JetBlue and fuel stops

[IB6 UB9]

He's talking about the VOR 13L - not the straight-in VOR 31!

The "Canarsie" VOR 13L can get pretty exciting when the winds are gusty... at night... after a long duty day.... 'nuff said.

Really?

 

[banger]

....... That has got to throw the schedule out the window, but most of your flights westbound don't have connections, so no biggie I guess. I bet America West also had some fuel diverts with their A320s from NYC to PHX nonstop. I am not trying to slam JB, rather looking at the range of that A320 when full. The A319 has the range though (Private Air flies one from Dusseldorf to ORD nonstop).


Bye Bye--General Lee

Those headwinds are tough but I just looked it up. Completion factor yesterday (SAT18FEB) was 100% with 86% load factor. Crews timing out all over. Checked with CrewServices, 52 pilots volunteered to fly on days off.

 

[aa73]

Really?

Huh?...

 

[Mugs]

Huh?...

My thoughts exactly.

 

[Mugs]

Seeing how the weather has to be 800-2 1/4 mile for the approach, it is dang near VMC. Hardly low.

If you read the report on that accident, I believe there was some jocular activity going on. Hardly something you do when your exhausted.

A350

Of course if you had ever seen the airport, you would know that it is outside of town in the middle of nowhere. The visual references at night are minimal at best. Afterall, they did fly a perfectly good airplane into the trees well short of the runway. Also, the mins on that approach are 3/4 of a mile ---and there is no ceiling requirment. Flyinboxes is right on regarding the non-essential conversation.

It is disturbing to me to see you guys poo-poo this fatigue issue and take a "nothing to it" attitude. Funny that General Lee, myself, aa73 and many others look at this very conservatively and therefore differently than you guys. Cultural differences perhaps? Changing the rules isn't worth the extra time off to me. Can you imagine guys getting up at 3 in the morning to catch a 6 o'clock commuter flight to JFK facing a transcon turn? Plenty will be doing it, and they will be basket cases on the leg back to JFK.

 

[3BCat]

Wrong. Thats exactly what you do when your exhausted. You lose your edge and your wits. Fatigue studies are compared to the equivalent use of alcohol all the time. ALso, why do you think the weather has to be 800 /2-1/4. Because its a non-precision and ALL non-precisions are considered difficult compared to the ILS, thus the name "non-precision".

I don't agree with your last statement. Non-precision approaches are not inherently more difficult, just less precise in placing you into position from which to land. Therefore, higher minima exist to allow you time to maneuver for landing.

I will agree that the VOR 13L is more challenging than many other non-precision approaches, and fatigue can lead to fatal errors.

 

[Dizel8]

It is disturbing to me to see you guys poo-poo this fatigue issue and take a "nothing to it" attitude.

I guess you will be all over the guys, who commute in on the same day, to fly across the Atlantic that evening. Yep hauled plenty of those into JFK in the late afternoon.

The current FAR's allow some horrendous pairings, maybe it is time they get changed!

The VOR 13L is easy, can think of much harder approaches ie Guatemala city etc.

 

[Mugs]

I guess you will be all over the guys, who commute in on the same day, to fly across the Atlantic that evening. Yep hauled plenty of those into JFK in the late afternoon.

The current FAR's allow some horrendous pairings, maybe it is time they get changed!

The VOR 13L is easy, can think of much harder approaches ie Guatemala city etc.

I agree with you. You hear some guys doing ridiculous things. However, one leg across the Atlantic from JFK is typically significantly less flight time compared to a transcon turn. On longer flights, augmentation comes into play. Does Airtran still have that 12 hour contractual duty time limit? Coupled with no more than 8 flight hours between rest periods, it is a beautiful thing if they do. On top of that, they manage to stay profitable overall. Seems to me like they have a formula over there that works.

 

[JBPA]

Checked with CrewServices, 52 pilots volunteered to fly on days off.

That's great...maybe we'll get another pen or snow globe. Or maybe even a small balsa windmill or weathervane commemorating the "Great Blowjob of 2006". Listen, I'm all for helping out the team when I can, and I'm sure it was a win-win situation for most of these folks. However, I think that we, as a pilot group, are continually shooting ourselves in the proverbial feet regarding having any say in improving our pay/benefits/ workrules/yaddayaddayadda in the future.

