jetBlue and the 50 seat RJ

[8vATE]

No problem. I get a little aggrevated when people make light of my part-time status (I fill in here and there but I got a type out of it and good benefits). It's actually a great gig and a fantastic airplane. I have a number of opportunities that I am looking at and I am hoping that Fedex and UPS give me a call at some point soon - like everyone else.

Still, I am not a big fan of the E190 rates at JetBlue and I bring those up because I honestly believe that the bar has been permanently lowered as a result.

yea....

And I get aggravated when a military puke with 4,000 hours thinks he knows the solution for the plight of the airline industry..

And points a finger at a pilot group with 70 airplanes and NO EMB-190s that have even turned a wheel yet..

Mr. B-1... why don't you go fly for someone in mother russia...?

this is the United States...

its called capitalism.. free markets.... supply and demand ....

the world has changed...

yes... it would be great if we all made more money..

but why don't you look up how "profitable" this industry has been since inception...? Why don't you study the industry before spouting off?

"but I get aggravated when people make light of my part time status"..

blah.. blah.. blah..

your airplane rocks man... the global kicks ass...

GREAT... gives you wood like the F15 and B1..

now wake up..

quit crying..

Freight is where the money is...

Go for it...
I've got that shirt too....

 

[8vATE]

DDD,

Unions do have their problems and downside. However your examples are issues that resulted from bankruptcy or near there (TWA). The unions have very little power at that point. At least UAL/Delta/USAir had it good for awhile due in no small part to their unions.

Yes...

The gravy rolled in there for years...
Esp. DAL and UAL... not so much for USAirways with its rockier road..

Unions can be great "insurance"... esp. medical, legal and safety resources...

But the confrontational relationship with management is a real problem..
This rests squarely on the shoulders of a company's management for sure...

But when things get rough.... there are so many personalities and so much politics in a union.... they are completely ineffective with dealing with reality...

except for SWAPA... which seems to have done fairly well... but it took them 30 years....

 

[seefive]

DDD,
I agree that there are times when unions don't do all that they can. However, when the tough times started, they are impossibly limited by what they could control. Bankruptcy court imposes there own will. Sometimes it is better to take a big cut through negotiation than an even bigger one through an imposed court contract.
For example, Delta took their lumps recently but under the best terms they could hope for. Not perfect.......but not as bad as it could be too. On another note with Delta, their union brought pilots back much earlier from furlough through the enforcement of their contract. This was and is huge for those individuals. Many will get 3 months back pay as the arbitrator ruled the company's actions were outside of the contract as well. (By the way, I don't fly for Delta). Try getting that without the union.
Bottom line for me is, in today's environment, most corporate leadership is out to line their own pockets first and then they worry about profits and shareholder wealth (which benefits themselves). Labor is one area they have to deal with along the way. The unions aren't always effective but the whole is much more powerful than the individual. There are politics, some corruption, and under-the-table motivations within the union too. These are frustrating. Personal agendas are something we live with in every aspect of our lives. Unfortunately.

 

[seefive]

Why are some people so envious of the military guy ("puke") with fewer hours that gets hired over an 8000 hour civilian. Both are undoubtedly qualified for an airline job.

The military provided the best flight training in the world with a broad base of experience to include low level flying, dirt airstrip landings, air refueling, international operations into remote locations, tactical certifications, etc. This flying experience was fun and invaluable as a pilot. The military trains daily with local flights getting pilots multiple landings, simulated engine out approaches in the aircraft, and various actual instrument approaches. The airlines recognize this experience and training and in many cases target these individuals for hire. All have four year degrees and most have master's degree. All that really shows is a desire to achieve but that is worth something and the airlines recognize that too.

To think that these same military guys don't know much about the airline industry or the economic environment is naive as well.

The last time i checked, the military was an all voluntary force and everyone had/has the opportunity to seek out that pilot slot in the Air Force, Marines, Navy, CG, etc. It's an amazing experience.

 

[MoGambo]

Diamond Twins,

"I might as well have take two percent from my pay and given it to a monkey."


you did, his name was Du-wayne !

 

[DIAMONDDD]

DDD,
Bankruptcy court imposes there own will. Sometimes it is better to take a big cut through negotiation than an even bigger one through an imposed court contract.

Just because the union gave once, doesn't mean the company still won't come back for more, and again, and again, and again....all the while threatening BK. Death by a thousand cuts. And there is no guarantee that the company won't go into BK anyway.

