JetBlue and fuel stops

[IB6 UB9]

He's talking about the VOR 13L - not the straight-in VOR 31!

The "Canarsie" VOR 13L can get pretty exciting when the winds are gusty... at night... after a long duty day.... 'nuff said.

Really?

 

[banger]

....... That has got to throw the schedule out the window, but most of your flights westbound don't have connections, so no biggie I guess. I bet America West also had some fuel diverts with their A320s from NYC to PHX nonstop. I am not trying to slam JB, rather looking at the range of that A320 when full. The A319 has the range though (Private Air flies one from Dusseldorf to ORD nonstop).


Bye Bye--General Lee

Those headwinds are tough but I just looked it up. Completion factor yesterday (SAT18FEB) was 100% with 86% load factor. Crews timing out all over. Checked with CrewServices, 52 pilots volunteered to fly on days off.

 

[aa73]

Really?

Huh?...

 

[Mugs]

Huh?...

My thoughts exactly.

 

[Mugs]

Seeing how the weather has to be 800-2 1/4 mile for the approach, it is dang near VMC. Hardly low.

If you read the report on that accident, I believe there was some jocular activity going on. Hardly something you do when your exhausted.

A350

Of course if you had ever seen the airport, you would know that it is outside of town in the middle of nowhere. The visual references at night are minimal at best. Afterall, they did fly a perfectly good airplane into the trees well short of the runway. Also, the mins on that approach are 3/4 of a mile ---and there is no ceiling requirment. Flyinboxes is right on regarding the non-essential conversation.

It is disturbing to me to see you guys poo-poo this fatigue issue and take a "nothing to it" attitude. Funny that General Lee, myself, aa73 and many others look at this very conservatively and therefore differently than you guys. Cultural differences perhaps? Changing the rules isn't worth the extra time off to me. Can you imagine guys getting up at 3 in the morning to catch a 6 o'clock commuter flight to JFK facing a transcon turn? Plenty will be doing it, and they will be basket cases on the leg back to JFK.

 

[3BCat]

Wrong. Thats exactly what you do when your exhausted. You lose your edge and your wits. Fatigue studies are compared to the equivalent use of alcohol all the time. ALso, why do you think the weather has to be 800 /2-1/4. Because its a non-precision and ALL non-precisions are considered difficult compared to the ILS, thus the name "non-precision".

I don't agree with your last statement. Non-precision approaches are not inherently more difficult, just less precise in placing you into position from which to land. Therefore, higher minima exist to allow you time to maneuver for landing.

I will agree that the VOR 13L is more challenging than many other non-precision approaches, and fatigue can lead to fatal errors.

 

[Dizel8]

It is disturbing to me to see you guys poo-poo this fatigue issue and take a "nothing to it" attitude.

I guess you will be all over the guys, who commute in on the same day, to fly across the Atlantic that evening. Yep hauled plenty of those into JFK in the late afternoon.

The current FAR's allow some horrendous pairings, maybe it is time they get changed!

The VOR 13L is easy, can think of much harder approaches ie Guatemala city etc.

 

[Mugs]

I guess you will be all over the guys, who commute in on the same day, to fly across the Atlantic that evening. Yep hauled plenty of those into JFK in the late afternoon.

The current FAR's allow some horrendous pairings, maybe it is time they get changed!

The VOR 13L is easy, can think of much harder approaches ie Guatemala city etc.

I agree with you. You hear some guys doing ridiculous things. However, one leg across the Atlantic from JFK is typically significantly less flight time compared to a transcon turn. On longer flights, augmentation comes into play. Does Airtran still have that 12 hour contractual duty time limit? Coupled with no more than 8 flight hours between rest periods, it is a beautiful thing if they do. On top of that, they manage to stay profitable overall. Seems to me like they have a formula over there that works.

 

[JBPA]

Checked with CrewServices, 52 pilots volunteered to fly on days off.

That's great...maybe we'll get another pen or snow globe. Or maybe even a small balsa windmill or weathervane commemorating the "Great Blowjob of 2006". Listen, I'm all for helping out the team when I can, and I'm sure it was a win-win situation for most of these folks. However, I think that we, as a pilot group, are continually shooting ourselves in the proverbial feet regarding having any say in improving our pay/benefits/ workrules/yaddayaddayadda in the future.

On another note, I'm against the transcon turns and I don't want to work beyond 60.

Oh yeah, I could do the VOR 13L/R in my sleep (which I likely would be doing if I had just done a transcon turn after commuting in and tech-stopping in DEN due to high winds).

 

[-9Capt]

Does Airtran still have that 12 hour contractual duty time limit? .

Yup....

 

[Blue Dude]

I don't think anyone is trying to minimize the effect of fatigue on transcon turns. If there's one good argument against it, that's it. But dragging out the dreaded VOR 13L into JFK as an argument against is pretty weak. That approach is practically a visual, into a flat terrain airport with beaucoup visual aids. I'd be far more scared of a straight-in ILS to minimums.

I don't think we'll ever see transcon turns. It's just possible to get away with it under the best of circumstances, but I think it would be too unreliable for any kind of consistency. 11 to 12 hrs of flight time? I don't think so.

What I do see happening are pairings that are something like FL to JFK/BOS, to the west coast. Overnight and return the same way. That's maybe 16 to 20 hours of flying in two days, four legs, right side of the clock. And there are lots of possible combinations that would work. Max of say, 10 hrs of flying per day, two legs a day, no redeyes. This is close to what you could do under JAR rules. It also has the attraction that if something goes wrong with the schedule (bad wx, mx, etc.), you're in or near a base in the middle of the day instead of at the outstation with no alternatives. This seems far more tolerant of normal disruptions than transcon turns.

 

[SUNDOWN]

It is important to note that a good percentage of the pilots at B6 due not support trans con turns. I hate to say it but we have a hard time building decent pairings now. If our management was that concerned about our Sleep Habits we wouldn't have most the pairings we do ( double red-eyes, midnight carib, etc). Dont get me wrong, I really like this place, I just think our management likes to tell us what is good for us rather than ask.

 

[elag777]

It is important to note that a good percentage of the pilots at B6 due not support trans con turns. I hate to say it but we have a hard time building decent pairings now. If our management was that concerned about our Sleep Habits we wouldn't have most the pairings we do ( double red-eyes, midnight carib, etc). Dont get me wrong, I really like this place, I just think our management likes to tell us what is good for us rather than ask.

Are you required to bid these pairings, or do you have a choice?

 

[elag777]

That's great...maybe we'll get another pen or snow globe. Or maybe even a small balsa windmill or weathervane commemorating the "Great Blowjob of 2006". Listen, I'm all for helping out the team when I can, and I'm sure it was a win-win situation for most of these folks. However, I think that we, as a pilot group, are continually shooting ourselves in the proverbial feet regarding having any say in improving our pay/benefits/ workrules/yaddayaddayadda in the future.

On another note, I'm against the transcon turns and I don't want to work beyond 60.

Oh yeah, I could do the VOR 13L/R in my sleep (which I likely would be doing if I had just done a transcon turn after commuting in and tech-stopping in DEN due to high winds).

Carry one of those snappy ALPA credit cards?

 

[SUNDOWN]

Are you required to bid these pairings, or do you have a choice?

I guess that is all based on your seniority.