On another note, I'm against the transcon turns and I don't want to work beyond 60.

Oh yeah, I could do the VOR 13L/R in my sleep (which I likely would be doing if I had just done a transcon turn after commuting in and tech-stopping in DEN due to high winds).

 

[-9Capt]

Does Airtran still have that 12 hour contractual duty time limit? .

Yup....

 

[Blue Dude]

I don't think anyone is trying to minimize the effect of fatigue on transcon turns. If there's one good argument against it, that's it. But dragging out the dreaded VOR 13L into JFK as an argument against is pretty weak. That approach is practically a visual, into a flat terrain airport with beaucoup visual aids. I'd be far more scared of a straight-in ILS to minimums.

I don't think we'll ever see transcon turns. It's just possible to get away with it under the best of circumstances, but I think it would be too unreliable for any kind of consistency. 11 to 12 hrs of flight time? I don't think so.

What I do see happening are pairings that are something like FL to JFK/BOS, to the west coast. Overnight and return the same way. That's maybe 16 to 20 hours of flying in two days, four legs, right side of the clock. And there are lots of possible combinations that would work. Max of say, 10 hrs of flying per day, two legs a day, no redeyes. This is close to what you could do under JAR rules. It also has the attraction that if something goes wrong with the schedule (bad wx, mx, etc.), you're in or near a base in the middle of the day instead of at the outstation with no alternatives. This seems far more tolerant of normal disruptions than transcon turns.

 

[SUNDOWN]

It is important to note that a good percentage of the pilots at B6 due not support trans con turns. I hate to say it but we have a hard time building decent pairings now. If our management was that concerned about our Sleep Habits we wouldn't have most the pairings we do ( double red-eyes, midnight carib, etc). Dont get me wrong, I really like this place, I just think our management likes to tell us what is good for us rather than ask.

 

[elag777]

It is important to note that a good percentage of the pilots at B6 due not support trans con turns. I hate to say it but we have a hard time building decent pairings now. If our management was that concerned about our Sleep Habits we wouldn't have most the pairings we do ( double red-eyes, midnight carib, etc). Dont get me wrong, I really like this place, I just think our management likes to tell us what is good for us rather than ask.

Are you required to bid these pairings, or do you have a choice?

 

[elag777]

That's great...maybe we'll get another pen or snow globe. Or maybe even a small balsa windmill or weathervane commemorating the "Great Blowjob of 2006". Listen, I'm all for helping out the team when I can, and I'm sure it was a win-win situation for most of these folks. However, I think that we, as a pilot group, are continually shooting ourselves in the proverbial feet regarding having any say in improving our pay/benefits/ workrules/yaddayaddayadda in the future.

On another note, I'm against the transcon turns and I don't want to work beyond 60.

Oh yeah, I could do the VOR 13L/R in my sleep (which I likely would be doing if I had just done a transcon turn after commuting in and tech-stopping in DEN due to high winds).

Carry one of those snappy ALPA credit cards?

 

[SUNDOWN]

Are you required to bid these pairings, or do you have a choice?

I guess that is all based on your seniority.

 

[General Lee]

Really?

I wish I were Chuck Yeager like IB6 UB9!!! He could probably do a handflown VOR 13L app blindfolded, in a huge crosswind, behind a BA 744, after a transcon turn that flew over 10 hours, including a fuel stop in DEN and T-storms avoidance near CLE!


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[oldxfr8dog]

I don't think anyone is trying to minimize the effect of fatigue on transcon turns. If there's one good argument against it, that's it. But dragging out the dreaded VOR 13L into JFK as an argument against is pretty weak. That approach is practically a visual, into a flat terrain airport with beaucoup visual aids. I'd be far more scared of a straight-in ILS to minimums.

I don't think we'll ever see transcon turns. It's just possible to get away with it under the best of circumstances, but I think it would be too unreliable for any kind of consistency. 11 to 12 hrs of flight time? I don't think so.