Look, I realize that unions are a necessity at places like UAL, USA, DAL, AA, etc...
Those management teams can be real dirt bags and would line their own pockets with labor's money in a heartbeat.
They may even be a necessity at B6 eventually. But right now, with this management team, it doesn't appear to be an absolute must. If it was, there would be union voted in. But for those that want to sit on the outside and point at B6 without a union as the reason for everyone's ailment is just B.S. I am merely pointing out to those individuals that even when I had a union, it didn't do squat for me. I never had to use the medical, legal benefits (good stuff by the way) and the work rules were no better than the ones I am experiencing at B6. PLUS, they just waved goodbye when I needed them most.

Two sets of footprints in the sand when the going was good....one during the most difficult times. "Where were you union?" Did you carry me, is that why there is only one set?"

"Nah, we were in D.C. lobbying for LAHSO and getting our pictures taken."

 

[On Your Six]

yea....

And I get aggravated when a military puke with 4,000 hours thinks he knows the solution for the plight of the airline industry..

And points a finger at a pilot group with 70 airplanes and NO EMB-190s that have even turned a wheel yet..

Mr. B-1... why don't you go fly for someone in mother russia...?

this is the United States...

its called capitalism.. free markets.... supply and demand ....

the world has changed...

yes... it would be great if we all made more money..

but why don't you look up how "profitable" this industry has been since inception...? Why don't you study the industry before spouting off?

"but I get aggravated when people make light of my part time status"..

blah.. blah.. blah..

your airplane rocks man... the global kicks ass...

GREAT... gives you wood like the F15 and B1..

now wake up..

quit crying..

Freight is where the money is...

Go for it...
I've got that shirt too....

Ha Ha Ha. Are you guys reading this? Hilarious! By the way, your E190 rates SUCK and you know it. Have a great day.

 

[FDJ2]

But right now, with this management team, it doesn't appear to be an absolute must. If it was, there would be union voted in.

I hope you don't mind me highlighting the qualifiers in your statement.

Just a thought, but "right now" and "this management team" aren't forever, and in all likelihood these snap shot circumstances will change and when they do, and they will, it is far better to have contract in hand at the time then to be starting from scratch playing catch up. Unions weren't created in a vacuum and while you may think that your management team is the second coming, you may also want to consider that they may not be. Again, that's just something to consider.

 

[seefive]

DDD,
Certainly understand your experience with your union. I see some things that i don't like too. But, they back every pilot the company is trying to screw and have gotten their jobs back for them following unwarranted termination (have seen this many, many times). They negiotiated a contract, good or bad, and do everything to enforce it. Their big picture is in line with mine although the detailed priorities are not always. That being said, i do think they are very necessary.

I hope management treats you well at JB. My guess is that it is only a matter of time. SWA pilots obviously needed one. So did their FAs. No offense intended, just my educated guess. Time will tell. Best wishes either way.

 

[B-atch]

Is this board Controlled by the JB jockeys?.....It seems that everytime someone questions JB wisdom, there is a rash of attacks and pitifull self justification coming from the group.....Wy don't you folks(JB people) listen to advise from others...Wether its good advise or not, you can learn from all that is being said.....You know there are SMARTER people out there than you'r selves.....

Capt. JB 50 seat pay $17/hr
F/O JB 50 seat pay... Can of tuna and saltine crackers....If you want a can opener....3 hrs. overtime required

 

[wndshr]

this thread and all JB threads are so amusing!


last time i was at work i did an informal survey....you know...just like the ones before the presidential elections this year!

it absolutely amazed me what the findings of this survey were.

here was the question: "mr. capt/fo/fa.....do you care what the rest of the industry thinks about you or Jetblue?"

Answers:

a. i could give a rat's ar$e
b. abolutely NOT
c. not really
d. kind of
e. yes

Gallup Poll says..............................................

99% for answer A
1% for answer B

error +/- 0%

sorry guys...nobody at jetblue cares what you think! LOL

 

[8vATE]

Why are some people so envious of the military guy ("puke") with fewer hours that gets hired over an 8000 hour civilian. Both are undoubtedly qualified for an airline job.

The military provided the best flight training in the world with a broad base of experience to include low level flying, dirt airstrip landings, air refueling, international operations into remote locations, tactical certifications, etc. This flying experience was fun and invaluable as a pilot.

You answered your own question...

The fighter guys are clueless to 121 operations..

Op Specs, de-icing, CATIII... the list goes on and on..

MOST of the guys have good attitudes...
But some really don't think their fecal matter stinks...

Guess its just like anything else...
A few bad apples give the rest a bad name..

I'll never forget the Marine F-18 guy who didn't understand why DC-9s didn't have night vision...

It's called a landing light... On or Off..

we do have some good military guys here though...

