JB pilots say no to alpa/Barely

[Blue Dude]

So union = bankruptcy. Got it.

 

[mejorgy]

OK, then, screw ALPA. Now that that's out of your system, what's your solution?

Blue Dude..... Do you find it humorous when guys as are willing to demonize ALPA but unwilling to offer a solution-any solution to the very real concerns which pertain to life as a professional pilot? Yeah....screw ALPA...that's a solution!

I have come across many of my JB colleagues over the past year who adamantly state the need for a union (CBA) but were not willing to vote yes in the election. I asked them, "So who should we elect to represent us"? Teamsters, TWU, how about the United Auto Workers? Hell...lets elect the Screen Actors Guild!!!! They have a decent contract. Fact of the matter is, I too am no fan of ALPA nor unions for that matter, but I am grossly aware that during these times of airline mergers, SLI integrations and not to mention my company's lack of accountability pertaining to changes to our work rules, retirement and the list goes on and on......................we as a professional group, NEED SOMETHING and ALPA was just about the only game in town! So ALPA it was and ALPA it wont be because 1193 view things differently than I do! Who's to say if an acquisition or merger occurs? In the end, we will see who is left standing and who will get steam rolled....if it ever happens!! (and it probably will)

True..... I started work for JB knowing what to expect. (No Union) But I think most guys who have been here 4 or more years will agree, this isn't the same JB it used to be! And for you playa-haters who say, "if you dont like it here, go somewhere else"! If a viable opportunity presents itself... I will leave. This is why I quote your remark versus the smart asses who are willing to say "screw Alpa" but not offer a plausible response or solution!

Hate Away.........................playa's

 

[Fins Up]

Blue Dude..... Do you find it humorous when guys as are willing to demonize ALPA but unwilling to offer a solution-any solution to the very real concerns which pertain to life as a professional pilot? Yeah....screw ALPA...that's a solution!

I have come across many of my JB colleagues over the past year who adamantly state the need for a union (CBA) but were not willing to vote yes in the election. I asked them, "So who should we elect to represent us"? Teamsters, TWU, how about the United Auto Workers? Hell...lets elect the Screen Actors Guild!!!! They have a decent contract. Fact of the matter is, I too am no fan of ALPA nor unions for that matter, but I am grossly aware that during these times of airline mergers, SLI integrations and not to mention my company's lack of accountability pertaining to changes to our work rules, retirement and the list goes on and on......................we as a professional group, NEED SOMETHING and ALPA was just about the only game in town! So ALPA it was and ALPA it wont be because 1193 view things differently than I do! Who's to say if an acquisition or merger occurs? In the end, we will see who is left standing and who will get steam rolled....if it ever happens!! (and it probably will)

True..... I started work for JB knowing what to expect. (No Union) But I think most guys who have been here 4 or more years will agree, this isn't the same JB it used to be! And for you playa-haters who say, "if you dont like it here, go somewhere else"! If a viable opportunity presents itself... I will leave. This is why I quote your remark versus the smart asses who are willing to say "screw Alpa" but not offer a plausible response or solution!

Hate Away.........................playa's

I think you missed bluedude's sarcasm. I believe he wants a cba, ALPA or otherwise, as much as the rest of us yes-voters do.

 

[Ski-N-Fly]

When has a union done that at an airline going BK or out of business? BTW Airline and secure career in the same sentence? Isn't that an oxymoran?

Perhaps it is an oxymoron, but you didn't answer my question. You merely asked another question. To answer your question, no union can utlimately prevent an airline from BK or from going out of business. I never implied this. Perhaps I should re-phrase my original question......

How do you propose we secure (and protect) our careers (as best as we can) without representation and a CBA?

 

[Flyby1206]

Be better than the competition. That's the only way to guarantee success. Union or not

 

[pilotyip]

So union = bankruptcy. Got it.

I don't think so? I was posting they can not prevent BK nor can they preserve jobs or benefits in a failing environment.

 

[Turbosnake03]

Be better than the competition. That's the only way to guarantee success. Union or not

someone gets it !!!!

 

[mejorgy]

I think you missed bluedude's sarcasm. I believe he wants a cba, ALPA or otherwise, as much as the rest of us yes-voters do.

Oh.....I know!! I would rather respond to Blue Dude versus responding to the mindless, useless nonsense of the "screw ALPA" indigents. I think Blue Dude and I are on the same page. As are many others.

