Jet Blue Productivity Advantage

[HA25]

while I understand the importance of job security... the guys that senior at American, Delta, et al are not going anywhere any time soon, AND they have pentions and other bene's that SWA and JB don't offer. As for all this talk about how all the majors are going out of business and that JB and SWA are the only ones that will remain... check that attitude at the door... many a pilot flying for a great company got kicked to the curb down the line to his and everyones surprise. SWA is well managed today and the down economy is helping them and hurting their rivals.... give it some time and the tables could turn. In a strong economy, where money is not so tight, people may not want to make 3 stops and sit in coach on a business trip. And the people running the finances of SWA could turn over and idiots could take the help (all this would not be know except in hindsight)... Look at DAL and AMR vs UAL and US Air.... all have similar business, but two are BK and two still have billions in the bank to ride this out for years....

 

[banned username 1]

It's great to see people who are jazzed about their company, whoever they work for. They make great ambassadors every day and are essential to the company's success. Some may view with secret envy, wondering what it must be like to work at a place like that. Good for you guys- really. There really is room for everybody in this business given the passenger potential in this country.

What doesn't get put into the equation about costs per mile is the stuff that we as pilots rarely see: the non-operational support infrastructure. The newer carriers simply don't have the gargantuan "behind the scenes" people that the UALs and AMRs, etc. have. SWA, although having been around for awhile, has done a good job of staying lean and mean and hasn't lost sight of it's importance to do so. I like to equate businesses with organisms (no, I didn't say ORGASMS). You've read my opinions about business Darwinism and another is that every time you creat another department, ala Maslow, it's prime focus is survival and making itself bigger- and I don't care what they do, survival is paramount. UAL, and I'll be many others have departments for the most arcane stuff. Along with work rule changes and pay cuts for the operational employees, these are the people that unfortunately are going to have to be let go in order to return to profitability. I was not in the military, but I always thought of UAL as being like the government with its levels of staffing. It's OK if your company also prints the money, but in this case, we don't.

UAL78

 

[A4Forever]

JDUB. Pilot satisfaction surveys are certainly a new way to approach collective bargining. If JB is able to pull that off forever, the pilots being able to get improvements to their contract without having to go to the table, it may set a precedence for the entire industry. I just cant see management being that benevolent.

 

[JayDub]

A4Forever,

That's two of hoping it lasts. With this process, you can even get improvements in areas others can't. For example Chief pilot's office, and the Training Department. Right now, it makes no financial sense to p*** us off, and that's all the motivation I think these guys need.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. I've been treated like crap by an employer before. This ain't one of those times.

JayDub

 

[dogg]

So the argument drags on and on:
The only way to get real perspective is to go find and talk to the pilots, csa's, rampers, mechanics etc... who helped start AA, UAL, USAIR, DAL, NWA etc and see if their enthusiasm and excitement and customer service attitudes were similar to JET BLUE, AIRTRAN, SWA etc. I surmise that they were and it has been a long term subtle shift that has brought the big airlines to where they are today with their outrageous costs and crappy attitudes and flawed, failing business plans.
I think it is safe to say that any time that a person can be involved in the founding of a company, it is exciting and new and people are willing to make great sacrifice for the common good. But it takes truly great leadership to foster those attitudes beyond the startup period. Only time will tell. As for the discussion now, a lot of keystrokes are being wasted on both sides trying to compare an apple(old well established airline) to an orange(very small startup carrier). Carry on

 

[NYRANGERS]

"Industry leading pay" is only good if the checks are coming in.

FACT - When your furloughed from DAL, AMR, NWA, USA & UAL your not making "Industry Leading pay". Unless Home Depot has stepped it up?



Not too cool to take pot shots at the furloughed guys. I sincerely hope your words come back to bite you in the ass. You should not **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** with bad karma.

 

[HA25]

I guess what pisses me off is hearing pilots, and I work with some, who keep talking about how OVERPAID pilots are. I have FO's that tell me that the $48K they make is "more than they need" and who needs $200K and $300K.

