Jet Blue Productivity Advantage

[Midnight Mike]

Jetblue is competive not because of the salaries, but because of the work rules, the same is true for Southwest.

At Southwest the pilots fly 80 hours & are paid for 80 hours.
At United the pilot fly 80 hours & are paid for 50 hours.

Southwest has been turning a profit for the past 25 years, I would think after 25 years, they should have senior pilots flying by now???

If Jetblue keeps paying an honest wage for a honest days work, keeps the union out, they should be able to maintain the cost advantage for years to come.

MIKE

 

[jointops]

G100,

I think a search on this site will give you additional pay info on the going salaries.

1st year Captain is $110 an hour for the first 70 hours. Anything over 70 hours is at time and a half (same policy for F/Os, F/As).

Our upgrades are running anywhere from 10 months to a year. I started in March and 4 guys from my class made it to the Dec upgrade. I missed Dec upgrade by 6 people. I missed Jan upgrade by 35. So you can see it's all timing.

Happy landings,

 

[JayDub]

United has to fly their airplanes more hours, with about 25%-30% fewer crews to match the productivty of the LLC's

The last I knew JB's target was 14 crew members per airplane. American Airlines has 11 per Super 80 in JFK (and would assume every where else). The red eyes really eat up crews.\

United flies there A-320's about 10 hrs a day, USAirways about 9 hrs a day, and JB about over 13 hours per day.

wait till JB has to start maintaining those busses, right now they just do light maintenance.... soon they'll have to ramp up a maintenance hub to support that fleet

So with this amount of utilization, you don't think we've needed a single C-check? Never had an engine change? We have three maintence hubs, and are working on building a hanger for heavy MX at JFK.

Only time will tell. However, from my perspective, I get treated better, with more respect, and more like a real person in a flight department with 511 pilots, than I ever did in a flight department with six pilots. That's what will keep this company strong and profitable for years to come.

Respectfully,

JayDub

 

[Seeniner]

Curious:
How much would a year one or two UAL A-320 capt make, if that were ever possible?

How much of a raise does a JetBlue pilot get each year? What will a 12 year JB capt make?

How often do 2 captains fly together on JB? It sounds like there are a lot of captains there.


Does anyone really thing JB "created a low fare customer base"? Of course these customer were "stolen", whether from other airlines, buses, or personal vehicle. It sounds like there are many business travelers on JB, they didn't just magically appear, they don't fly on another airline anymore. Any data on how far the average JB customer drives to the airport?

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to have a flying job right now.

See

 

[Andy Neill]

On date of signing for their current contract, I'm showing $193.73 and $195.34 for a 1st and 2nd yr captain on the A319/320 at United. After all the concessions that may or may not have taken place since then, who knows?

 

[HA25]

If Jetblue keeps paying an honest wage for a honest days work, keeps the union out, they should be able to maintain the cost advantage for years to come.

MIKE

Keeps "the union" out? I'm sorry, I thought I was on a pilots message board....

I have to say, that your point could just as easily be turned around and re-stated as.... if JB And SWA can bring their pay and work rules up to the level of the "Majors", maybe there would be whole lot less of us on the street because our airline can't compete on a level playing field with non-union, lower wage workers...

 

[Skank]

If you are on the street because you think Jetblue and its 34 airplanes put you there you are a little off in your braincase. I wouldn't hold your breath waiting for us to become like everyone else, either. Maybe you might want to flip on the T.V., or read a newspaper. There's a lot going on in this industry, and I guess you just haven't heard.

 

[Midnight Mike]

Just because you are a pilot does not mean that you have to belong to a union.

WORK RULES, these just about kill the airlines, even if Jetblue and United pilots were to make the same amount of money, Jetblue would still beat United or the other major airlines! '

If a Captain at United pulls in $300K, good for him, but make sure he works for that money, and not average 8-10 working days.

Jetblue also does other things to cut down on cost, like giving pilots laptop computers to cut down on Jepps charts.

TV monitors on every seat to encourage passengers to fly on Jetblue.

No meals, another cost saving measure.....

When I flew on Jetblue, the FA's asked the passengers to clean the area around them, so that Jetblue to cut down on cost & decrease turn-around time.

Flying "1" type of aircraft, this cuts down on training cost. The "1" aircraft type has worked at Southwest for years.

MIKE

 

[JayDub]

if JB And SWA can bring their pay and work rules up to the level of the "Majors", maybe there would be whole lot less of us on the street

I think you are the victim of flawed logic. It would seem to me if jetBlue did things like other airlines, jetBlue would mirror the other airlines. That is to say jetBlue would have people on the street too if they operated as inefficiently as the majors.

The CEO of jetblue makes $200,000/year with no stock options. Just a little differnt that say, UAL's dearly departed Goodwin. I have no problem working a fair days worth of work for a fair dollar. Especially when my CEO leads by example.

 

[NYRANGERS]

I I have no problem working a fair days worth of work for a fair dollar. Especially when my CEO leads by example.

I think this is a problem. The "fair days work for a fair dollar" is getting lower and lower. Now I don't think your wages have anything to do with furloughes at other airlines. I am just scared we are in the big wage race to the bottom.

