JB v/s SWA

[Widow's Son]

elag,

Just a few clarifications. First of all, no FO at SWA is forced to spend more than a few months on reserve and lately with all the classes going on, a month or two is common. Secondly, reserves actually are some of the highest paid on a monthly basis if they work the system. 95 trip credits a month is on the low side of any SWA pilot other than those who purposely don't want to work much.

 

[elag777]

Truth hurts? LMAO. But remember you responded to me first.

I think it should be TOOMA in your case JP4

 

[elag777]

elag,

Just a few clarifications. First of all, no FO at SWA is forced to spend more than a few months on reserve and lately with all the classes going on, a month or two is common. Secondly, reserves actually are some of the highest paid on a monthly basis if they work the system. 95 trip credits a month is on the low side of any SWA pilot other than those who purposely don't want to work much.

Like I said, not gospel and I was pretty sure there was not a 3yr rsv period at WN and 95 hrs is pretty productive, but maybe not as far down as the most junior line holder?

 

[clickclickboom]

ahh shucks...you trying to insult me? What are those 190 rates again? Now THAT is an insult. I don't blame you for being testy..look at what you are trying to defend.

It doesnt upset me one bit because i made the decision to work here.

I put plan B into action before and during plan A of being a professional pilot. I have been on both sides of the fence from large corporate flight departments, to freight, to fractional, and on to jetblue. I have had the $190,000 corporate gig in the Falcon and GIV that worked 7-10 days per month with barely any rons and watched it disappear in less than 30 days when the chairman died of cancer and his successor was able to save 6 million a year by buying a citation and hiring contract pilots.

Personally I think life is great: 16-18 days a month off, commutable trips, Play golf, go to the beach with my kids while living in paradise, Fly my Extra or Baron 7-10 times per month, Manage my real estate investments and other businesses. dang I love this country..

Hell I have even been known to help clean airplanes, CARRY a customers bag, I EVEN PUSHED A WHEELCHAIR UP THE JETWAY LAST WEEK!!!! On top of that I am even known to associate with 190 pilots can you beleive that one!!

I am sure you wouldnt understand but thats okay you are entitled to your opinion... really.... Now please proceed to segment out my reply and post 15 consecutive messages in response.

 

[oldxfr8dog]

Not quite a wash. Assuming that a three year tenure at both companies are still on rsv, rsv Capt at JetBlue and still on rsv as an FO at WN (don't know if there is a three year rsv period at WN) B6 res capt would be up over $1500.00 over the 3yr res WN guy. A WN line holder would have to fly approx 95hrs of credit to match the rsv pay at B6, however I am sure you are correct about the QOL being better though.


This info is not gospel and should not be taken as such

Found a payscale.
A 3-year F/O at SWA would have to earn just a tad less than 85 hours to equal a 3-year reserve capt. at JB.
And the JB capt would only have 12 days off a month. Fairly certain the SWA F/O would have a better QOL.

 

[Comair49%er]

The 2 things I would look at would be

1. Stability
2. Quality of Life

I think quality of life would be great at either company. Now stability, SWA has been around a long time and will more than likely continue to survive. Jetblue, I wish them luck, but who really knows. I wish I had a crystal ball or psychic abilities. Good luck! What a wonderful choice to have to make.

 

[Whistlin' Dan]

Look at it this way...No matter which one you take, you're going to have a great story to tell a few years down the road.

 

[Longhorn]

JP4...and others. Lets PLEASE not turn this thread into another blue bash...defend ourselves thread. This has been rehashed time and time again. If you all want to call eachother names then use the PM function and not the public forum. From now on..if it involves name calling or degrading the thread...I will just delete it and lock the thread!!

 

[zonker]

Found a payscale.
A 3-year F/O at SWA would have to earn just a tad less than 85 hours to equal a 3-year reserve capt. at JB.
And the JB capt would only have 12 days off a month. Fairly certain the SWA F/O would have a better QOL.

We can do paid drops/swaps on reserve days as long as the reserve coverage is adequate, and depending on the day it usually is. Sometimes we have opportunities to fly or get paid over 75 hours, sometimes not.