What I do see happening are pairings that are something like FL to JFK/BOS, to the west coast. Overnight and return the same way. That's maybe 16 to 20 hours of flying in two days, four legs, right side of the clock. And there are lots of possible combinations that would work. Max of say, 10 hrs of flying per day, two legs a day, no redeyes. This is close to what you could do under JAR rules. It also has the attraction that if something goes wrong with the schedule (bad wx, mx, etc.), you're in or near a base in the middle of the day instead of at the outstation with no alternatives. This seems far more tolerant of normal disruptions than transcon turns.

The original premise was it was better to do a T-Con turn and end up in your domicile time-zone, thereby maintaining circadian rhythms and getting better rest. Doing an L-shaped pairing such as FL to JFK/BOS and then west coast would increase flight time with no better rest than if you just went one leg east to west.
The intent wasn't longer flight days, it was improved rest.

 

[SUNDOWN]

I think if utilized properly the Sleep AMP project could benefit everyone in the industry. I don't believe trans con turns are the answer. I do believe as someone pointed out earlier that a FLL-JFK-LGB be a good start if the tools were in place to prevent excessive duty days, all night flying, etc. Remember we must consider all pilots at our company, from the new reserve to the senior captain. I do not think the head honchos are the problem or have any bad intent. I believe the problem would arise from scheduling durring one of our IROPS. If they were given the lattitude to start building pairings on the fly with a new set of rules, this thing would go south in a hurry.

 

[JB Bus Drvr]

It's really funny how many folks jump on the get JB bandwagon. Generally, the people who comment in the absurd are either afraid of what we are doing or have no idea what they're talking about.

And GL, what happened to you. You used to make sense in articulate, reasonable posts. Whether I agreed or disagreed, you sounded like you put some intelligent thought into your writings. Now you've relegated yourself to the levels of UC, Siegel, and 32. WTF over.

 

[oldxfr8dog]

I think if utilized properly the Sleep AMP project could benefit everyone in the industry. I don't believe trans con turns are the answer. I do believe as someone pointed out earlier that a FLL-JFK-LGB be a good start if the tools were in place to prevent excessive duty days, all night flying, etc. Remember we must consider all pilots at our company, from the new reserve to the senior captain. I do not think the head honchos are the problem or have any bad intent. I believe the problem would arise from scheduling durring one of our IROPS. If they were given the lattitude to start building pairings on the fly with a new set of rules, this thing would go south in a hurry.

I agree that science supports T-Con turns with the appropriate iron-clad rules. Unfortunately, between Crew Services's "creativity" with rules, oops, I mean "Guidelines" and the "combat-mission/profit-sharing" mentality of some of our pilots, things could get ugly fast.
I still don't think FLL-JFK-LGB is a candidate. That would improve that days productivity, but wouldn't improve fatigue management in the least.

 

[Blue Dude]

Betcha dollars to donuts that FLL-JFK-LGB is less fatiguing than JFK-LGB-JFK.

 

[oldxfr8dog]

Betcha dollars to donuts that FLL-JFK-LGB is less fatiguing than JFK-LGB-JFK.

No arguement from me, there!
But the intent isn't to make more productive pairings, with longer flight times, it's to enable better rest by being back in your domicile's time zone when the flight is over.

 

[Blue Dude]

I think I can get better rest three time zones away under these circumstances than going back to my home time zone after 11+ hrs of flying.

And make no mistake - it's all about productivity. There's no way to sell it to the pilot group any other way. That's all it's ever been about.

And I don't have a problem with that. There's nothing magical about 8 hrs of flying. In fact, I don't think there ought to be a hard limit on flight time alone. Total time off the gate isn't that big a factor in fatigue, in and of itself. I'm much more concerned with number of legs flown, total duty period, back side of the clock flying and "resting" during banker's hours. Or any combination of the above. Give me a "L-transcon" 2-day trip worth 18 hrs anyday over the "legal" monstrosities we come up with now. Transcon turns are no fix, unless you promise me good weather and tailwinds both direction.

 

[oldxfr8dog]

I think I can get better rest three time zones away under these circumstances than going back to my home time zone after 11+ hrs of flying.

And make no mistake - it's all about productivity. There's no way to sell it to the pilot group any other way. That's all it's ever been about.

