Jet Blue Pilots Files with N.M.B. for ALPA Representation

[sligo1]

Jet Blue Pilots File with N.M.B. for ALPA Representation

ALPA finally filed with the National Mediation Board this p.m. Now its up to J.B. pilots to choose their destiny.

 

[B6Busdriver]

Let's getrrrrr done!

 

[LearLove]

Let's getrrrrr done!

and say hello to mesa and republic flying your routes/aircraft - say goodbye to the bottom 1/3 of your list.


Why not an inhouse union?

 

[jynxyjericho]

ALPA finally filed with the National Mediation Board this p.m. Now its up to J.B. pilots to choose their destiny.

Fo'shizzle?

 

[dicko]

ALPA and RJ's; go together like Tequila, Tijuana and hookers. It's not good for you, you'll feel dirty and ashamed. It's the way of the world.

When you say "It won't happen to us". Count the ALPA Major airlines that don't outsource their flying.

Finished yet ?

 

[sligo1]

You try working under a " Direct Relationship", that points one way-towards management. This type of collaboration has been tried and tried again. We tried the in house route with plenty of help from SWAPA and APA. Now it is time to regain what has been lost over time. ALPA has the resources and benefits. Not perfect by any means, but when you can be minupulated like a pawn in a chess game ( Direct Relationship), you have to go on the defensive. We know all the pitfalls, but it far outweighs our current situation.

 

[Juniority]

ALPA and RJ's; go together like Tequila, Tijuana and hookers. It's not good for you, you'll feel dirty and ashamed. It's the way of the world.

When you say "It won't happen to us". Count the ALPA Major airlines that don't outsource their flying.

Finished yet ?

Brief, pithy and absolutely correct.

It even has a "wisdom of the ages" feel to it which is especially hard to achieve in 46 words when three of those words are "Tequila, Tijuana and Hookers."

 

[LearLove]

You try working under a " Direct Relationship", that points one way-towards management.

Yeah but under ALPA you will not be working at all and you will have to interview at Rep to fly the same jet (not same type of jet, I mean the exact same jet/metal/n number) - like as in leave some crumbs on the cockpit floor on your last JB trip and a month later (after a quickie indoc/sim at Republic/Mesa ect.) you'll be able to find the same crumbs only the aircraft registration card behind your head will have JB crossed out and Republic penned in.

I speak from my own experience.

 

[sligo1]

Yeah but under ALPA you will not be working at all and you will have to interview at Rep to fly the same jet (not same type of jet, I mean the exact same jet/metal/n number) - like as in leave some crumbs on the cockpit floor on your last JB trip and a month later (after a quickie indoc/sim at Republic/Mesa ect.) you'll be able to find the same crumbs only the aircraft registration card behind your head will have JB crossed out and Republic penned in.

I speak from my own experience.

Whats to stop that under our current working conditions? You have no idea the company has proposed a " scope clause: that allows the company to create or buy a alter-ego carrier with 78 seats or less. 78 seats umm maybe a E-170 vs. the E-190? Right now they could sell off the E-190 and the crews to anyone they feel like. ( ie Republic, Trans States, Eagle). They can do this because there is no senority protection, in a transacation or a furlough. Yeah we have a furlough protection clause, good luck trying to collect if they choose to change the game. No recourse at all.

 

[Secret Squirrel]

I speak from my own experience.

Because you were the pilot flying outsourced jets undercutting mainline wages? Didn't seem to give you heartburn then.

 

[LearLove]

Because you were the pilot flying outsourced jets undercutting mainline wages? Didn't seem to give you heartburn then.

Are you stupid? Do you know anything about the whole MDA deal? I took my own job when it was sold to Rep.

 

[LearLove]

Whats to stop that under our current working conditions? You have no idea the company has proposed a " scope clause: that allows the company to create or buy a alter-ego carrier with 78 seats or less. 78 seats umm maybe a E-170 vs. the E-190? Right now they could sell off the E-190 and the crews to anyone they feel like. ( ie Republic, Trans States, Eagle). They can do this because there is no senority protection, in a transacation or a furlough. Yeah we have a furlough protection clause, good luck trying to collect if they choose to change the game. No recourse at all.

