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JB v/s SWA

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elag777 said:
Commute to JFK and I am sure your QOL will improve 100% but that is your choice right? and at WN its more like 95hrs at 3rd yr FO to match the 70hrs plus the 5 at premium on rsv at B6 as a 3yr junior capt on rsv. Sorry but with the option not many will feel your pain. "Bombs away!" You should also be pushing 5yr pay too?:confused:
My figures may be in error, but I believe SWA 3rd year f/o pay is $104 an hour. 3rd year JB Capt pay is $114. 70 x $114= $7980. 5 hours premium = $855. $7980 + $855 = $8835. $8835 / $104 = 84.95 hours
I know I shouldn't do math in public, but where's my error?
 
Not busting on the JB pay system but all of this talk of premium pay and "PTO" confuses the issue. Try to compare apples to apples. Remember, that 3rd year SWA FO has options with his schedule too.

As an eample, I (a forth year FO) do a lot of my flying at time and a half. It lets me average over 120 TFP and at least 15 days off a month. I live in domidile and am willing to have some uncertainty in my schedule. Your milage may vary.

On the other hand I think the time to upgrade at SWA is under stated. "Real" Captain (disregard the lance program) takes at least 6 years and I am counting on 8 to 8 in PHX.

My point is simply that if you are trying to compare pay and QOL keep it as simple as possible, both companies seems to have systems that enable pilots to optimize the pay/QOL equation to best suit their needs, but throwing those variables into the mix make it impossible to compare pay rates.
 
no i didnt

radarlove said:
Uh, did we misplace a decimal point there bud?

Actually approximately $40,000,000 has already been put into action..

On top of that we currently have approx 93 employees per plane. Airtran has like 65 and SWest has approx 80

Our goal as more new aircraft deliveries come online is to get our number to 83 employees per plane.

From the mouth of Dave and Dave that will save us $100,000,000 per year
 
Bavarian Chef said:
30 months reserve in LGB? Wow. If you live in base, I guess that's alright. Had a dude in my class from US Air, I think he was on reserve for something like 15 years.

New rumor: Oakland will be a new base, LGB will go away. Same thing will happen to FLL when we open Orlando.

Also, the 20 or so going to Virgin America is true. Heard one talking about how he was hired as a check airman. 95k a year for off the street captains, and thus the limbo bar is lowered again.
Agreed. Rsv at home would be great. I don't live in cal.
OAK should have been the base in the first place, but I think we were keeping our distance from SWA. Also, I think DN thought we would water LGB's eyes with our service and they would increase the slots. Despite the fact that the UPS 767 makes more noise than our whole fleet, the hairy-legged, sandal wearers (and those are the women) continue to limit our growth in LGB.
What kind of incentive is VA offering? Why leave JB to take such a big paycut?
 
oldxfr8dog said:
My figures may be in error, but I believe SWA 3rd year f/o pay is $104 an hour. 3rd year JB Capt pay is $114. 70 x $114= $7980. 5 hours premium = $855. $7980 + $855 = $8835. $8835 / $104 = 84.95 hours
I know I shouldn't do math in public, but where's my error?

Hey you know you may be right, I had $94hr/3rd yr at WN so I may be out of date. I am not knocking you situation either. Living in base is a luxury that 80% of the industry don't have and commuting is a strain to say the least, especially a trans con.
 
JP4user said:
Teamwork is just another cute term for getting someone to do something for free. But when you are at the point of dumping aircraft due to heavy check costs, every pillow you place will be one less thing that minimum wage foreign national has to do.

I think SWA flight attendants clean their planes just like JB flight attendants. JB pilots have the time to help their crews because they don't have 20 minute turns. If SWA didn't have 20 minute turns, I think their good pilots, except you, would actually help out for free.

As for selling A320s, it's a great idea to sell what is worth more on the used market today to generate cash and limit liabilities. JB is still buying new airplanes (although fewer) and growing at a 20% growth rate. Will be at a SWA city near you soon with a better product.
 
Deep Thought

One pays cash for new airplanes..........The other sells new airplanes for cash.
 
mdf said:
One pays cash for new airplanes..........The other sells new airplanes for cash.

I think you will see the average fleet rotation of around six years. Not only is it smart, it drastically reduces maintenance costs and keeps the average fleet age low. Lufthansa does this and they seem to be doing just fine. 35000 plus cycles on the first few a320's and in the deal I hear we recouped the original expenditure thus using them for next to nothing over the last six years or so. Smart I think.:erm: I am sure WN has never returned a lease or sold an older a/c though right:)
 
clickclickboom said:
Actually approximately $40,000,000 has already been put into action..

On top of that we currently have approx 93 employees per plane. Airtran has like 65 and SWest has approx 80

Our goal as more new aircraft deliveries come online is to get our number to 83 employees per plane.

From the mouth of Dave and Dave that will save us $100,000,000 per year

You didn't major in math in college, did you?

If you actually saved $40MM this year, JBLU would break even for the year, even after your $42MM loss in the first quarter. News Flash: Not.

If you were to save $100MM, you would earn more profit for the year than LUV. Double news flash: Not.

In 2005, JBLU's TOTAL REVENUE was only $1,700MM and you're telling me that pilot-induced cost savings are going to save $100MM? Twenty percent of your entire cost structure (unfortunately, JBLUs costs are higher than revenue) is going to be saved?

That would send your profit margin through the roof, better than all of the other airlines combined. Not.

Your figures are wrong.
 
radarlove said:
You didn't major in math in college, did you?

If you actually saved $40MM this year, JBLU would break even for the year, even after your $42MM loss in the first quarter. News Flash: Not.

