It's official. Pinnacle mgt asking for 5% paycut for pilots

[FOrever85]

Flyer,

Give it a rest.

Delta/Northwest was going to smash us together no matter what. They came up with that plan before you were even hired. So, you, hawk, and every other person still spouting this "If this merger never had happened I would be......" STOP.

THERE IS AND NEVER WAS ANOTHER OPTION!!! THIS IS WHAT WAS GOING TO HAPPEN!! IT HAPPENED. GET OVER IT!

Now on to the topic at hand;

Just say no.

Bankruptcy wasn't that bad last time, I'm ready to do it again.

Actually, we don't need to worry General Lee was suppose to tell me how we can scope all our Delta flying so we won't lose any of it.
Please General tell us poor regional folks how to stay out of bankruptcy.

 

[altimaklr]

Ahh another regional FO who thinks he's a business guru

 

[Flyer1015]

Flyer,

Give it a rest.

Delta/Northwest was going to smash us together no matter what. They came up with that plan before you were even hired. So, you, hawk, and every other person still spouting this "If this merger never had happened I would be......" STOP.

THERE IS AND NEVER WAS ANOTHER OPTION!!! THIS IS WHAT WAS GOING TO HAPPEN!! IT HAPPENED. GET OVER IT!

Now on to the topic at hand;

Just say no.

Bankruptcy wasn't that bad last time, I'm ready to do it again.

Actually, we don't need to worry General Lee was suppose to tell me how we can scope all our Delta flying so we won't lose any of it.
Please General tell us poor regional folks how to stay out of bankruptcy.

Actually, NWA and Delta didn't even merge until 2008, and I was hired well before that time. My original binders still say "Northwest Airlink." And bankruptcy wasn't "that bad last time" sentiment better dissipate quick, or you're in for a bad surprise.

 

[altimaklr]

It's no use flyer. Some XJ still have a superiority complex about themselves and NW/DL, and will never admit their pilot group was 6 months away from being the next comair before pinnacle bought them.

 

[xjhawk]

flyer..I was hired in 2003. and MEsaba is not the reason for pinnacles mismanagement. I do not blame the fine pinnacle pilots that I know.....I may not like the idiots who hate and blame the mesaba pilots....but I do not blame the pilots. There is a big difference between you and me, I am not blaming the pinnacle pilots as you do to us.

And as for you ALTMAKLR, you think MEsaba would have been worse off if we were not bought by Pinnacle? You are crazy. okay so we would have furloughed and there would have been some down grades. Then we would have rebid for more flying somewhere. Oh wait, there will most likely be furloughs if we lose crj 200's and down grades. What is the big difference? Well all but the top 1/4 of mesaba did not fair well on the SLI. those in my group 01-04 hires lost a lot. If we lose 50 seaters and go down to a 900 and Q fleet, I will be a JR FO at best with my new ALPA ized seniority at Pinnacle while if we were not Pinnacle and I had my pre ALPA/BLOCK seniority, I would have been a downgraded captain to a SEnior FO in my home town with a look to upgrading when the flows started again. but.....we will never know...

 

[Flyprdu]

you think MEsaba would have been worse off if we were not bought by Pinnacle? You are crazy. okay so we would have furloughed and there would have been some down grades.

This is the funniest response I've ever read. I didn't know they let schizophrenics fly airplanes. Oh and XJHawk, there is nothing stopping you from downgrading yourself now. Go spend some time with the kiddos.

There's a lot of finger pointing going on in this thread, I might as well join in.

