cause we get lots of profit sharing. I thought that might lead some to conclude that our profit sharing is SPENDABLE, just like hourly pay you get in the form of a paycheck is spendable. So I wanted to get rid of that misconception and point out that we can't get at that money until retirement age, which for many of us is decades away. And as far as saying you can't lose it....well, yes you can. Depends on how your investments do....the past three years have made painfully obvious the fact that stocks go down as well as up.


And finally, Blue Dude said:
"OK, Kid, I wouldn't dream of speaking for you, especially since it appears you're not even a JetBlue pilot."


Blue Dude,
WRONG

 

[Kid Charlemagne]

dgs edits his post

dgs,

I see you edited your post and removed the threat you made. Probably a wise move my friend. Consider it a lesson learned???

If you want to post an apology I'll be happy to read it. Your call...

 

[dgs]

Kid -- You missed my point. It was not meant as a threat. Sorry you took it that way. Anonymity does not give you the right to misrepresent yourself and/or perspectives of jetBlue employees. Like Mr. Concorde who tried to convince everybody that he flew the Concorde. If you are truly what you say you are, then how do you answer the disconnects between you asking about jetBlue's hiring in February and claiming to be a Captain here in April? Which time were your misrepresenting yourself?

 

[Kid Charlemagne]

This is what happens when you assume

dgs said:
"Kid -- You missed my point. It was not meant as a threat. Sorry you took it that way."

dgs,
OK, if that's really how you meant it.....I'll consider myself satisfied and drop this issue. Apology accepted.


dgs said:
"If you are truly what you say you are, then how do you answer the disconnects between you asking about jetBlue's hiring in February and claiming to be a Captain here in April? Which time were your misrepresenting yourself?"

dgs,
You are assuming to much. Because I was discussing JetBlue's hiring and asking questions about our hiring process, you automatically assumed I was looking for a job with JBLU. WRONG. I never said that - you just chose to read it into my remarks or questions. So I never misrepresented myself. Hope that clears this up for ya.....

 

[Blue Dude]

Re: Response to Blue Dude

In any line of work how are you to determine if you are being compensated "adequately"? I say the only way you can determine that is by examining the pay your peers get. If everyone is to be paid only what is "adequate" then what you have is the socialism you seem to rail against so much. Remember the Communist ideal - "From each according to his talents, to each according to his needs"?

No, no, no, I said nothing about being paid according to my "need", whatever that is. I meant that the pay is adequate for me, to maintain the lifestyle I want. It is "adequate" in the sense that it is enough for what I want in life, and therefore that's good enough. Comparing my pay to others' to determine whether I ought to be satisfied with the lifestyle my pay provides for me is groupthink, penis envy, and worse. Put another way: my satisfaction is determined by my desired and obtained lifestyle (provided that my pay will cover the cost, and it currently does), not the size of my paycheck, and certainly not the size of someone else's. But I'm not an ascetic, and I'm not saying that I'll never want more. (I was perhaps too strong in saying that today's pay will always be "adequate". I was trying to make a point and went too far.) Later on, my concept of "adequate" may be higher than today's. That may be the source of future discontent, not envy.

If your hypothetical brain surgeon maintains a lifestyle that he's happy with on 50K, then anything over that is pure gravy, for him. It should not make him unhappy that someone else makes more. If he really wanted to make more, then he can compete for a job that pays more, but he isn't morally obligated to do so, in terms of "upholding the profession" or some such nonsense. Granted, I wouldn't be satisfied with 50K, or more specifically the lifestyle afforded by that amount, but if someone else is, who am I to tell him he's unhappy, or should be unhappy, and doesn't know it?

But I agree with you that management has done right by us so far, and I have some patience to wait and see if they do the right thing and bring our hourly pay closer to industry standard (I use SWA as the benchmark) in the short term. After all, we're making record profits right? Time to share the wealth, that's all I'm saying...

Hah! Disagree strongly. Why should they? Didn't you sign a contract? Didn't you already get a unilateral raise? And aren't you already getting your pro-rata share of the profits? Why is your labor suddenly worth more than before on an hourly basis, just because the business plan works, or because someone else gets more (while his airline crumbles around him)?

Sure, I'd like to be paid more, and I too figure that if SWA can afford to pay that much more than we are and still remain profitable, then probably JetBlue can too. I'd happily take it, and count it as gravy. And I'd probably expand my notion of "adequate" to accommodate it. But I'm not entitled to it, on the basis of "spreading the wealth". (That's the kind of thinking that got United's pilots in such trouble). If the company decides to pay us better, as a means of limiting discontent, retaining pilots and keeping faith, then that's a great reason to do so. But we have no right to demand it.

On the other hand, if the current pay scale continues on in the future without change for a long period of time, with continued "record profits", then I would start feeling taken advantage of. I'm not sure at what point this would happen, but it's not imminent. We're too well taken care of in other ways. JetBlue management would have to burn through a lot of goodwill capital with me before reaching that point.

I wasn't knocking our profit sharing, it is a very nice supplement to our retirement package. I just wanted to clear something up - some guys were posting that JetBlue captains don't need a raise cause we get lots of profit sharing. I thought that might lead some to conclude that our profit sharing is SPENDABLE, just like hourly pay you get in the form of a paycheck is spendable.

Agreed. I had a problem with this interpretation too. But this notion that we're really paid better (or don't "need" a raise) because of profit sharing is often a defensive reaction: "See, we're not paid so bad, we've got profit sharing!" We are not paid on the same level as major airline, but you know, that's not cause for a defensive reaction.

And as far as saying you can't lose it....well, yes you can. Depends on how your investments do....the past three years have made painfully obvious the fact that stocks go down as well as up.

I worded it badly. I should have said that it can't be taken from you. And over time, stocks don't lose money. If you aren't brave enough to retest that theory, then put it in a money market fund, where it certainly won't lose money, but won't gain much either. That remains where it should: as an individual choice.

And finally, Blue Dude said:
"OK, Kid, I wouldn't dream of speaking for you, especially since it appears you're not even a JetBlue pilot."


Blue Dude,
WRONG

Then I'm wrong. Sorry about that. But you've got to admit, they made a pretty good case, using your own words.

Added in edit: I just read your reply to dgs. Makes sense to me. Sorry again.