I normally get 15-16 days off a month. I'm not saying we shouldn't be paid more, it's just that I think my QOL stacks up pretty well with a 3rd year SWA FO.

 

[radarlove]

g numerous focus groups of employees to come up with cost cutting measures that currently amount to a savings of over $100,000,000 per year.

Uh, did we misplace a decimal point there bud?

 

[:-)]

Did you mean to sound arrogant when you asked how a civilian pilot got concurrent offers from two of the three majors hiring?

No when I mean to sound arrogant it's usually obvious

I've been around long enough to know that civilians do not usually get concurrent interview offers, military guys do. When a military guy exits, and enters the market he normally gets numerous interviews. Some like it, some don't, I don't particularly care. On the other hand, most civilian pilots send out resumes and/or apply as soon as they reach the hiring minimuns required by their desired carrier. Due to the highly dissimilar techniques used to bring in interviewees, it is unusual for a civilian to just happen to get kicked out of the "bring this guy in" computer from differing companies. The only way that I would believe that this might happen other than pure chance, is if the lucky person was a very well qualified, non -airline pilot with some sort of specialty that made him stand out from the masses of the rest of those applicants. Applicants who most likely have multiple type ratings, thousands of hours of 121PIC, college degrees, etc. In other words, it's dammed hard to stand out as a civilian in a any way that gets enough attention to get called by two of the three majors that happen to be hiring. If the guy is real, odds are he is military. If not military, he's either real lucky, or his background is highly dissimilar to the average civilian pilot.

 

[oldxfr8dog]

We can do paid drops/swaps on reserve days as long as the reserve coverage is adequate, and depending on the day it usually is. Sometimes we have opportunities to fly or get paid over 75 hours, sometimes not.

I normally get 15-16 days off a month. I'm not saying we shouldn't be paid more, it's just that I think my QOL stacks up pretty well with a 3rd year SWA FO.

Zonker, let's be honest for those that are making big decisions. If you PTO a reserve day, your PTO is deducted, it's NOT free and it's NOT A DAY OFF. You PAID FOR IT. If you can get CS to release you when they're overstaffed (good luck), THAT's a day off and it's totally random. Otherwise, you get 12 days off a month! You want to trade your Vacation/Sick time to get more, fine. But don't make it look like JB GIVES you 15-16 days off.

I have been on reserve for over 30 months. I have flown more than 75 hours (guarantee) ONCE.
In June, I flew almost 73 hours. (oh, SO close...) Mostly early first days and late last days. Yeah, those are extra nights at the crashpad, because JB doesn't want to spend the MONEY to optimize reserve scheds. TWO hour call-outs. Period. I am sick of hearing about how they are "working" on improving the reserve QOL. Forget TELLING ME! SHOW ME!
You're happy here. GREAT! But don't mislead others reading this stuff.

Kool aide aside, it's just another freakin' airline.
This is my fifth, how many for you?

 

[zonker]

Zonker, let's be honest for those that are making big decisions. If you PTO a reserve day, your PTO is deducted, it's NOT free and it's NOT A DAY OFF. You PAID FOR IT. If you can get CS to release you when they're overstaffed (good luck), THAT's a day off and it's totally random. Otherwise, you get 12 days off a month! You want to trade your Vacation/Sick time to get more, fine. But don't make it look like JB GIVES you 15-16 days off.

I have been on reserve for over 30 months. I have flown more than 75 hours (guarantee) ONCE.
In June, I flew almost 73 hours. (oh, SO close...) Mostly early first days and late last days. Yeah, those are extra nights at the crashpad, because JB doesn't want to spend the MONEY to optimize reserve scheds. TWO hour call-outs. Period. I am sick of hearing about how they are "working" on improving the reserve QOL. Forget TELLING ME! SHOW ME!
You're happy here. GREAT! But don't mislead others reading this stuff.

Kool aide aside, it's just another freakin' airline.
This is my fifth, how many for you?

Take it easy champ. You're going to hurt someone with that boldfaced type.



I was just saying that it's possible to get more than 12 days off on reserve (most people do) and that my QOL is pretty good. I'm sure they do paid drops at SWA and have the ability to take vacation time, which is "paid for" by the employee.

