It's official. Pinnacle mgt asking for 5% paycut for pilots

[jynxyjericho]

This is the funniest response I've ever read. I didn't know they let schizophrenics fly airplanes. Oh and XJHawk, there is nothing stopping you from downgrading yourself now. Go spend some time with the kiddos.

There's a lot of finger pointing going on in this thread, I might as well join in.

Here's who I blame:

• Pinnacle management for having no ideas.
• Mesaba management for having only terrible, stupid, and costly ideas.
• Phil Trenary for pointing the plane at the ground and pulling the eject handle. "Your controls."
• Don Breeding for spending more time on the golf course than putting out the flames at the company.
• Sean Menke for letting the union run the integration with little or no regard for the bottom line. Only now when they realized they're broke is he intervening. Too little, too late. You can't have my paycheck.
• Mesaba's MEC for being rigid and inflexible in creating an integration plan. And whipping up some dumb*ss ideas, like 11-09. What better way to kill a regional airline than to flush the whole d*mn seniority system. Way to go, guys. Way to go.
• Mesaba in general. If it had been profitable to Delta, then they wouldn't have wanted to spin you off. Mesaba was, and still is, an obvious drain to whichever parent company owns it.
• Phil Trenary again. It was pure ego and hubris of Nonconnah that made them think they could save the Saabs. They thought they could do anything. Boy, they were wrong.
• Pinnacle's negotiating team. First for proposing a stupid, lopsided plan. Second, for not having their crap together. Third, for thinking that arbitration was a good idea. And last, for not fighting back when the fences were awarded so disproportionately. But hey, vacations are important too.
• All the Colgan pilots with shiny jet syndrome who decided to overload the training department by crossing over. I hope that extra 5 bucks/hr in the CRJ was worth a 5% giveback and a Chapter 11 filing.

Did I leave anyone out?

Fairly faulty logic on many arguments here, but most notably the one highlighted. You will find proof of the opposite in your own SEC filings pre-Menke.

When you are a money loser, like Comair, you can't get sold. ASA, Mesaba, (under NW) Pinnacle, all were sold because they made money.

Wish I had the energy to go point by point on this but my second favorite part of this post is when you complain about Mesaba MEC(or something, it's hard to follow your rants) flushing seniority WHILE bitching about Colgan pilots holding positions on aircraft their seniority allows for. You are hurting for a day off and a beer.

 

[Flyprdu]

... my second favorite part of this post is when you complain about Mesaba MEC(or something, it's hard to follow your rants because I'm an idiot) flushing seniority WHILE bitching about Colgan pilots holding positions on aircraft their seniority allows for...

It's one and the same. The XJ MEC opened Pandora's Box by offering what essentially amounted to a dump and flush. 700 training events. 25% of the pilot group will be making some sort of change in the next 9 months. And I blame opportunistic Colgan pilots who switched for a variety of reasons, none of them essential, for pushing the cost of training events over the edge.

I don't know what you would call this plan, but whatever it is... it sure ain't smart.

 

[jynxyjericho]

You're right, my argument is unprincipled and I have different standards for every pilot at this company depending how it effects me. Basically I'm pissed at the SLI and the fences and I think everyone should have the forethought to hang back on doing anything that improves their QOL/pay until I am done improving my own QOL and pay. I'm confused why you or anyone would see a problem with this. me me me me me

Nicely done changing my quote on that earlier post.

 

[Flyprdu]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flyprdu
You're right, my argument is unprincipled and I have different standards for every pilot at this company depending how it effects me. Basically I'm pissed at the SLI and the fences and I think everyone should have the forethought to hang back on doing anything that improves their QOL/pay until I am done improving my own QOL and pay. I'm confused why you or anyone would see a problem with this. me me me me me

Nicely done changing my quote on that earlier post. Nicely done changing my quote on that earlier post.

SLI was an abortion. Yes. And a part of it is about QOL, as I was displaced back to FO to make room for Colgan pilots.

But it goes beyond that now. The idiotic idea of a multi-class bid is now affecting the future health and well-being of this company. How many displacements? How many thousands of hotel rooms needlessly booked? How many training events? How many thousands of hours of pilots pulled off the line? For what? So that the rights of senior pilots must be preserved at all costs... even if it jeopardizes the health of the company.