Don't get me wrong - I'm not telling you to not unionize - I'm just saying an in-house would be way way better than ALPA, just look at their track record when it comes to outsourcing.

 

[Beetle007]

Are you stupid? Do you know anything about the whole MDA deal? I took my own job when it was sold to Rep.

Correct me where I might be wrong:

MDA "Mid Atlantic" never even had an operating certificate and was using the U.S. Airways operating certificate. The pilots didn't even realize this was occuring. Therefore, the judge said it was an asset sale instead of an airline acquisition. Didn't the Mid Atlantic pilots have recall rights to U.S. Airways when it was all said and done, but they would have to start from the bottom if they wanted to go to Republic.

 

[dicko]

Brief, pithy and absolutely correct.

It even has a "wisdom of the ages" feel to it which is especially hard to achieve in 46 words when three of those words are "Tequila, Tijuana and Hookers."

Unfortunately, I only told a small part of the story.

You have the earned luxury of SWAPA. A highly effective union that is blessed with management that wants something highly unusual; Peace and prosperity. I'm under no illusions that I know the whole story. Nor do I believe it's all sweetness and light. But .... Your situation is unique.

Unfortunately JetBlue pilots have no choice. An internal union will either fail or be ineffective for a decade. The financial burdon alone is almost untenable. Sadly, ALPA is their only immediate viable alternative. I truly hope they'll prosper.

I'll take SWAPA any day. Once they're finished with the veiled threats and free alcohol. It's a very confusing combination.









...

 

[Beetle007]

deleted

 

[scoreboardII]

So, isn't using the term "invite ALPA on property", isn't that akin to using their "distress word" so shouldn't the authorities be called to try and rescue someone who is being held hostage?

 

[Skyflyin]

ALPA and RJ's; go together like Tequila, Tijuana and hookers. It's not good for you, you'll feel dirty and ashamed. It's the way of the world.

When you say "It won't happen to us". Count the ALPA Major airlines that don't outsource their flying.

Finished yet ?

So your saying that ALPA is the reason that these major airlines outsource the flying, or would it be possible that ALPA came on the property BECAUSE these companies were outsourcing, or attempting to outsource the flying?

 

[Turtle21]

Don't get me wrong - I'm not telling you to not unionize - I'm just saying an in-house would be way way better than ALPA, just look at their track record when it comes to outsourcing.

Agree, ALPA sells fear and is way past its usefulness.

Its sorta like Kit Darby and the hysteria he is able to generate over fear of never being hired by a major. KD and ALPA are has beens and there are much better alternatives now.

 

[Turtle21]

So your saying that ALPA is the reason that these major airlines outsource the flying, or would it be possible that ALPA came on the property BECAUSE these companies were outsourcing, or attempting to outsource the flying?

ALPA and the company are like Dems and Repubs who pretend to fight each other so that the citizens can gravitate to one or the other to be protected, at a fee of course.

How many ALPA dues ever got a return on investment? Opinions of Rez and PCL don't count.

 

[jonjuan]

ALPA and the company are like Dems and Repubs who pretend to fight each other so that the citizens can gravitate to one or the other to be protected, at a fee of course.

How many ALPA dues ever got a return on investment? Opinions of Rez and PCL don't count.

Alpa finally got AT a much improved contract.

 

[vetrider]

Go Alpo go! Hip hip hurrah! Alpo alpo alpo! Hoorah!

 

[ualdriver]

ALPA and the company are like Dems and Repubs who pretend to fight each other so that the citizens can gravitate to one or the other to be protected, at a fee of course.

How many ALPA dues ever got a return on investment? Opinions of Rez and PCL don't count.

I have definitely received a return on my investment. Had we not had ALPA protecting our interests through the bankruptcy, the pay cuts we pilots would have taken would have been MUCH greater than the 2% that I pay. Also, management would have split our airline in half (narrow body/wide body) and set up a whipsaw that would have cost us a fortune to undo. Further, the bond that the company paid its pilots got many pilots a significant amount of money. Senior pilots received a few hundred thousand. The idea of floating this bond came from an ALPA purchased consultant, and Delta later "copied" that idea and got themselves a nice chunk of change, similar to the amount we received I believe. For me, it covered my ALPA dues for the rest of my career and a little more.