Well, if we need to cut costs at AMR and UAL etc.... What about the $55,000/year gate agent and $75,000 flight attendants that through their unions have gotten the idea that they are as important as pilots. These were never intended to be career jobs at the airlines, and they ARE unskilled labor jobs that pay better than many white collor jobs. At UAL, they pay an A&P to marshall in airplanes... I did that for $6.50/hr when I was a student, and for much less when I was in the military. It's not rocket science!

 

[A4Forever]

V70T5: Ouch! My wife is a UAL flight attendent and would be happy to argue your point that she is "UNSKILLED LABOR". Maybe not brain surgery but surely not unskilled. Also, a senior FA at UAL flying all international would make somewhere between 40 and 45K with max hrs. Now she wants to know where she can make the 75K! Guess I should not let her read over my shoulder.

 

[HA25]

Don't know about UAL but senior F/A's at AMR make upwards of 75K.... Senior being 30 years Plus. This is what Im told, anyway.

As for unskilled.... by the definition of the department of labor, skilled labor is labor where there is an "unusually lengthy" amount of training required or advanced schooling. Most F/A classes people with no experience and turn them into fully qualified "crew" with in a months time. Hair stylists spend 6 or more months and bearly qualify as "skilled"

pilots have degrees, then years of experience before they touch the yoke at a mainline carrier.

So with all due respect to your wife (and my wife is an ex-teacher who made $29,000 with a masters degree), even $45K is excessive for an F/A, especially when there are as many as 30,000 of them and they don't just work until they get married anymore!

 

[Splert]

Do ground service personnel, customer service, FA's, Pilots get?

A). Health Insurance and if so what percentage is paid by the company how rich or poor are the benefits, is it an HMO or PPO, what is the deductible, are the co-payments high or low, what type of drugs are covered is there a list or is it an open formulary.

B). 401K matching contributions and if so what percentage,

C). Retirement accounts or pensions and if so what percentage,

D). Stock options,

E). Other employee benefits that do not show up on the paycheck but are otherwise paid for by the company?

Help me understand, how much does it cost for the employer to pay the employee $1.00 in hourly wages?

$2.00, $3.00 or $4.00 per hour?

Darn!

 

[NYRANGERS]

V70T5: Ouch! My wife is a UAL flight attendent and would be happy to argue your point that she is "UNSKILLED LABOR". Maybe not brain surgery but surely not unskilled. Also, a senior FA at UAL flying all international would make somewhere between 40 and 45K with max hrs. Now she wants to know where she can make the 75K! Guess I should not let her read over my shoulder.

Reminds me of this story..........(not sure if true or not)


F/A says to ground school instructor......
"We have three weeks of ground school, the pilots have five. If I stay for two more weeks can I be pilot?"

Regardless if true or not, I love that story.

Many Delta F/A's make 60K plus

 

[HA25]

that is a true story...... happened at AWA...

 

[canyonblue]

What about the $55,000/year gate agent and $75,000 flight attendants that through their unions have gotten the idea that they are as important as pilots. These were never intended to be career jobs at the airlines, and they ARE unskilled labor jobs that pay better than many white collor jobs

Dude,
Thats chump change to an autoworker who drives a forklift at GM. Try close to $100,000. My wife knows a woman who's brother-in-law does just that, and quit high school in the tenth grade. Most UNSKILLED laborers in the auto industry make more than any gate agent or F/A, and have a layoff benifit that pays them 90% of their pay while off for a few months. Its the UAW and why you pay $30,000 for a new car. The UNSKILLED control most companies as the wild cards. What group has United by the tomatos now. If you don't pay people enough you really can't expect them to care if you threaten to shut down their company. Read the Eastern story.

 

[HA25]

overpaid unskilled autoworkers are one issue, but we're talking about why it is that the airlines aren't able to afford to pay pilots like they used to.... back in the day, Pan paid their Caps twice what UAL paid theirs (adjusted for inflation).. today, but with $75/yr FA's and CSR's, the pot is being shared with 60000 other unskilled workers, don't forget $30/hr rampers and baggage handlers.....their people were mostly short term non union employees in the 50's-70's... they worked for a few years and then moved on to go to school, get married, or other unskilled work..

Don't you people get it? There is only so much you can bleed from this turnip(the airline). The old days were not like this, and don't give me this deregulation crap, that has nothing to do with cash flow.