Rember a "fair days worth of work for a fair dollar" is all relative. You and I have a completly different view of a "fairness".

I wonder what will happen to your wages when all the majors take the inevitable pay cuts? Food for thought.

 

[Seeniner]

My guess is no one with half a brain thinks JetBlue actually caused any of this current pain, but the title of this string does lend one to make comparisons to said company.

No doubt the CEO's are making too much money, but if anyone thinks for a second that JetBlue's CEO is just yucking it up with $200,000 a year, you need to go find that other brain half. Sure he may only receive $200,000 salary, and yes he may not get paid any stock options, but how much of the company does he own? You know, Bill Gates doesn't make much of a salary either, but he owns quite a bit of Microsoft, and he ain't doin' too bad.

 

[JayDub]

Sure he may only receive $200,000 salary, and yes he may not get paid any stock options, but how much of the company does he own?

The last I knew, Neeleman had 4,934,880.00 shares in jetBlue. With that said, tying what he invested in (as a venture capitalist) to his compensation is like my expecting to be compensated by jetBlue for losses I took on Lucent while investing on my own. It is preposterous. Nobody says George Soros got paid xxxxxx number of shares in jetBlue as compensation. He saw an opportunity and took a risk, the exact same thing Neeleman did. Soros doesn't get paid in jetBlue stock; he bought it with money he got from other dealings. The exact same thing Neeleman did.

Remember a "fair days worth of work for a fair dollar" is all relative. You and I have a completley different view of a "fairness".

I am just scared we are in the big wage race to the bottom.

So exactly what industry-leading precedent did PSA set while you were working there?

Respectfully,

JayDub

 

[HA25]

like NYRANGERS said, I just don't want to race JB and SWA to the bottom on wages.... we should always aim high.

Don't kid yourself, management will always aim low, that's just how it works.

And thank you, I do have a full brain and an MBA, but you don't need an MBA to understand supply and demand.

 

[airbus331]

I can tell you this about Jetblue. From the very first contact to arriving back home after the interview, there has never been a more convincing show of support for a company from employees ever. In the past several yrs, I had been interviewed by many of the "majors" and it was anything but a good experience by most accounts. The entire employee group at Jetblue displays in the open, why that company is successful today and why it will be in the distant future. Whoever came up with the formula for attitudes at that company should be commended, because it is across the board for positive outlooks. It is obvious why they are all there, to satisfy the customer, which is something so many of the others have forgotten.

Airbus331

 

[AlbieF15]

NY...

If you compare hourly rate to hourly rate, it is true SWA and JB do not pay what a UAL, DAL, or AAL pay.

However...depending on date of hire and other variables, there are a lot of guys who are millionares (so I hear) with stock at SWA. There are also annual profit sharing checks that aren't factored into the hourly rate.

Are there any really smart SWA guys who have a "real" handle on annual compensation for Capts and FOs the last few years (Mozam...where are you?). What does the typical 5 year FO and 10 year Capt really make?

Another wrinkle....would you rather work 20 years interupted by furloughs here and there, or work for less and not get laid off? At what point does a guy hired in 1998 by SWA catch or pass a 1998 AAL/UAL/DAL hire based on working verses NOT working? I said it in a previous post--I think many of you look at the HOURLY rate at SWA or JB and say "that's low". However, you may forget the extra money earned here or there with profit sharing, etc.

A/B funds verses stock options is a huge debate. The market may eat your options and stock. On the other hand, going out of business eliminates your retirement pensions. This gut check was one reason I went with Fedex...no guarantees but I really thought the pk of actually making it 23 years to retirement with them staying solvent was pretty good. (But...as any fighter pilot will tell you, nothing has a Pk of 1!)

What really matters to me is how much money do I have at the end of every month/year, and how many days did I have to be away from home to get those dollars. (I may be different here than some...but block time verses hotel time verses ground time is a wash with me...if I'm not at home with family I could really care less as long as I can get a safe/legal rest and good meal). I don't think the average JB or SWA guy leaves mom and the kids much if any more than any other major pilot, and with the various other compensations (at SWA anyway) I think the salary might be closer to the majors than you realize. Certainly the career earnings at some carriers may be lower than the old Air Inc charts in the pay guide, simply because guys are going to be furloughed for a few years or upgrading at a much slower than historical rate.

And for the record...I wish captains all made $500,000 a year. Every new contract that pushes wages up makes life better for all of us. However, the fact is the economy, the internet revolution, and inevitiable competition has put wage pressure on all of us. I think the most successful union groups are going to be the ones that figure out how to get some win-win compensation options from their carriers in the future, tying increased pay to increased profits and revenue. In any case--with my degree in aviation management, its hang tough in this business or wash cars, so I'll see all of you out there while slipping the surlies...

On a lighter note, my newest co-pilot landed today. It'll be 16 years before she can solo, but I'll be busy until then getting things in line for her. Hopefully I'll have a nice Steerman or Waco to train her in by then, but if not maybe she and her 2 sisters will tolerate bouncing around with their dad in a cardinal or tiger.