Jet Blue Productivity Advantage

[HA25]

If Jetblue keeps paying an honest wage for a honest days work, keeps the union out, they should be able to maintain the cost advantage for years to come.

MIKE

Keeps "the union" out? I'm sorry, I thought I was on a pilots message board....

I have to say, that your point could just as easily be turned around and re-stated as.... if JB And SWA can bring their pay and work rules up to the level of the "Majors", maybe there would be whole lot less of us on the street because our airline can't compete on a level playing field with non-union, lower wage workers...

 

[Skank]

If you are on the street because you think Jetblue and its 34 airplanes put you there you are a little off in your braincase. I wouldn't hold your breath waiting for us to become like everyone else, either. Maybe you might want to flip on the T.V., or read a newspaper. There's a lot going on in this industry, and I guess you just haven't heard.

 

[Midnight Mike]

Just because you are a pilot does not mean that you have to belong to a union.

WORK RULES, these just about kill the airlines, even if Jetblue and United pilots were to make the same amount of money, Jetblue would still beat United or the other major airlines! '

If a Captain at United pulls in $300K, good for him, but make sure he works for that money, and not average 8-10 working days.

Jetblue also does other things to cut down on cost, like giving pilots laptop computers to cut down on Jepps charts.

TV monitors on every seat to encourage passengers to fly on Jetblue.

No meals, another cost saving measure.....

When I flew on Jetblue, the FA's asked the passengers to clean the area around them, so that Jetblue to cut down on cost & decrease turn-around time.

Flying "1" type of aircraft, this cuts down on training cost. The "1" aircraft type has worked at Southwest for years.

MIKE

 

[JayDub]

if JB And SWA can bring their pay and work rules up to the level of the "Majors", maybe there would be whole lot less of us on the street

I think you are the victim of flawed logic. It would seem to me if jetBlue did things like other airlines, jetBlue would mirror the other airlines. That is to say jetBlue would have people on the street too if they operated as inefficiently as the majors.

The CEO of jetblue makes $200,000/year with no stock options. Just a little differnt that say, UAL's dearly departed Goodwin. I have no problem working a fair days worth of work for a fair dollar. Especially when my CEO leads by example.

 

[NYRANGERS]

I I have no problem working a fair days worth of work for a fair dollar. Especially when my CEO leads by example.

I think this is a problem. The "fair days work for a fair dollar" is getting lower and lower. Now I don't think your wages have anything to do with furloughes at other airlines. I am just scared we are in the big wage race to the bottom.

Rember a "fair days worth of work for a fair dollar" is all relative. You and I have a completly different view of a "fairness".

I wonder what will happen to your wages when all the majors take the inevitable pay cuts? Food for thought.

 

[Seeniner]

My guess is no one with half a brain thinks JetBlue actually caused any of this current pain, but the title of this string does lend one to make comparisons to said company.

No doubt the CEO's are making too much money, but if anyone thinks for a second that JetBlue's CEO is just yucking it up with $200,000 a year, you need to go find that other brain half. Sure he may only receive $200,000 salary, and yes he may not get paid any stock options, but how much of the company does he own? You know, Bill Gates doesn't make much of a salary either, but he owns quite a bit of Microsoft, and he ain't doin' too bad.

 

[JayDub]

Sure he may only receive $200,000 salary, and yes he may not get paid any stock options, but how much of the company does he own?

The last I knew, Neeleman had 4,934,880.00 shares in jetBlue. With that said, tying what he invested in (as a venture capitalist) to his compensation is like my expecting to be compensated by jetBlue for losses I took on Lucent while investing on my own. It is preposterous. Nobody says George Soros got paid xxxxxx number of shares in jetBlue as compensation. He saw an opportunity and took a risk, the exact same thing Neeleman did. Soros doesn't get paid in jetBlue stock; he bought it with money he got from other dealings. The exact same thing Neeleman did.

Remember a "fair days worth of work for a fair dollar" is all relative. You and I have a completley different view of a "fairness".

I am just scared we are in the big wage race to the bottom.

So exactly what industry-leading precedent did PSA set while you were working there?

Respectfully,

JayDub

 

[HA25]

like NYRANGERS said, I just don't want to race JB and SWA to the bottom on wages.... we should always aim high.