 

[8vATE]

Ha Ha Ha. Are you guys reading this? Hilarious! By the way, your E190 rates SUCK and you know it. Have a great day.

Hey dude..

Your beeper is beeping..


time to go get ice for the Global...

 

[8vATE]

Is this board Controlled by the JB jockeys?.....Wether its good advise or not, you can learn from all that is being said.....You know there are SMARTER people out there than you'r selves.....

Yup...
You're right..


As evidenced by their company's business plans and relationship to management...

They are SOOOO smart..

Don't forget Beeetch...

Most of us at JB are on our 3rd, 4th or 5th airline....
Most have been ALPA...

We will watch how things turn out..

Ask us how things are in 3-5 years...

 

[B-atch]

Best of LUCK my friend.......

 

[B-atch]

Anti Unionism

Remember guys and girls at JB.... You can thank ALPA, APA, and others for the current work-rules and pay that you currently enjoy.. Wether you want to admit it or not, it was these unions who negotiated the industry standard wages and bennies of which you'r current Management used as templates.... Do you actually think that without the effort of unions your present conditions would be as they are...NOT...Pick up a history book and see for you'r selves...

Oh forgot....FAR crew flight time, duty time, and rest requirements...
Already we can see what JB is trying to do to the FAR's.....

 

[rptrain]

sorry guys...nobody at jetblue cares what you think! LOL

the rally cry of today's intellectually inop: i don't care what you think so you must not have a valid point. aka: the ostrich maneuver.

 

[BN2A]

I also heard that we are getting Colgan to fly SAAB's for us and that L.A.B. Flying Service from Haines, AK will be feeding us with Cherokee Sixes.


Cheers!

GP

*********************
Hey hey now...

Lay off Layton Bennett

Check your pms

 

[Purpledog]

The fighter guys are clueless to 121 operations..

Yeah it was soooooo hard to figure out. Let me see, takeoff, autopilot on, land, sleep. Almost as hard as landing on the boat at night, bad wx, on fumes, no diverts, after an 8 hour mission and 10k of ordnance dropped while people were shootin back. No comparison, but that's been beat up a thousand times. It seemed like the F18 driver might have been on to something since Alaska, FDX and others are contemplating putting HUDs in aircraft.

It seems like the pax industry is in a race to the bottom and their is a definite leader running you down the wrong trail. I just thank god I'm on the freight side and hopefully it won't infest our work rules. I really don't want to unload my plane after flying all night or have to fly 8+ without an RFO or have to work til I'm 70 or have to augment my retirement as a Walmart greeter or.....etc.

 

[8vATE]

Yeah it was soooooo hard to figure out. Let me see, takeoff, autopilot on, land, sleep. Almost as hard as landing on the boat at night, bad wx, on fumes, no diverts, after an 8 hour mission and 10k of ordnance dropped while people were shootin back. No comparison, but that's been beat up a thousand times.

I said we had some great military guys...


But you can't argue with the fact that a military guy with 2200 hours and NO 121 experience who shows up in ground school thinking he's GREAT is going to create a lot of heartburn with the commuter/cargo guy who has 8000 hours of JFK/EWR/LGA experience...

Believe me... it happens...

 

[8vATE]

Remember guys and girls at JB.... You can thank ALPA, APA, and others for the current work-rules and pay that you currently enjoy.. Wether you want to admit it or not, it was these unions who negotiated the industry standard wages and bennies of which you'r current Management used as templates.

yea...

captain woerth...
captain babbitt...(captain of what?)


woerth did a fast flip flop on the FFDO issue..

I still can't believe the money those guys pull down in Herndon...
and I love the BOD meetings at the most expensive hotels in Florida..

yes... they did a LOT of good..

but how about taking some credit for the state of the industry?
they've really been proactive and pro-viability of each company..

NOT..

let's squeeze that last golden egg out of the goose without killing it!!

 

[B-atch]

I'm sure Alpa had a LOT to do with 911, war in Iraq, SARS, price of oil, increase in security costs, etc,etc.etc. yadi-dah!!

 

[FDJ2]

I said we had some great military guys...


But you can't argue with the fact that a military guy with 2200 hours and NO 121 experience who shows up in ground school thinking he's GREAT is going to create a lot of heartburn with the commuter/cargo guy who has 8000 hours of JFK/EWR/LGA experience...

Believe me... it happens...

Jeez this argument goes back and forth. The military trained pilot has the advantage that he has a proven track record with successfully completing a high intensity training syllabus and he is a known commodity. As an example, by the time a student naval aviator has accumulated 200 hours he's not putzing around in a C150 or a more advanced aircraft such as a C 172(RG), but rather he has already flown jet aircraft on and off aircraft carriers. That's training! On the other hand, the civilian pilot can claim to have operated Part 121 after acquiring his commercial ticket, which is no real big deal, but he can log significant flight time in and out of high density airports. Good for him.

