JetBlue and ALPA

[hoover84]

Why go with ALPA when we are having trouble getting 50% of our pilots to
vote yes? The in-house option would have far better participation. If a CBA is what we need go with the sure thing. Yes we all know its expensive......SWAPA did okay

 

[Fins Up]

Why go with ALPA when we are having trouble getting 50% of our pilots to
vote yes? The in-house option would have far better participation. If a CBA is what we need go with the sure thing. Yes we all know its expensive......SWAPA did okay

50% interest cards is way too low to ensure a vote victory. That is what is taking so long. After the last debacle, ALPA wants stronger numbers before filing.

SWAPA "did okay" because they had the blessing from management. We do not have that. Even if they suddenly "changed their minds" and said an in-house is okay, I wouldn't believe them. ALPA is the way to go - at least for an initial contract. I get as frustrated waiting as anyone else but we have to do it right and we only really have one more chance with ALPA. If we burn them again, they are DONE with us.

 

[Chronic Jetlag]

Why go with ALPA when we are having trouble getting 50% of our pilots to
vote yes? The in-house option would have far better participation. If a CBA is what we need go with the sure thing. Yes we all know its expensive......SWAPA did okay

As divided as JB pilots are, an in-house union would be worthless because no one will cough up the seed $$$ to get it off the ground. It will not have $$$, expertise, political clout...nothing; game over.

 

[Ski-N-Fly]

Why go with ALPA when we are having trouble getting 50% of our pilots to
vote yes? The in-house option would have far better participation. If a CBA is what we need go with the sure thing. Yes we all know its expensive......SWAPA did okay

To all those who want an In House, The only thing stopping you from starting one is......YOU. It's been tried before and failed. It will cost a lot more $$$ to start an In House than it will to get ALPA on the property. Good luck with that. We just don't have the resources. SWA's management is union friendly, as they welcomed their unionization. JetBlue management hates unions. Your uphill battle is pretty steep.

But imagine this.....having a union run by JetBlue pilots, elected by JetBlue pilots, and held accountable by JetBlue pilots. And at the same time, you would have access to the best aviation attorneys and doctors on the planet. It's called ALPA. Any union that is ALPA sponsored is actually an In House union with access to ALPA national's many resources. ALPA national does not control any of its sponsored unions. Every decision an ALPA sponsored union makes is up to its own pilots. YOU have the final say......not ALPA. Any bad experiences you may have had with an ALPA sponsored union is the fault of YOUR own airline's union.

This is a business decision. When making a business decision, it is far better to use logic instead of emotion. We need a union ASAP. Whether you want ALPA, In House, Teamsters, Mickey Mouse, etc, please just send in your cards so we can actually vote for some type of representation. Can we all agree that we need to be represented? Let's get past that step first. Send in your cards!

 

[jynxyjericho]

To all those who want an In House, The only thing stopping you from starting one is......YOU. It's been tried before and failed. It will cost a lot more $$$ to start an In House than it will to get ALPA on the property. Good luck with that. We just don't have the resources. SWA's management is union friendly, as they welcomed their unionization. JetBlue management hates unions. Your uphill battle is pretty steep.

But imagine this.....having a union run by JetBlue pilots, elected by JetBlue pilots, and held accountable by JetBlue pilots. And at the same time, you would have access to the best aviation attorneys and doctors on the planet. It's called ALPA. Any union that is ALPA sponsored is actually an In House union with access to ALPA national's many resources. ALPA national does not control any of its sponsored unions. Every decision an ALPA sponsored union makes is up to its own pilots. YOU have the final say......not ALPA. Any bad experiences you may have had with an ALPA sponsored union is the fault of YOUR own airline's union.

This is a business decision. When making a business decision, it is far better to use logic instead of emotion. We need a union ASAP. Whether you want ALPA, In House, Teamsters, Mickey Mouse, etc, please just send in your cards so we can actually vote for some type of representation. Can we all agree that we need to be represented? Let's get past that step first. Send in your cards!