Don't kid yourself, management will always aim low, that's just how it works.

And thank you, I do have a full brain and an MBA, but you don't need an MBA to understand supply and demand.

 

[airbus331]

I can tell you this about Jetblue. From the very first contact to arriving back home after the interview, there has never been a more convincing show of support for a company from employees ever. In the past several yrs, I had been interviewed by many of the "majors" and it was anything but a good experience by most accounts. The entire employee group at Jetblue displays in the open, why that company is successful today and why it will be in the distant future. Whoever came up with the formula for attitudes at that company should be commended, because it is across the board for positive outlooks. It is obvious why they are all there, to satisfy the customer, which is something so many of the others have forgotten.

Airbus331

 

[AlbieF15]

NY...

If you compare hourly rate to hourly rate, it is true SWA and JB do not pay what a UAL, DAL, or AAL pay.

However...depending on date of hire and other variables, there are a lot of guys who are millionares (so I hear) with stock at SWA. There are also annual profit sharing checks that aren't factored into the hourly rate.

Are there any really smart SWA guys who have a "real" handle on annual compensation for Capts and FOs the last few years (Mozam...where are you?). What does the typical 5 year FO and 10 year Capt really make?

Another wrinkle....would you rather work 20 years interupted by furloughs here and there, or work for less and not get laid off? At what point does a guy hired in 1998 by SWA catch or pass a 1998 AAL/UAL/DAL hire based on working verses NOT working? I said it in a previous post--I think many of you look at the HOURLY rate at SWA or JB and say "that's low". However, you may forget the extra money earned here or there with profit sharing, etc.

A/B funds verses stock options is a huge debate. The market may eat your options and stock. On the other hand, going out of business eliminates your retirement pensions. This gut check was one reason I went with Fedex...no guarantees but I really thought the pk of actually making it 23 years to retirement with them staying solvent was pretty good. (But...as any fighter pilot will tell you, nothing has a Pk of 1!)

What really matters to me is how much money do I have at the end of every month/year, and how many days did I have to be away from home to get those dollars. (I may be different here than some...but block time verses hotel time verses ground time is a wash with me...if I'm not at home with family I could really care less as long as I can get a safe/legal rest and good meal). I don't think the average JB or SWA guy leaves mom and the kids much if any more than any other major pilot, and with the various other compensations (at SWA anyway) I think the salary might be closer to the majors than you realize. Certainly the career earnings at some carriers may be lower than the old Air Inc charts in the pay guide, simply because guys are going to be furloughed for a few years or upgrading at a much slower than historical rate.

And for the record...I wish captains all made $500,000 a year. Every new contract that pushes wages up makes life better for all of us. However, the fact is the economy, the internet revolution, and inevitiable competition has put wage pressure on all of us. I think the most successful union groups are going to be the ones that figure out how to get some win-win compensation options from their carriers in the future, tying increased pay to increased profits and revenue. In any case--with my degree in aviation management, its hang tough in this business or wash cars, so I'll see all of you out there while slipping the surlies...

On a lighter note, my newest co-pilot landed today. It'll be 16 years before she can solo, but I'll be busy until then getting things in line for her. Hopefully I'll have a nice Steerman or Waco to train her in by then, but if not maybe she and her 2 sisters will tolerate bouncing around with their dad in a cardinal or tiger.

 

[Intruder One]

To NYRANGER

You are correct.....what happens if there is a race to the bottom,where does it stop or does mangement say lets see how low we can go.Not long ago ther was a comparision in the local paper about JB and United,no wonder JB is making money.The only ones making a decent wage are the pilots,rampers.FA's and gate agents are commuter wages.This will catch up with them sooner or later...and without happy service employees you have no airline.

 

[NYRANGERS]

So exactly what industry-leading precedent did PSA set while you were working there?

Respectfully,

JayDub

?????????????????????????

I don't understand what you mean? PSA was a great place for me to advance my career. I never planed on staying at PSA for the rest of my career.

 

[JayDub]

First off, let me say congratulations Albie!!! That's outstanding news. You know, they finally figured out what causes that.