So who is the best candidate for the dream job? Well the answer is obvious, the military trained pilot with 121 experience.

 

[B-atch]

Admit the TRUTH....If the Major airlines were back in the black, JB would be struggling to hire/ retain people...Give me a break... You can sit back and pat you'r selves on the back for making a smart career move... The reality is " you guys are at JB because "NO ONE ELSE WOULD HIRE YOU"!!!!

How many folks bailed out of JB to go on with UA,AA,DA during the good times....A bunch!!

 

[FlyChicaga]

Military, civilian, who cares. As long as we don't end up in the weeds, it doesn't matter what the background is of the guy or gal in the other seat. What does matter is that he or she isn't a prick, they shower every morning, and don't embarass me. Can we get along for four days and have a good time doing this job?

You all go back and forth with this argument every week. The true colors of the guy or gal you're flying with come out when the day is done and your chillin' with a cold one at the bar. Then it doesn't really matter what their background is, does it?

 

[Dizel8]

"How many folks bailed out of JB to go on with UA,AA,DA during the good times....A bunch!!"

You got a source for this?

 

[Dizel8]

"You can thank ALPA, APA, and others for the current work-rules and pay that you currently enjoy.. Wether you want to admit it or not, it was these unions who negotiated the industry standard wages and bennies"

Hmmm, if I am not mistaken, I think you work for Polar and I think polar is union, so how come you get paid so little to jerk gear on the whale?

Heck, for a 74 pilot, you get paid squat! I mean, come on, $133 an hour for a 10th year Whale captain.

Maybe you should work on that, as opposed to bitching so darn much about jetwho!

 

[Purpledog]

But you can't argue with the fact that a military guy with 2200 hours and NO 121 experience who shows up in ground school thinking he's GREAT is going to create a lot of heartburn with the commuter/cargo guy

Anyone who shows up other than humble to have a new job is a fool. I have seen it the other way around as well just as often as the arrogant mil guy. Should the commuter/cargo guy whose watched the autopilot fly for 4000 hours be arrogant? Unfortunately our profession breeds arrogance despite background.

 

[B-atch]

Diezel8 wrote

Hmmm, if I am not mistaken, I think you work for Polar and I think polar is union, so how come you get paid so little to jerk gear on the whale?

Industry leading contracts are not negotiated in one swift stroke..It takes years of evolution and bargaining to come up with leading wages and bennies.....Polar is a relatively new Co. only 11 years old. The pilots and engineers here work under rules and wages negotiated during our first contract... If I may add, our quality of life contractual policy will guarantee a minimum of 14 days off per month.. Any days worked on days off are paid as a premium.

You are correct, our book rates are pitifull for the type of work that we do. But if you understood our contract and the duty rigs it contains, you would see that it has greater earning potential than many other's out there. We have 2nd year F/O's who have actualy broken 6 figures... And no, they have not Whored themselves....Next time that you care to make a presumption about another carrier's contract, please take the time to educate you'r self....

By the way... We are Hiring

 

[Dizel8]

B-atch says:"The reality is " you guys are at JB because "NO ONE ELSE WOULD HIRE YOU"!!!!"

So who turned you down so you ended up at Polar, man, you must be one sorry SOB, if all you can do is fly freight for a third rate outfit?

B-atch says: "Next time that you care to make a presumption about another carrier's contract, please take the time to educate you'r self...."

Sure, I'll do that, just after you buy a clue and educate yourself about jetwho!

"Polar is a relatively new Co. only 11 years old."

Heck, jetwho wasn't even a speckle in Neelemans brain eleven years ago. Just turned five, yet we match the mighty 74 drivers at Polar, sorry B-atch, you need to get with the program, you are dragging down the bar.

B-atch says:"It's the only logical explanation for such a CROCK#$#@^%$$#^$!!!"

B-atch says:"A new standard in AIRLINE CULTURE.. Whats next, INDENTURED SERVANTS??".

Now me, I think Polar is a great company, even put my app in there in my "freight days" and I have no doubt that working there can be a lot of fun, on the other hand, it is not the highest paid gig in the world, yet, I have never gone on record, like you have done and no doubt will continue to do,pointing out the "horrible conditions", that it's"simply unacceptable" and how you would rather be a garbage man, than work at jetblue.

See the problem here, B-atch!

As for hiring, no thanks, did my bit in the eight for a supplemental and while it was interesting, I think at jetblue offers a much superior quality of life.