Also I upgraded in the Bus in less than 3 years, which isn't going to be the case for a newhire anymore. But Captain > FO in the QOL discussion. Get it? This place isn't perfect but I've been treated decently for the most part. Your mileage may vary.

How is it that you've sat reserve for 30 months here? Are you based in LGB or FLL?

 

[ATR-DRIVR]

How is it that you've sat reserve for 30 months here? Are you based in LGB or FLL?

Exactly.

 

[Sailpilot]

FLL Capt isn't 30 months of RSV unless you bid for it.

 

[canyonblue]

All of our engine gauges go to 11.

 

[oldxfr8dog]

Take it easy champ. You're going to hurt someone with that boldfaced type.



I was just saying that it's possible to get more than 12 days off on reserve (most people do) and that my QOL is pretty good. I'm sure they do paid drops at SWA and have the ability to take vacation time, which is "paid for" by the employee.

Also I upgraded in the Bus in less than 3 years, which isn't going to be the case for a newhire anymore. But Captain > FO in the QOL discussion. Get it? This place isn't perfect but I've been treated decently for the most part. Your mileage may vary.

How is it that you've sat reserve for 30 months here? Are you based in LGB or FLL?

It's possible to get more than 12 days off, but you are using your vacation/sick time to do it. That's not exactly "off" is it?
The fact is, if you are a 3 year SWA f/o flying at least 85 hours, you will make the same pay as a JB reserve capt. You will have more days off, unless (oops, sorry! The bold slipped) you take vacation every month.
I am based in LGB and I have never bid reserve.
Please don't throw the "Well, it's your choice to be based there", bomb.

I'm glad you're happy.

Would a SWA person tell me if it's true that SWA reserves get 15 days off (and I don't mean using vacation/sick time) a month?

 

[Fly-diver]

Would a SWA person tell me if it's true that SWA reserves get 15 days off (and I don't mean using vacation/sick time) a month?

SWA F/O lines for July in MCO - 19 reserve lines, all have 16 days off, all pay 90 trips for pay. There may be some variation among the different domiciles, but not much.

 

[elag777]

It's possible to get more than 12 days off, but you are using your vacation/sick time to do it. That's not exactly "off" is it?
The fact is, if you are a 3 year SWA f/o flying at least 85 hours, you will make the same pay as a JB reserve capt. You will have more days off, unless (oops, sorry! The bold slipped) you take vacation every month.
I am based in LGB and I have never bid reserve.
Please don't throw the "Well, it's your choice to be based there", bomb.

I'm glad you're happy.

Would a SWA person tell me if it's true that SWA reserves get 15 days off (and I don't mean using vacation/sick time) a month?

Commute to JFK and I am sure your QOL will improve 100% but that is your choice right? and at WN its more like 95hrs at 3rd yr FO to match the 70hrs plus the 5 at premium on rsv at B6 as a 3yr junior capt on rsv. Sorry but with the option not many will feel your pain. "Bombs away!" You should also be pushing 5yr pay too?

 

[Bavarian Chef]

30 months reserve in LGB? Wow. If you live in base, I guess that's alright. Had a dude in my class from US Air, I think he was on reserve for something like 15 years.

New rumor: Oakland will be a new base, LGB will go away. Same thing will happen to FLL when we open Orlando.

Also, the 20 or so going to Virgin America is true. Heard one talking about how he was hired as a check airman. 95k a year for off the street captains, and thus the limbo bar is lowered again.

 

[oldxfr8dog]

Commute to JFK and I am sure your QOL will improve 100% but that is your choice right? and at WN its more like 95hrs at 3rd yr FO to match the 70hrs plus the 5 at premium on rsv at B6 as a 3yr junior capt on rsv. Sorry but with the option not many will feel your pain. "Bombs away!" You should also be pushing 5yr pay too?

My figures may be in error, but I believe SWA 3rd year f/o pay is $104 an hour. 3rd year JB Capt pay is $114. 70 x $114= $7980. 5 hours premium = $855. $7980 + $855 = $8835. $8835 / $104 = 84.95 hours
I know I shouldn't do math in public, but where's my error?