NY Rangers, PSA didn't exactly break any records when it came to their contract, true. But salary and pay rate are always changing, it's the nature of the business. The point of my comment was that PSA was one of the first to jump on the PFT band wagon, and one of the last airlines to drop this practice.

I know several people that used PFT to get on at their first airline, and some I even consider close friends. That pretty much is their business. However, none of these people get on message boards and criticize other people for bringing down pay rates at their respective airlines. I don't know (or care) if you paid for your training at PSA, but as an airline they sure endorsed the practice. It just bugs me you seem to jump on every jetBlue thread of late to tell us that we, as an airline, are bringing down pay rates for the entire industry. Seems pretty gutsy for you to throw stones at jetBlue, having come from PSA.

You seem to be all worried about what I make, while USAirways is paying people hired in 1987 less than I make. I think you are misplacing your frustrations.

JayDub

 

[Intruder One]

To Jay Dub:

Not as a F/O you couldn't,only because you can go to the left seat so quick.If it were anywhere else it would be years before you would see the left seat, maybe never.One day the hiring will slow down or stop and then they will be like everyone else,nothing goes on forever. But as you are probably like most pilots the ones behind me are of no concern,just be thankful you were hired in the beginning.Start ups don't come along very often but when they do it's great for the first ones hired,but it's not a realistic comparsion to airlines that have been around 30 or 40+ years.

 

[Race Pilot]

CONGRATULATIONS ALBIE!!

Nice to see great things like that happen to people who do a great job offering constructive comments. Hope you have the plane you want by the time she's ready to solo.

Bill

 

[FedEx2003plz]

Washington Post

Here's what James K. Glassman had to say in the business section of today's "Post."

• JetBlue Airways (JBLU). Since its inception in December 1995, the Raymond James & Associates list of 10 best picks for the year ahead has returned an annual average of 47 percent, compared with just 9 percent for the S&P, an index it thoroughly whipped in each of the seven years. That's a fantastic record, and each year I pay close attention to the choices. The new list, just out last week, includes my favorite initial public offering of 2001: JetBlue Airways, which has just about everything going for it -- strong balance sheet, low costs, new fleet of planes, excellent routes, highly productive nonunion workforce, good cash flow, access to capital markets to fund its growth, demoralized competitors teetering on bankruptcy and customers (like me) who love the product. In a commodity business, JetBlue stands out for its use of technology and its great service (for example, live TV at each seat and a wonderful Web site for booking flights). Remember, however, that JetBlue is still small (market cap, $1.8 billion; revenue, $624 million) and the airline industry is highly volatile and at the mercy of oil prices and economic cycles. JetBlue's price has come back to reality after soaring to $55 shortly after the IPO, and, at $38 a share on Thursday, the stock's P/E (price to earnings) ratio, based on Raymond James's projections for 2003 profits, is 22 -- absurdly tame for a company that, if analyst Jim Parker is correct, could double its earnings in each of the next three years.

 

[Eagleflip]

Congratulations, Albie! I suppose all those stories about pulling Gz and having girls were actually true in your case.

To all, is the job thing about making as much money as possible or having a reasonable income while keeping a high level of job satisfaction? I'm not minimalizing the numerous issues that we've touched on this thread, but it seems to me that my overall happiness with JB nicely counterbalances the overall compensation issue.

None of us have crystal balls (!), so I figure we'll know if we made the right choice at age 60. As for me, I'm confident I will be a happy man with a happy family.

And maybe my son will marry Albie's daughter to boot...

 

[HA25]

congrats too albie....

on the other issue.... I think I've said enough.... Good luck to you JB pilots and lets hope that you all continue to work towards restoring this profession to its former levels.

 

[NYRANGERS]

NY Rangers, PSA didn't exactly break any records when it came to their contract, true. But salary and pay rate are always changing, it's the nature of the business. The point of my comment was that PSA was one of the first to jump on the PFT band wagon, and one of the last airlines to drop this practice.

I
JayDub

PSA wasn't pay for training when I was hired in 98'. I am still not sure what you are trying to say.

 

[Smoking Man]

PSA was one of the first to drop PFT, when PSA started getting the dorks in 95 the PFT was droped. I know the J-ball pilots were PFT, we operated EMB-120's for a short period of time, (not sure if any PFT occured during that time). No one has PFT on the Dornier.