 

[pilotyip]

Perhaps it is an oxymoron, but you didn't answer my question. You merely asked another question. To answer your question, no union can utlimately prevent an airline from BK or from going out of business. I never implied this. Perhaps I should re-phrase my original question......

How do you propose we secure (and protect) our careers (as best as we can) without representation and a CBA?

as per above "Be better than the rest", but unions often forget about this and become involved in the "Whats in it for me" remember this is coming from a former union guy. With two dead airlines under his belt

 

[Blue Dude]

I don't think so? I was posting they can not prevent BK nor can they preserve jobs or benefits in a failing environment.

Then you answered a question that wasn't asked (and in the process tried to imply a correlation between unions and airline bankruptcy). No union can prevent bad management from being bad management. But a CBA can mitigate the consequences of adverse decisions or circumstances, even if that mitigation is merely a court-enforced procedure to integrate two lists or spell out furlough procedures. Mitigate <> ironclad protection, and nobody is saying it is.

 

[Blue Dude]

Be better than the competition. That's the only way to guarantee success. Union or not

Nice glib, tidy answer, and true in a general sense, right up until the point where corporate or shareholder interests no longer align with pilot interests. e.g. a merger, acquisition, code share, downsize, fragmentation, divestment, et al. Then success is "guaranteed" for who? Probably not the pilots, who have no say in the matter. A CBA will not prevent any of those things, but if drafted carefully would protect the pilots from being left by the wayside and provide a mechanism for recognizing the pilots' stake and mitigating (there's that word again) any adverse impact.

 

[Ski-N-Fly]

as per above "Be better than the rest", but unions often forget about this and become involved in the "Whats in it for me" remember this is coming from a former union guy. With two dead airlines under his belt

I'm all for being better than the competition, but this is a blanket statement. One can disect this in many ways. A company can be better in finances, route structure, ticket pricing, customer service, paint schemes, keeping labor costs down, outsourcing for cheaper labor, giving it's managers industry leading bonuses, laying off front line employees to stay afloat, etc, etc. But when it comes to an airline pilot's career, success for the company does not always guarantee a secure and protected career for it's pilots. Can't the "what's in it for me" mentality also be applied to management?

I see your point, Yip, but your past experiences with your previous unions, management teams, and pilot groups do not necessarily reflect what exists with this pilot group. Nor does it mean that this pilot group has a "what's in it for me" mentality. I am not trying to shove a union down your throat, but I honestly think this pilot group is walkng a high wire without a net. I'm not saying ALPA is the answer, nor am I saying our management is evil. But we simply don't have the protections in place (legal, medical, retirement, etc, etc) to provide for a safe and prosperous career. This is my opinion, and may not be the same as yours, but I am just trying to stimulate conversation on the topic. Without a CBA, we can not legally separate ourselves from the other employee groups when it comes to issues such as medical, retirement, etc. There are pilots on the property who have been left to fend for themselves when it comes to legal and medical issues. I believe we need a system of checks and balances, not only to protect our pilots, but to protect our entire company. A CBA is currently the only system where both sides have to be held accountable and abide by the same rules.....thereby providing a legal system of checks and balances.

If you're in an incident or accident, and the company decides they will not provide you with an attorney (this has happened at bluejet), then what do you do next? If you have a medical issue with the FAA, and the company decides not to provide you with the proper resources to pursue a solution (this has happened at bluejet), then where do you go for help? My point is that in the end, each one of us is on our own. We can hope the company will come through for us, but there are specific examples of this not being the case.

I think we all want what is best for our families, but it's obvious we need to come together and figure out how to go about making sure we can accomplish this. This is a business, not just for the company, but for it's pilots as well. When making important business decisions, logic can be far more beneficial to the outcome than emotion. Just sayin. Regardless, we are all in this together.

 

[n757st]

This is the fact..... If JBPA were on the ballet it would have passed. This was not an endorsement of the DR, nor a condemnation of a CBA. It was anti ALPA vote, plain and simple.

 

[Caveman]

This is the fact..... If JBPA were on the ballet it would have passed. This was not an endorsement of the DR, nor a condemnation of a CBA. It was anti ALPA vote, plain and simple.

That's not a fact. It's just your opinion.

BTW, JBPA was in fact available on the ballot. All you had to do was vote yes and write in JBPA. If all the alleged anti-ALPA voters had done that the JBPA would now be our bargaining agent. The truth is they didn't do that even though it was an available and viable option. So I can only conclude that the anti-ALPA rationale is simply an attempt to ease guilty consciences. They could have voted for JBPA, but they didn't.