And it wasn't "ALPA" that allowed the RJs on the property. The individual pilot groups did that, and it would have happened no matter what the name on the union representing those pilots was. Obviously, an error on our part but I don't blame ALPA for my mistakes or those of other pilots.

I think the guys that say ALPA is responsible for this outsourcing are just trying to scare the fence sitters. If the JB guys get ALPA on the property, they can decide themselves what to do with scope. If they get crappy scope, it will be their own fault for voting for it when they negotiate their first contract. I would hope they would learn from our errors concerning this issue no matter which union they ultimately get on the property.

 

[BLUE BAYOU]

I have definitely received a return on my investment. Had we not had ALPA protecting our interests through the bankruptcy, the pay cuts we pilots would have taken would have been MUCH greater than the 2% that I pay. Also, management would have split our airline in half (narrow body/wide body) and set up a whipsaw that would have cost us a fortune to undo. Further, the bond that the company paid its pilots got many pilots a significant amount of money. Senior pilots received a few hundred thousand. The idea of floating this bond came from an ALPA purchased consultant, and Delta later "copied" that idea and got themselves a nice chunk of change, similar to the amount we received I believe. For me, it covered my ALPA dues for the rest of my career and a little more.

And it wasn't "ALPA" that allowed the RJs on the property. The individual pilot groups did that, and it would have happened no matter what the name on the union representing those pilots was. Obviously, an error on our part but I don't blame ALPA for my mistakes or those of other pilots.

I think the guys that say ALPA is responsible for this outsourcing are just trying to scare the fence sitters. If the JB guys get ALPA on the property, they can decide themselves what to do with scope. If they get crappy scope, it will be their own fault for voting for it when they negotiate their first contract. I would hope they would learn from our errors concerning this issue no matter which union they ultimately get on the property.

The fact is UAL pilots had the "dream" contract before 9/11. This contract was gained through many years of negotiations, slowdowns and strikes. However, the company has the ultimate power-- called bankruptcy. The reset button was pushed and all those years and contracts went down the tubes. No union will ever prevent that.

 

[pilotyip]

The fact is UAL pilots had the "dream" contract before 9/11. This contract was gained through many years of negotiations, slowdowns and strikes. However, the company has the ultimate power-- called bankruptcy. The reset button was pushed and all those years and contracts went down the tubes. No union will ever prevent that.

Doesn't the consumer have something to do with this, like they would not pay the prices to support the UAL pre-9/11 contract?

 

[Neubyfly]

ALPA sucks

 

[sligo1]

ALPA sucks

Having nothing sucks worse.

 

[Turtle21]

Having nothing sucks worse.

10 out of 9 pilots are taught to believe the only alternative to ALPA is nothing. And ironically, absent the brainwashing they receive in exchange for their dues, 10 out of 9 ALPA pilots would still believe that nothing is better, and none of them can remember when they had the wool pulled over their eyes.

 

[scoreboardII]

The fact is UAL pilots had the "dream" contract before 9/11. This contract was gained through many years of negotiations, slowdowns and strikes. However, the company has the ultimate power-- called bankruptcy. The reset button was pushed and all those years and contracts went down the tubes. No union will ever prevent that.

You see, right there, thats how ALPA lost it for UAL pilots, they killed the goose. They held the gun to the heads of management and said "go ahead, give it too us or we'll strike". They did, and they got exactly what any reasonably minded person could have told them, they went bankrupt. Yes, ALPA caused that.

 

[scoreboardII]

Having nothing sucks worse.

Ask the UAL pilots furloughed about that.

 

[sligo1]

10 out of 9 pilots are taught to believe the only alternative to ALPA is nothing. And ironically, absent the brainwashing they receive in exchange for their dues, 10 out of 9 ALPA pilots would still believe that nothing is better, and none of them can remember when they had the wool pulled over their eyes.

What is better is a perfect world, where management and employees unilaterally work together. Both have their needs met for profitabilty and compensation. Unfortunatley the airline business doesn't operate on that notion. Management has fiscal duties for share holders, pilots have responsability to each other. Collaboration only works when "both" sides are held accountable. Is ALPA the end -all, definatley not but its a start for Jetblue pilots.