Here's who I blame:

• Pinnacle management for having no ideas.
• Mesaba management for having only terrible, stupid, and costly ideas.
• Phil Trenary for pointing the plane at the ground and pulling the eject handle. "Your controls."
• Don Breeding for spending more time on the golf course than putting out the flames at the company.
• Sean Menke for letting the union run the integration with little or no regard for the bottom line. Only now when they realized they're broke is he intervening. Too little, too late. You can't have my paycheck.
• Mesaba's MEC for being rigid and inflexible in creating an integration plan. And whipping up some dumb*ss ideas, like 11-09. What better way to kill a regional airline than to flush the whole d*mn seniority system. Way to go, guys. Way to go.
• Mesaba in general. If it had been profitable to Delta, then they wouldn't have wanted to spin you off. Mesaba was, and still is, an obvious drain to whichever parent company owns it.
• Phil Trenary again. It was pure ego and hubris of Nonconnah that made them think they could save the Saabs. They thought they could do anything. Boy, they were wrong.
• Pinnacle's negotiating team. First for proposing a stupid, lopsided plan. Second, for not having their crap together. Third, for thinking that arbitration was a good idea. And last, for not fighting back when the fences were awarded so disproportionately. But hey, vacations are important too.
• All the Colgan pilots with shiny jet syndrome who decided to overload the training department by crossing over. I hope that extra 5 bucks/hr in the CRJ was worth a 5% giveback and a Chapter 11 filing.

Did I leave anyone out?

 

[CRJ200pilot]

I just quit!

Merry Christmas

 

[FOrever85]

Ahh another regional FO who thinks he's a business guru

Sweet, every single word in your reply was wrong.

"It's no use flyer. Some XJ still have a superiority complex about themselves and NW/DL, and will never admit their pilot group was 6 months away from being the next comair before pinnacle bought them. "


Superiority complex?

We've been getting the crapped kicked out of us for the majority of the decade. The simple fact remains; we were going to be merged together. Doesn't take a business guru to figure that one out.

Sorry you can't deal with reality.

Pinnacle (and I mean that collectively) will probably be the next Comair.

You think it is just a coincidence that you got sent out to JFK?

JFK: the base Delta sends regional airlines to die.

 

[FOrever85]

Actually, NWA and Delta didn't even merge until 2008, and I was hired well before that time. My original binders still say "Northwest Airlink." And bankruptcy wasn't "that bad last time" sentiment better dissipate quick, or you're in for a bad surprise.

Yeah, but they came up with all this s*&t in 05, (Coincidence that XJ was in bankruptcy too, I think not.)

And what bad surprise is that?

I've been through this crap for 12 years. I'm really not jumping on you, I'm trying to tell all of you to relax. I got all upset during the last bankruptcy and you know what? It was a huge waste of time.

This whole thing is going to take a while, and frankly there isn't much you or I can do about it.

 

[Smarta$$]

This is the funniest response I've ever read. I didn't know they let schizophrenics fly airplanes. Oh and XJHawk, there is nothing stopping you from downgrading yourself now. Go spend some time with the kiddos.

There's a lot of finger pointing going on in this thread, I might as well join in.

Here's who I blame:

• Pinnacle management for having no ideas.
• Mesaba management for having only terrible, stupid, and costly ideas.
• Phil Trenary for pointing the plane at the ground and pulling the eject handle. "Your controls."
• Don Breeding for spending more time on the golf course than putting out the flames at the company.
• Sean Menke for letting the union run the integration with little or no regard for the bottom line. Only now when they realized they're broke is he intervening. Too little, too late. You can't have my paycheck.
• Mesaba's MEC for being rigid and inflexible in creating an integration plan. And whipping up some dumb*ss ideas, like 11-09. What better way to kill a regional airline than to flush the whole d*mn seniority system. Way to go, guys. Way to go.
• Mesaba in general. If it had been profitable to Delta, then they wouldn't have wanted to spin you off. Mesaba was, and still is, an obvious drain to whichever parent company owns it.
• Phil Trenary again. It was pure ego and hubris of Nonconnah that made them think they could save the Saabs. They thought they could do anything. Boy, they were wrong.
• Pinnacle's negotiating team. First for proposing a stupid, lopsided plan. Second, for not having their crap together. Third, for thinking that arbitration was a good idea. And last, for not fighting back when the fences were awarded so disproportionately. But hey, vacations are important too.
• All the Colgan pilots with shiny jet syndrome who decided to overload the training department by crossing over. I hope that extra 5 bucks/hr in the CRJ was worth a 5% giveback and a Chapter 11 filing.