If you were to save $100MM, you would earn more profit for the year than LUV. Double news flash: Not.

In 2005, JBLU's TOTAL REVENUE was only $1,700MM and you're telling me that pilot-induced cost savings are going to save $100MM? Twenty percent of your entire cost structure (unfortunately, JBLUs costs are higher than revenue) is going to be saved?

That would send your profit margin through the roof, better than all of the other airlines combined. Not.

Your figures are wrong.


Don't bother talking facts. Once they get that blue aide through IV you can't tell them anything. Next thing you know the spelling cop will be on here to dillute your post.
 
Jb Cost Savings

radarlove said:
You didn't major in math in college, did you?

If you actually saved $40MM this year, JBLU would break even for the year, even after your $42MM loss in the first quarter. News Flash: Not.

If you were to save $100MM, you would earn more profit for the year than LUV. Double news flash: Not.

In 2005, JBLU's TOTAL REVENUE was only $1,700MM and you're telling me that pilot-induced cost savings are going to save $100MM? Twenty percent of your entire cost structure (unfortunately, JBLUs costs are higher than revenue) is going to be saved?

That would send your profit margin through the roof, better than all of the other airlines combined. Not.

Your figures are wrong.


Understand these are potential savings.. I am not saying that JB came up with ideas to save money flipped a switch and put 140 million into their pockets. What i am saying is that the company has established policies and procedures that could potentially save the company that amount.


Let me give you an example:

Lets say you have 100 planes.

For example lets say that you have 95 employees per plane and if you average the salaries of all areas of the company lets say the average salary per employee is $65,000.

That comes out to $617,500,000 in payroll.

As deliveries come in the company streamlines their employee base to a level that is similiar to Airtran ( Around 65) or Southwest (Around 80) but for simplicity sake lets use the same 100 airplane amount

Now take 80 employees per plane at $65,000 x 100 planes and you get $520,000,000 in payroll.

The hypothetical savings is approximately $97,500,000 per year. Now lets say that the company expands to 200 planes offset the additional salary expense as the workgroup matures and you can see that there is a potential yearly savings of 100 million or more.

Jetblue has a very lean operation but we are overstaffed in many places to deal with the rapid growth that jb has experienced over the last 6 years.

As for the 40 million I discussed above: JB is aiming for over 80% use of single engine taxi, We already use a lower Thrust Reduction Altitude, Enter Updated Winds into the MCDU, Fly at Optimum Altitudes when possible, Use of Flaps 3 for landings, Limit use of APU on ground, lowering min fuel at some airports when the weather is good we are even modifying the jetbridges to allow us to hook up the ground power prior to them being secured on the plane with the door open. That will alllow us to get the engine shut down down anywhere from 60-120 seconds sooner. At $10 per min at idle and a svings of $10-$20 per flt x 146,000 that alone could save nearly 3 million per year!

Now we have just over 400 flights per day..

Do the math that is about 146,000 flights per year

Take $40 million and divide it out and it is about $273 per flight or about 125 gallons of gas. Peanuts when you consider nearly 5000 gallons of burn on a transcon.

I take my hat off to JB We are all aware of where the legacies started out with the quest to save money..
 
oldxfr8dog said:
It's possible to get more than 12 days off, but you are using your vacation/sick time to do it. That's not exactly "off" is it?
The fact is, if you are a 3 year SWA f/o flying at least 85 hours, you will make the same pay as a JB reserve capt. You will have more days off, unless (oops, sorry! The bold slipped) you take vacation every month.
I am based in LGB and I have never bid reserve.
Please don't throw the "Well, it's your choice to be based there", bomb.

I'm glad you're happy.

Would a SWA person tell me if it's true that SWA reserves get 15 days off (and I don't mean using vacation/sick time) a month?

I've never worked at an airline where you could drop reserve days and get paid for it.

I just got back from a 4th party using a day off that I paid for...but I guess I wasn't really off because it came out of my bank time.

You were saying that a 3 year SWA FO has a better QOL than a 3 year Captain reserve captain here. I disagree. Now would I recommend JB over SWA right now? Nope, but my life certainly doesn't suck. Sorry yours does.
 
zonker said:
I've never worked at an airline where you could drop reserve days and get paid for it.

I just got back from a 4th party using a day off that I paid for...but I guess I wasn't really off because it came out of my bank time.

You were saying that a 3 year SWA FO has a better QOL than a 3 year Captain reserve captain here. I disagree.

If you worked for an airline and took vacation time, you have dropped reserve days and gotten paid for it.
All I'm saying is, you get 12 days off a month, not 15 or 16. If you call in sick or take vacation time, it's not the same as getting more days off. I'm glad you had fun at your 4 parties:beer: , but it cost you about $500 bucks in PTO time. If you want to your vacation 2 days a month, fine, but recognize it as such.
As far as QOL goes, the SWA f/o makes the same money and has many more days off. Sounds like a better QOL, to me. As previous SW poster said, even brand new reserve guys get 16 days off and a 95 hour guarantee.
My life doesn't suck, I just get a little wound up:0 ! And people making big decisions need facts about this stuff.
 
Last edited:
mdf said:
One pays cash for new airplanes..........The other sells new airplanes for cash.

I didn't realize SWA bought their planes with cash.........Anyway, JB is a great place to work and my friends at SWA love it as well. But, comparing the two is not quite an accurate assesment. JB is not the same airline nor are they trying to be...It took SWA 20 years to be the size of JB in 6. That is not a point of being "look how great we are compared to you", I hate those jackass comments. It is only to illustrate they are separate, and distinct companies that operate under different management styles and are trying to compete in the best realm that they can.

CD
 

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