Yeah but if everyone at JetBlue now doesn't want ALPA because they remember how bad their "local" ALPA was run at their previous carrier what would they have to look forward to? Not anymore, but we had a run of guys who would blow big bucks on booze and food for their friends because they used the union as a debit card. The circus has mostly left but I still heard a P2P rep telling his buddy on reserve that he could get him free food every day during the concessionary agreement education campaign. If your soon to be elected union rep believes union = free crap, instead of union = hard work, you're screwed and you should keep your money. Pilots who want to work hard realize they need ALPA and it's wealth of tools to succeed.

Some pilot groups do well with a union, some groups are better off sticking the dues in their pocket. If JetBlue pilots doesn't feel like ALPA can do anything for them, it's probably because they have no ambition to do anything to improve their lot. If you did want to improve your airline, at least if a majority of pilots did, you'd already have a union, in house or otherwise.

Maybe with one more failed union drive, JetBlue will get bought out by a union airline with a contract. Then the <49% of JetBlue pilots who want more from their airline in the way of pay and benefits will get what they want. The other >51% will simply win the lotto and likely complain about it because the SLI won't make any sense to them. Trust me the people who can't be bothered to read the contract are the same ones that can't be bothered to read the SLI award decision. You're better off being stapled, then everyone is unhappy but the process is so dumbed down they'll actually understand why they should be unhappy.

The flippant meter is running in the red tonight.

 

[GuppyPuppy]

Why go with ALPA when we are having trouble getting 50% of our pilots to
vote yes? The in-house option would have far better participation. If a CBA is what we need go with the sure thing. Yes we all know its expensive......SWAPA did okay

And in a perfect world we wouldn't need a union.

But, we don't live there.

Don't vote emotionally, vote logically.

GP

 

[hoover84]

We need our pilos vested in the new union. Any union with weak participation will be pushed around by the company.

 

[ASA_Aviator]

We need our pilos vested in the new union. Any union with weak participation will be pushed around by the company.

If a union is voted in, I think there will be good participation. The 49.9% that voted against it won't participate, but that won't make it weaker. Once there's a CBA it's not like the company can negotiate with the no voters separately.

 

[B6Busdriver]

We need our pilos vested in the new union. Any union with weak participation will be pushed around by the company.

For what your inhouse union will you'll really be vested. Thousands of dollars in assessments and higher dues with weaker representation. No thanks.

That said if you and your buddies that want an inhouse get their act together I'll sign a card.

 

[A350]

Hoover is right on.....

Further....you ALPA toters who think this is the cheaper way to go are being disingenuous. It costs x amout of dollars to unionize a pilot group, regardless of who is doing the representation.

The disingenuous part is that you don't want to cough up the resources out of your own pocket, you want to dip into the pockets of the other ALPA pilots for the resources and that is the pinnacle of hypocrisy.

Not to mention with that subsidy from ALPA for the organization comes the inevitable "strings attached" that is why most of us can't stand ALPA because they want to be a union but are really just a loose association which have policies that are just about as permeable as a bucket with no bottom. Further, at ALPA you will have a voice, but it will be the squeaky little voice way in the back of the room while the elephants like UAL and DAL get whatever THEY want whether you agree with it or not. It is just like government subsidy money for certain things for the states....play by their rules or they cut you off.

In house or nothing. If you believe, then you will pony up the money. If you don't want to pony up the money, then I guess you don't want it bad enough. Our own union will have the horsepower that WE provide. Nothing more, nothing less. I don't know about you, but I am a lot more willing to go to the mat when I spend my own money than when I spend someone elses'.

A350

 

[Splert]

HAL and Alaska 'squeaky' contract would be a wind fall for BlueJet zombies.

 

[A350]

Splert:

You don't need ALPA to get a good contract. Ask the SWA or the AMR guys. And you conveniently ignored the rest of the post.

If something came down the pike that would help the DAL guys and hurt the HAL guys, and ALPA had to make a choice, who would they pick?

A350

 

[Splert]

A350

Where are your in house cards?

You can say x is better than y all day long but x has no backing even from supporters such as yourself.

Stop posting and get your theory and hope into action.

Especially since you think it is a better idea.

The in house supporter is like Jeff Spicoli. They, or more accurately just he, light the in house bong and then pontificate about how great it would be and how it would be soooo much sweeter. Then he take a nap and wakes up and does nothing about it until he lights up the in house bong again and starts the entire cycle to no where again.