Did I leave anyone out?

Interesting read. But, your list is too biased against mesaba, and ignores 9E pilots failures throughout the process. 9E management and 9E pilots are primarily to blame... The original management, not Sean so much.

 

[jynxyjericho]

This is the funniest response I've ever read. I didn't know they let schizophrenics fly airplanes. Oh and XJHawk, there is nothing stopping you from downgrading yourself now. Go spend some time with the kiddos.

There's a lot of finger pointing going on in this thread, I might as well join in.

Here's who I blame:

• Pinnacle management for having no ideas.
• Mesaba management for having only terrible, stupid, and costly ideas.
• Phil Trenary for pointing the plane at the ground and pulling the eject handle. "Your controls."
• Don Breeding for spending more time on the golf course than putting out the flames at the company.
• Sean Menke for letting the union run the integration with little or no regard for the bottom line. Only now when they realized they're broke is he intervening. Too little, too late. You can't have my paycheck.
• Mesaba's MEC for being rigid and inflexible in creating an integration plan. And whipping up some dumb*ss ideas, like 11-09. What better way to kill a regional airline than to flush the whole d*mn seniority system. Way to go, guys. Way to go.
• Mesaba in general. If it had been profitable to Delta, then they wouldn't have wanted to spin you off. Mesaba was, and still is, an obvious drain to whichever parent company owns it.
• Phil Trenary again. It was pure ego and hubris of Nonconnah that made them think they could save the Saabs. They thought they could do anything. Boy, they were wrong.
• Pinnacle's negotiating team. First for proposing a stupid, lopsided plan. Second, for not having their crap together. Third, for thinking that arbitration was a good idea. And last, for not fighting back when the fences were awarded so disproportionately. But hey, vacations are important too.
• All the Colgan pilots with shiny jet syndrome who decided to overload the training department by crossing over. I hope that extra 5 bucks/hr in the CRJ was worth a 5% giveback and a Chapter 11 filing.

Did I leave anyone out?

Fairly faulty logic on many arguments here, but most notably the one highlighted. You will find proof of the opposite in your own SEC filings pre-Menke.

When you are a money loser, like Comair, you can't get sold. ASA, Mesaba, (under NW) Pinnacle, all were sold because they made money.

Wish I had the energy to go point by point on this but my second favorite part of this post is when you complain about Mesaba MEC(or something, it's hard to follow your rants) flushing seniority WHILE bitching about Colgan pilots holding positions on aircraft their seniority allows for. You are hurting for a day off and a beer.

 

[Flyprdu]

... my second favorite part of this post is when you complain about Mesaba MEC(or something, it's hard to follow your rants because I'm an idiot) flushing seniority WHILE bitching about Colgan pilots holding positions on aircraft their seniority allows for...

It's one and the same. The XJ MEC opened Pandora's Box by offering what essentially amounted to a dump and flush. 700 training events. 25% of the pilot group will be making some sort of change in the next 9 months. And I blame opportunistic Colgan pilots who switched for a variety of reasons, none of them essential, for pushing the cost of training events over the edge.

I don't know what you would call this plan, but whatever it is... it sure ain't smart.

 

[jynxyjericho]

You're right, my argument is unprincipled and I have different standards for every pilot at this company depending how it effects me. Basically I'm pissed at the SLI and the fences and I think everyone should have the forethought to hang back on doing anything that improves their QOL/pay until I am done improving my own QOL and pay. I'm confused why you or anyone would see a problem with this. me me me me me

Nicely done changing my quote on that earlier post.

 

[Flyprdu]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flyprdu
You're right, my argument is unprincipled and I have different standards for every pilot at this company depending how it effects me. Basically I'm pissed at the SLI and the fences and I think everyone should have the forethought to hang back on doing anything that improves their QOL/pay until I am done improving my own QOL and pay. I'm confused why you or anyone would see a problem with this. me me me me me

Nicely done changing my quote on that earlier post. Nicely done changing my quote on that earlier post.