And I don't have a problem with that. There's nothing magical about 8 hrs of flying. In fact, I don't think there ought to be a hard limit on flight time alone. Total time off the gate isn't that big a factor in fatigue, in and of itself. I'm much more concerned with number of legs flown, total duty period, back side of the clock flying and "resting" during banker's hours. Or any combination of the above. Give me a "L-transcon" 2-day trip worth 18 hrs anyday over the "legal" monstrosities we come up with now. Transcon turns are no fix, unless you promise me good weather and tailwinds both direction.

I agree with everything you said. I'm just concerned we would soon have T-Con or L-shape monstosities in ADDITION to the legal ones that we have now.

 

[JBPA]

Some good points. I don't think that the 'L' shaped pairing would be that bad, as long as there's a decent rest period before the return trip (>12 hours). I agree with oldxfr8dog's concerns. The bottom line is we'll take whatever the SC comes up with. Last time I checked, noone from the sked comm/chief pilots off/AMP/etc. asked for my $0.02 when they were considering any of these controversial topics. Unfortunately, the people that come up with some of the dumb pairings we currently have never have/never will fly them. The thought that they will influence the pairings if the AMP results are implemented is disappointing at best.

Perhaps I should 'volunteer' my time to be part of the solution versus part of the problem. Since I don't work for free (for a for-profit org) I guess that aint gonna happen. It's back to the day sleep/night page for me! What did Blue Dude say? It's all about productivity after all, right? Time to go kick the dog/wife again.

 

[General Lee]

It's really funny how many folks jump on the get JB bandwagon. Generally, the people who comment in the absurd are either afraid of what we are doing or have no idea what they're talking about.

And GL, what happened to you. You used to make sense in articulate, reasonable posts. Whether I agreed or disagreed, you sounded like you put some intelligent thought into your writings. Now you've relegated yourself to the levels of UC, Siegel, and 32. WTF over.

Oh come on man, I am just joking with IB6 UB9. I am still against the transcon turns idea. I think it is bad for everyone, and very dangerous on the return leg.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

I think I can get better rest three time zones away under these circumstances than going back to my home time zone after 11+ hrs of flying.

And make no mistake - it's all about productivity. There's no way to sell it to the pilot group any other way. That's all it's ever been about.

And I don't have a problem with that. There's nothing magical about 8 hrs of flying. In fact, I don't think there ought to be a hard limit on flight time alone. Total time off the gate isn't that big a factor in fatigue, in and of itself. I'm much more concerned with number of legs flown, total duty period, back side of the clock flying and "resting" during banker's hours. Or any combination of the above. Give me a "L-transcon" 2-day trip worth 18 hrs anyday over the "legal" monstrosities we come up with now. Transcon turns are no fix, unless you promise me good weather and tailwinds both direction.

Amen brother.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Uppercrust]

It's really funny how many folks jump on the get JB bandwagon. Generally, the people who comment in the absurd are either afraid of what we are doing or have no idea what they're talking about.

And GL, what happened to you. You used to make sense in articulate, reasonable posts. Whether I agreed or disagreed, you sounded like you put some intelligent thought into your writings. Now you've relegated yourself to the levels of UC, Siegel, and 32. WTF over.

I'd rather be him than an angry BlueBird Bus Driver like you!
Face it little guy, you've got problems over there in BlueBird land.

 

[The FODkiller]

UpperFUSS,

You never post anything positive in 98% of your posts, and you obviously have a hidden agenda to piss off the masses. For the life of me I do not know what the moderators see in letting a piece of crap like you continue to post useless, worthless garbage on this forum. What a loser.......

 

[IB6 UB9]

I wish I were Chuck Yeager like IB6 UB9!!! He could probably do a handflown VOR 13L app blindfolded, in a huge crosswind, behind a BA 744, after a transcon turn that flew over 10 hours, including a fuel stop in DEN and T-storms avoidance near CLE!


Bye Bye--General Lee

I can. Anyway, search your feelings Luke...uhh...General. Like I said, this would probably be a good idea (a heavily restricted transcon turn) if your airline was doing it. However, your seething hatred for the LCC's surfaces(because they are a competitor...thus a human nature thing for you) whether you try to mask it or not, any chance you get. Usually you are riding the coattails of someone else's ideas, but at least you are consistent.