Do it!!! Only you are stoping you, Spicoli!!!

 

[Blue Dude]

In house or nothing.

Great! Where's my card? Oh, there's no card? No money? No plan, even? Why are you wasting our time with this crap? It's the CBA, not the name on the card, that matters.

We've got maybe 6 months to get our act together or it just won't matter what name's on the card. It's probably too late already but I'm not ready yet to give up.

 

[OurMoney1]

If this speculation of a SWA/B6 tie up is true ALPA is gonna hit the high road on you guys.

You waited too long and now will get to see what your funny contracts and smiles are worth. Good Luck we will all be watching.

 

[B6Busdriver]

The inhouse crowd never has a plan. They have done nothing and live in the past only to whine and cry about ALPA. For the umpteenth time go ahead and start your little inhouse fantasy and I will sign a card. You won't do it do it though, you'll just cry about ALPA and do nothing....as usual.

 

[Smarta$$]

Great! Where's my card? Oh, there's no card? No money? No plan, even? Why are you wasting our time with this crap? It's the CBA, not the name on the card, that matters.

We've got maybe 6 months to get our act together or it just won't matter what name's on the card. It's probably too late already but I'm not ready yet to give up.

So, what do you think is going to happen? Lay it out for us simple line pilots please.

BTW, I am yes to ALPA or In-house.

 

[LearLove]

As divided as JB pilots are, an in-house union would be worthless because no one will cough up the seed $$$ to get it off the ground. It will not have $$$, expertise, political clout...nothing; game over.

Then just vote in ALPA and let them set everything up and after a year or 2 dump ALPA for an inhouse union using the frame work they set up. Or maybe it's not that easy. Anyway good luck.

 

[$$$4nothin]

So, what do you think is going to happen? Lay it out for us simple line pilots please.

BTW, I am yes to ALPA or In-house.

I believe what he is getting at is the fact that once the company starts a certain level and type of code sharing(specifically domestic) it will highly diminish our career movement and earning potential. That level of code sharing is coming. The company has taken a little at a time for such a long time it doesn't throw enough people into a pissed off frenzy at any one time each time they take something. In the near future we will be offered a double digit percentage raise. My guess is 12-15% which gets JB to PSIA regarding actual hourly rate. The problem is that 15% is going to cost us a level of scope that will hurt the JB pilot group so bad it won't matter if the raise was 40%. This raise will help the top 20% of our group because they already are in the plane they want with good schedules. For the rest of us this means stagnation in the spot we are in forever. Best case scenario. Worst case scenario is furlough. Actually worse yet is part of the group is spun off to work for RAH or some other horrible low paying regional. I would gladly give up a 15% raise until ALPA comes on board and gets us a CBA with an airtight scope section and PSIA pay and benefits. Since most of our pilot group is in there 30's to 40's I would think this would be a no brainer, but I am surprised daily. Actually I was surprised very much by a conversation I had in my crash pad last week with a (I am from COMAIR and will never vote for ALPA no matter what because ALPA screwed me) guy last week, even though he is 30 years old. Even though I gave him 10 good reasons for ALPA that he couldn't argue with. It is becoming painfully obvious to me that our pilot group is one made up of enough military guys, and guys that have had it so bad for so long it doesn't matter what is taken they will just live with it. I will work as long and as hard as I can to get the protections we deserve as a group, or until Delta, Fedex, or UPS calls. Also keep in mind I am not one of the burn in to the ground blow hards either. As a matter of fact I love working at JetBlue. I love my schedule, and my household income/debt ratio is extremely good. ALPA is a business decision that I am making by looking out over the possibilites of a 30 year career with and without the protections a CBA provides, and the history of U.S. airlines over the past 40 years. Good luck to us all. I know you are pro CBA so this isn't completely for you, but for all interested in JB as a current and future employer.

 

[Blue Dude]

So, what do you think is going to happen? Lay it out for us simple line pilots please.

Personally, I don't think this round of consolidation is over and we're one of the few good targets left. We have good market position, prime real estate, slots that are nearly invaluable, paper thin career protection, and cheap stock. We're worth more dead than alive, and when the time comes, I'd like to have a shot at keeping my job, maybe even keeping my seat. That last may be too much to hope for, but as I say, I haven't given up yet.