 

[n757st]

That's not a fact. It's just your opinion.

BTW, JBPA was in fact available on the ballot. All you had to do was vote yes and write in JBPA. If all the alleged anti-ALPA voters had done that the JBPA would now be our bargaining agent. The truth is they didn't do that even though it was an available and viable option. So I can only conclude that the anti-ALPA rationale is simply an attempt to ease guilty consciences. They could have voted for JBPA, but they didn't.

By writing in JBPA it was a vote for ALPA. You are right, it is opinion not fact.

 

[Lake Alice]

The whole argument is moot at this point.

As per the conference call yesterday with Maruster the DR is now in charge. New committees will now be formed to study the relationship between the pilot group and management. The PVC has to be re-evaluated and possibly redefined. Retirement is "at the top of their list" to address but it won't be discussed until the PVC structure has been completed, elections have been completed, benefits enrollment has been completed, a committee formed to study the disparity in benefits has been completed. IMHO their is absolutely no rush to bring Jetblue pilots to an industry standard retirement.

Now my truly honest opinion. The pieces of sh!t who voted no have saddled us with a relationship that is absolutely, positively controlled by management. We have no recourse, no ability to negotiate and no chance of EVER getting an industry standard benefits and retirement package. The company heres us "loud and clear" but that doesn't mean SH!T. Look at the applicants and the pilots being hired. We are not attracting the quality pilots we need and that corresponds directly to direction our company has taken.

 

[Skank]

Seems a little over the top to indict all new hires as lacking quality, and anyone who didn't want ALPA as a POS. Maybe you should take a step back.

 

[pilotyip]

We are not attracting the quality pilots we need and that corresponds directly to direction our company has taken.

Knowing a few that went there, I find this surprising. Could a quality pilot only be a pro-union pilot? If I am wrong please define quality pilot?

 

[Lake Alice]

The failure rate or requirement for additional training is above 10% and the school house admits it's a reflection of the quality of our new hires.

I don't have a mil retirement and the 5% we receive isn't helping much either. Keep in mind our peer set receives 13-16% guaranteed on a monthly basis. As someone who does relatively well with my retirement planning I can tell you our retirement is a joke and not nearly enough. I can also tell you that without a CBA our retirement isn't changing. First, the operating budget for the pilots is fixed and second, without the CBA jetblue can't legally separate us. So, yes, if you voted no you are a POS because a CBA was our only avenue to fix the retirement issue.

 

[$$$4nothin]

The whole argument is moot at this point.

As per the conference call yesterday with Maruster the DR is now in charge. New committees will now be formed to study the relationship between the pilot group and management. The PVC has to be re-evaluated and possibly redefined. Retirement is "at the top of their list" to address but it won't be discussed until the PVC structure has been completed, elections have been completed, benefits enrollment has been completed, a committee formed to study the disparity in benefits has been completed. IMHO their is absolutely no rush to bring Jetblue pilots to an industry standard retirement.

Now my truly honest opinion. The pieces of sh!t who voted no have saddled us with a relationship that is absolutely, positively controlled by management. We have no recourse, no ability to negotiate and no chance of EVER getting an industry standard benefits and retirement package. The company heres us "loud and clear" but that doesn't mean SH!T. Look at the applicants and the pilots being hired. We are not attracting the quality pilots we need and that corresponds directly to direction our company has taken.

As a recent new hire I am going to assume you are just ranting and am not going to take this coment personally. As I am going to be spending a lot of time in JFK in the near future on reserve I would be more than happy to meet up with you and after we have a beer or two you can make these statements if you still feel the same way.

I can assure you that the recent new hires want the same things you do. Not to mention anyone hired on July 13 (My class) or after was not able to vote anyway so how could you possibly blame us for anything other than trying to better our careers.

One more thing. If you don't have the balls to call the guy sitting next to you a POS to his face don't get on a message board and do it. It doesn't make you a tough guy.

 

[$$$4nothin]

The failure rate or requirement for additional training is above 10% and the school house admits it's a reflection of the quality of our new hires.

So, yes, if you voted no you are a POS because a CBA was our only avenue to fix the retirement issue.

I just left the school house and of the 11 guys in our class not a single guy failed. So I am not sure where you are getting your info, but it is not correct. Nor did anyone from the two classes prior to mine.