SLI was an abortion. Yes. And a part of it is about QOL, as I was displaced back to FO to make room for Colgan pilots.

But it goes beyond that now. The idiotic idea of a multi-class bid is now affecting the future health and well-being of this company. How many displacements? How many thousands of hotel rooms needlessly booked? How many training events? How many thousands of hours of pilots pulled off the line? For what? So that the rights of senior pilots must be preserved at all costs... even if it jeopardizes the health of the company.

You guys can't see the forest through the trees, sometimes.

 

[titans10]

Thats's how a bid goes. You bid for what you want(What you can hold). Yes, It effects everyone on a list. It happens at Majors, Regionals, and Cargo carriers. If you get displaced out of a seat or base that is life.

 

[FOrever85]

SLI was an abortion. Yes. And a part of it is about QOL, as I was displaced back to FO to make room for Colgan pilots.

But it goes beyond that now. The idiotic idea of a multi-class bid is now affecting the future health and well-being of this company. How many displacements? How many thousands of hotel rooms needlessly booked? How many training events? How many thousands of hours of pilots pulled off the line? For what? So that the rights of senior pilots must be preserved at all costs... even if it jeopardizes the health of the company.

You guys can't see the forest through the trees, sometimes.

You crack me up.

Re-alignments are part of mergers. They knew that. Why you don't, I don't really know.

The really funny part of your posts (or I should say ironic) is your repeated reference to multi-class bids.

If you really are getting downgraded, there is a reason you should be mad about multi-class bids, but it doesn't have anything to do with costing the company money. (the opposite really)

hint: The multi-class bid on the 11-09 re-alignment alone saved the company about $2.5 million.

Maybe you should call a union rep and have them explain all this before your next post.

 

[Flyprdu]

hint: The multi-class bid on the 11-09 re-alignment alone saved the company about $2.5 million.

This is a bullsh*t sales pitch. Saved $2.5 million? Compared to what? An even longer, drawn-out waste of money?

There were much more efficient plans that could have been implemented. We could have just absorbed the displacements. Menke was begging for it. You guys are so blind to reality and so proud for thinking up your dump and flush method.. that you don't realize that it's breaking the company.

But it's almost as if you don't give a sh*t. It's like Mesaba and Colgan pilots have moved into Pinnacle's house, and Pinnacle pilots are standing around open-mouthed and shocked at how completely destructive you all have been.

 

[jynxyjericho]

You crack me up.

Re-alignments are part of mergers. They knew that. Why you don't, I don't really know.

The really funny part of your posts (or I should say ironic) is your repeated reference to multi-class bids.

If you really are getting downgraded, there is a reason you should be mad about multi-class bids, but it doesn't have anything to do with costing the company money. (the opposite really)

hint: The multi-class bid on the 11-09 re-alignment alone saved the company about $2.5 million.

Maybe you should call a union rep and have them explain all this before your next post.

You crack me up.

Re-alignments are part of mergers. They knew that. Why you don't, I don't really know.

The really funny part of your posts (or I should say ironic) is your repeated reference to multi-class bids.

If you really are getting downgraded, there is a reason you should be mad about multi-class bids, but it doesn't have anything to do with costing the company money. (the opposite really)

hint: The multi-class bid on the 11-09 re-alignment alone saved the company about $2.5 million.

Maybe you should call a union rep and have them explain all this before your next post.

I had heard (don't think I ever saw in print) it was closer to a four million in savings. Either way you are correct the multi-class did save money for the company.

SLI was an abortion. Yes. And a part of it is about QOL, as I was displaced back to FO to make room for Colgan pilots.