 

[ivauir]

Not busting on the JB pay system but all of this talk of premium pay and "PTO" confuses the issue. Try to compare apples to apples. Remember, that 3rd year SWA FO has options with his schedule too.

As an eample, I (a forth year FO) do a lot of my flying at time and a half. It lets me average over 120 TFP and at least 15 days off a month. I live in domidile and am willing to have some uncertainty in my schedule. Your milage may vary.

On the other hand I think the time to upgrade at SWA is under stated. "Real" Captain (disregard the lance program) takes at least 6 years and I am counting on 8 to 8 in PHX.

My point is simply that if you are trying to compare pay and QOL keep it as simple as possible, both companies seems to have systems that enable pilots to optimize the pay/QOL equation to best suit their needs, but throwing those variables into the mix make it impossible to compare pay rates.

 

[clickclickboom]

no i didnt

Uh, did we misplace a decimal point there bud?

Actually approximately $40,000,000 has already been put into action..

On top of that we currently have approx 93 employees per plane. Airtran has like 65 and SWest has approx 80

Our goal as more new aircraft deliveries come online is to get our number to 83 employees per plane.

From the mouth of Dave and Dave that will save us $100,000,000 per year

 

[oldxfr8dog]

30 months reserve in LGB? Wow. If you live in base, I guess that's alright. Had a dude in my class from US Air, I think he was on reserve for something like 15 years.

New rumor: Oakland will be a new base, LGB will go away. Same thing will happen to FLL when we open Orlando.

Also, the 20 or so going to Virgin America is true. Heard one talking about how he was hired as a check airman. 95k a year for off the street captains, and thus the limbo bar is lowered again.

Agreed. Rsv at home would be great. I don't live in cal.
OAK should have been the base in the first place, but I think we were keeping our distance from SWA. Also, I think DN thought we would water LGB's eyes with our service and they would increase the slots. Despite the fact that the UPS 767 makes more noise than our whole fleet, the hairy-legged, sandal wearers (and those are the women) continue to limit our growth in LGB.
What kind of incentive is VA offering? Why leave JB to take such a big paycut?

 

[elag777]

My figures may be in error, but I believe SWA 3rd year f/o pay is $104 an hour. 3rd year JB Capt pay is $114. 70 x $114= $7980. 5 hours premium = $855. $7980 + $855 = $8835. $8835 / $104 = 84.95 hours
I know I shouldn't do math in public, but where's my error?

Hey you know you may be right, I had $94hr/3rd yr at WN so I may be out of date. I am not knocking you situation either. Living in base is a luxury that 80% of the industry don't have and commuting is a strain to say the least, especially a trans con.

 

[Spectre]

Teamwork is just another cute term for getting someone to do something for free. But when you are at the point of dumping aircraft due to heavy check costs, every pillow you place will be one less thing that minimum wage foreign national has to do.

I think SWA flight attendants clean their planes just like JB flight attendants. JB pilots have the time to help their crews because they don't have 20 minute turns. If SWA didn't have 20 minute turns, I think their good pilots, except you, would actually help out for free.

As for selling A320s, it's a great idea to sell what is worth more on the used market today to generate cash and limit liabilities. JB is still buying new airplanes (although fewer) and growing at a 20% growth rate. Will be at a SWA city near you soon with a better product.

 

[mdf]

Deep Thought

One pays cash for new airplanes..........The other sells new airplanes for cash.

 

[elag777]

One pays cash for new airplanes..........The other sells new airplanes for cash.

I think you will see the average fleet rotation of around six years. Not only is it smart, it drastically reduces maintenance costs and keeps the average fleet age low. Lufthansa does this and they seem to be doing just fine. 35000 plus cycles on the first few a320's and in the deal I hear we recouped the original expenditure thus using them for next to nothing over the last six years or so. Smart I think.:erm: I am sure WN has never returned a lease or sold an older a/c though right

 

[VVJM265]

All of our engine gauges go to 11.

LOL...Beautiful!

 

[Dogwood]

all pay 90 trips for pay.

Well there's the problem. I only do four trips per month.

That was a joke ...