Again. If you don't have the balls to call someone a POS to there face, doing so on a message board only hurts your ability to convince anyone of your point of view on a message board.

If you are relying on an airline retirement to support your years between 65-100 whether it be 5% or 20% match you should probably reevaluate your retirement plans. Just some advice givin to me from a couple thousand current airline pilots that WERE getting better retirements than we ever will.

 

[Lake Alice]

I have no problem calling anyone a POS to their face so don't worry about that.

Next time you are down in the school house ask them about the failure/retest rate. Re-read the post. 10%!!! not everyone in every class is failing. Some classes have no issues at all. Some of the pilots being hired are simply not qualified. This is not an attack on anyone specifically but it is a reflection of the candidates applying.

 

[Lake Alice]

I just left the school house and of the 11 guys in our class not a single guy failed. So I am not sure where you are getting your info, but it is not correct. Nor did anyone from the two classes prior to mine.

Again. If you don't have the balls to call someone a POS to there face, doing so on a message board only hurts your ability to convince anyone of your point of view on a message board.

If you are relying on an airline retirement to support your years between 65-100 whether it be 5% or 20% match you should probably reevaluate your retirement plans. Just some advice givin to me from a couple thousand current airline pilots that WERE getting better retirements than we ever will.

Any airline pilot who was relying on their airline pension had no reason to think it would not be there upon retirement. There was no historical precedent for an airline pilot to lose their entire pension. If you aren't relying on some sort of match from your employer then realize you won't have enough to retire. This is not so suggest relying on a pension but rather greater contributions to your 401K or a B-fund. Also a 401K and a B-fund cannot be taken from you in the event of a bankruptcy.
This was one of the major issues during the ALPA campaign. For some reason many of our pilots do not understand retirement or simply do not care.

 

[Flyby1206]

I have no problem calling anyone a POS to their face so don't worry about that.

Next time you are down in the school house ask them about the failure/retest rate. Re-read the post. 10%!!! not everyone in every class is failing. Some classes have no issues at all. Some of the pilots being hired are simply not qualified. This is not an attack on anyone specifically but it is a reflection of the candidates applying.

So are you saying that the stellar Airbus Company training you received way back in the day was top notch A+? From what I have heard, it was a joke and people were just tossed the books and learned the important stuff once they were online. Since then the training department has become more structured. Along with this comes defined pass/fail standards as opposed to the wink/nudge of the good ole days when the company first started.

10% re-train is not an astronomical number in my opinion, but what would be 'acceptable' to you? It is pretty sad that you badmouth the newhires for the failure of ALPA when in fact most of us couldnt even vote.

 

[Lake Alice]

Wow, I'm not exactly sure how you derive ALPA as the source of training failures at Jetblue from my post. Not having a CBA is directly relatable to the failure of our retirement package. We are above the training failure benchmark for the industry. This is a fact. And yes our training was horrible back in the day.

 

[n757st]

Wow, I'm not exactly sure how you derive ALPA as the source of training failures at Jetblue from my post. Not having a CBA is directly relatable to the failure of our retirement package. We are above the training failure benchmark for the industry. This is a fact. And yes our training was horrible back in the day.

Almost all the training failures have been very high time furloughed guys and guys with low time in glass/high automation. Most have been older. Believe it or not very very very few regional/ fractional guys are unsuccessful at our program. Just fyi. I think we can all agree the training at jetBlue is VERY fair.

 

[pilot22]

The failure rate or requirement for additional training is above 10% and the school house admits it's a reflection of the quality of our new hires. QUOTE]

Well food for thought, perhaps it's the training department and not the pilot.
Most flight training departments struggle with standardization. I know for a fact there were changes in the E190 training department

 

[Otto77]

Most of the issues I noticed in training had more to do with instructors that have never flown the line or the aircraft before teaching at JB. All the guys in my class were highly qualified....each could have easily been hired at the legacies if they were currently hiring.

 

[sbav8r]

Deleted...

 

[Whiskerbizkit]

There is a little truth to both sides. When we started hiring instructors, a lot have never flown the bus and also did not have a lot of flying experence, the FAA came down hard on JB for that because they were teaching wrong. On the pilot hiring side, yes we did hire guys that did not have a lot of flying experence. I just flew with one of our senior line CA that does interviews and he told me the pissing match he had with HR,CP with their final eval after the interviews with the people they wanted and he wanted...all the ones they wanted did not have much experence and they wanted to give them a "try". He said there was a lot of re-training goin on.