But it goes beyond that now. The idiotic idea of a multi-class bid is now affecting the future health and well-being of this company. How many displacements? How many thousands of hotel rooms needlessly booked? How many training events? How many thousands of hours of pilots pulled off the line? For what? So that the rights of senior pilots must be preserved at all costs... even if it jeopardizes the health of the company.

You guys can't see the forest through the trees, sometimes.

Firstly it's forest FOR the trees, not through.

SLI SLI SLI. God is there an echo in here?
From what I can see in the 11-09, and keep in mind I only went through a couple of pages, there would have been a lot less moving around if the SLI had been merged in a DOH scenario. I would go so far as to say that a DOH SLI would have saved us so much money we wouldn't be taking pay cuts (not because it's true but, like you, reality be damned). If your real intent is to save the company money and list all the things that went wrong you should include JH on the list for not agreeing to DOH.

There, everyone get in and gripe about the SLI even though we can't change it. It's Festivus, everyone air their greivances! Nothing will change, and we won't feel better, but do it anyway because it's worth our time!

This isn't our last merger (in our career) Prdu, have some dignity. We can't go back and change the SLI, the fences, or wipe away 11-09. The SLI is complete and it's binding. While I may pretend otherwise on this post (for your benefit), I think it's all time we moved past the SLI and focused our blame where it belongs, on the French.

On a side note, I'm willing to give up 5% of my pay if I get 5 minutes alone with Phil Trenary for running us into the ground. If Menke can arrange that and my pardon from any later court proceedings I'll sign the papers today.

 

[Flyprdu]

Firstly it's forest FOR the trees, not through.

Really? This is what you're reduced to? Wow. Even though "through the trees" is an accepted alternative idiom. Don't be such a prick. :smash:

If your real intent is to save the company money and list all the things that went wrong you should include JH on the list for not agreeing to DOH.

Read my list again.

Nothing will change, and we won't feel better, but do it anyway because it's worth our time!

Unfortunately, you hear this "nothing to see here" encouraged resignation a lot from your side. Make sure no one will make waves and let us continue about our business.. which happens to be burning the company to the ground.

We can't go back and change the SLI, the fences, or wipe away 11-09. The SLI is complete and it's binding.

This is where you lose me. Bloch's only purpose was to develop a seniority list. He did that. It's up to us to figure out a way to implement it. Now this is where Mesaba pilots' heads explode: We could have implemented integration any way we wanted, including allowing displacements to be absorbed..*gasp* out of seniority order!!
You make it sound like Richard K. Bloch. esq. sits on the Supreme Court. He's just an arbitrator.. and we, as Pinnacle corp, could disregard his finding if we all came to an amicable agreement ourselves. But that requires grown-ups... and well, this is ALPA, afterall.

 

[FOrever85]

This is a bullsh*t sales pitch. Saved $2.5 million? Compared to what? An even longer, drawn-out waste of money?

There were much more efficient plans that could have been implemented. We could have just absorbed the displacements. Menke was begging for it. You guys are so blind to reality and so proud for thinking up your dump and flush method.. that you don't realize that it's breaking the company.

But it's almost as if you don't give a sh*t. It's like Mesaba and Colgan pilots have moved into Pinnacle's house, and Pinnacle pilots are standing around open-mouthed and shocked at how completely destructive you all have been.

Oh no, someone didn't call their union rep.

Yes, according to displacement language in OUR/YOUR contract it would have been a much longer process. Here's the crazy part, displacement language from your old contract is the same as the new one. (Sorry for the facts, I can tell you like making XJ pilots out to be the bad guys)

F^&k it, I'll spell it out for you. A multi-class bid prevented multiple training events. (yourself included.. Ah irony!) SO YES IT SAVED THE COMPANY A LOT OF MONEY. OUR union didn't have to do it. They did it to save the company money.

The irony you keep missing, (which is hilarious for me) is the money they are saving is coming directly from you. They are saving money by downgrading you faster. So literally, the jokes on you!

But hey, why deal in contracts, seniority, and facts. Let's just pull s*&t out of our ass like your idea.


P.S. Your last sentence was really funny.