 

[Smarta$$]

Personally, I don't think this round of consolidation is over and we're one of the few good targets left. We have good market position, prime real estate, slots that are nearly invaluable, paper thin career protection, and cheap stock. We're worth more dead than alive, and when the time comes, I'd like to have a shot at keeping my job, maybe even keeping my seat. That last may be too much to hope for, but as I say, I haven't given up yet.

Who do you see us with? Just curious.

 

[coogebeachhotel]

Southwest. Single airframe era is gone as Southwest is looking at widebodies. Unless of course Boeing builds a 737 widebody. I half joke. But if Southwest has two. Why not three? JFK is money for any carrier. Either to take us out or use us.

 

[Blue Dude]

Who do you see us with? Just curious.

I don't know. And it doesn't really matter which. We are uniquely vulnerable in the industry and sooner or later one of them will pounce. It's not if, but when.

 

[geardown]

Take a look at this airline route mapper, I have used it and it won't hurt your computer. It is pretty interesting when you put WN, FL, and B6 together in the custom box. It definitely makes for a compelling argument. You can click on any city to see all the routes flown. B6 does not overlap on much but they certainly complement the network.

http://arm.64hosts.com/

 

[coogebeachhotel]

There are many among us that when faced with cold dose of reality turn and stare into the warm glow of fantasyland.

 

[Ski-N-Fly]

It never ceases to amaze me how the majority can be so easily fooled. Hopefully more than enough have finally woken up to the reality of the corporate greed which flows freely through the veins and arteries of this airline.

Send in a card for representation so we can end this experiment and protect our careers.

 

[Splert]

A350 hit the in house bong. Then passed out.

 

[A350]

No bongin here....just letting you guys vent your anguish about your poor career prospects and lack of pay, benefits, and retirement.

Instead of $itching your brains out on this stupid forum, why not spend some time with your family, plan a vacation, or work an extra day to earn some extra $$$.

If you come to work, come with a smile, a willing to help attitude, and without that chip that you seem to always have on your shoulder about what you don't have compared to everyone else.

This company is buying airplanes. This company is hiring. This company pays better than a LOT of companies. Focus on what you have and not on what you don't. Expecting JB to pay SWA pay and bennies at 13 years of age is like expecting SWA to have paid UAL pay and bennies when they were 13 years old. Guess what? There would be no SWA if they had done that.

Get an in house going. It will pass handsomely. I won't start it because I don't have the expertise or the inclination. I do have a checkbook, and I am prepared to use it.

Are you or do you just want to take another hit off the ALPA pipe?

A350

 

[Splert]

Spicoli,

Leadership is the group who told us they wanted us to have PSIA pay, benefits, work rules. That was 2007. Leadership even pay protected a group of pilots, paid for hotels, meals and travel expenses to document the short falls and then agreed with the results but then punted. Also the in house will not pass because its supporters do nothing to start it. All-ya-all do is pass the in house bong, then say it would be 'sweeeeeet' and then pass out. The proof is years and years of in action.

 

[hyflyin]

No bongin here....just letting you guys vent your anguish about your poor career prospects and lack of pay, benefits, and retirement.

Instead of $itching your brains out on this stupid forum, why not spend some time with your family, plan a vacation, or work an extra day to earn some extra $$$.

If you come to work, come with a smile, a willing to help attitude, and without that chip that you seem to always have on your shoulder about what you don't have compared to everyone else.

This company is buying airplanes. This company is hiring. This company pays better than a LOT of companies. Focus on what you have and not on what you don't. Expecting JB to pay SWA pay and bennies at 13 years of age is like expecting SWA to have paid UAL pay and bennies when they were 13 years old. Guess what? There would be no SWA if they had done that.

Get an in house going. It will pass handsomely. I won't start it because I don't have the expertise or the inclination. I do have a checkbook, and I am prepared to use it.

Are you or do you just want to take another hit off the ALPA pipe?

A350

Fedex had a strong in-house union and .....went.... back.... to ...... ALPA.

Why?

In-house is worthless and expensive unless you have someone to back you up. For example the teamsters back up the IPA at UPS and vice versa. Comparatively for what you get, ALPA is the better choice.