You guys can't see the forest through the trees, sometimes.

 

[titans10]

Thats's how a bid goes. You bid for what you want(What you can hold). Yes, It effects everyone on a list. It happens at Majors, Regionals, and Cargo carriers. If you get displaced out of a seat or base that is life.

 

[FOrever85]

SLI was an abortion. Yes. And a part of it is about QOL, as I was displaced back to FO to make room for Colgan pilots.

But it goes beyond that now. The idiotic idea of a multi-class bid is now affecting the future health and well-being of this company. How many displacements? How many thousands of hotel rooms needlessly booked? How many training events? How many thousands of hours of pilots pulled off the line? For what? So that the rights of senior pilots must be preserved at all costs... even if it jeopardizes the health of the company.

You guys can't see the forest through the trees, sometimes.

You crack me up.

Re-alignments are part of mergers. They knew that. Why you don't, I don't really know.

The really funny part of your posts (or I should say ironic) is your repeated reference to multi-class bids.

If you really are getting downgraded, there is a reason you should be mad about multi-class bids, but it doesn't have anything to do with costing the company money. (the opposite really)

hint: The multi-class bid on the 11-09 re-alignment alone saved the company about $2.5 million.

Maybe you should call a union rep and have them explain all this before your next post.

 

[Flyprdu]

hint: The multi-class bid on the 11-09 re-alignment alone saved the company about $2.5 million.

This is a bullsh*t sales pitch. Saved $2.5 million? Compared to what? An even longer, drawn-out waste of money?

There were much more efficient plans that could have been implemented. We could have just absorbed the displacements. Menke was begging for it. You guys are so blind to reality and so proud for thinking up your dump and flush method.. that you don't realize that it's breaking the company.

But it's almost as if you don't give a sh*t. It's like Mesaba and Colgan pilots have moved into Pinnacle's house, and Pinnacle pilots are standing around open-mouthed and shocked at how completely destructive you all have been.

 

[jynxyjericho]

You crack me up.

Re-alignments are part of mergers. They knew that. Why you don't, I don't really know.

The really funny part of your posts (or I should say ironic) is your repeated reference to multi-class bids.

If you really are getting downgraded, there is a reason you should be mad about multi-class bids, but it doesn't have anything to do with costing the company money. (the opposite really)

hint: The multi-class bid on the 11-09 re-alignment alone saved the company about $2.5 million.

Maybe you should call a union rep and have them explain all this before your next post.

You crack me up.

Re-alignments are part of mergers. They knew that. Why you don't, I don't really know.

The really funny part of your posts (or I should say ironic) is your repeated reference to multi-class bids.

If you really are getting downgraded, there is a reason you should be mad about multi-class bids, but it doesn't have anything to do with costing the company money. (the opposite really)

hint: The multi-class bid on the 11-09 re-alignment alone saved the company about $2.5 million.

Maybe you should call a union rep and have them explain all this before your next post.

I had heard (don't think I ever saw in print) it was closer to a four million in savings. Either way you are correct the multi-class did save money for the company.

SLI was an abortion. Yes. And a part of it is about QOL, as I was displaced back to FO to make room for Colgan pilots.

But it goes beyond that now. The idiotic idea of a multi-class bid is now affecting the future health and well-being of this company. How many displacements? How many thousands of hotel rooms needlessly booked? How many training events? How many thousands of hours of pilots pulled off the line? For what? So that the rights of senior pilots must be preserved at all costs... even if it jeopardizes the health of the company.

You guys can't see the forest through the trees, sometimes.

Firstly it's forest FOR the trees, not through.

SLI SLI SLI. God is there an echo in here?
From what I can see in the 11-09, and keep in mind I only went through a couple of pages, there would have been a lot less moving around if the SLI had been merged in a DOH scenario. I would go so far as to say that a DOH SLI would have saved us so much money we wouldn't be taking pay cuts (not because it's true but, like you, reality be damned). If your real intent is to save the company money and list all the things that went wrong you should include JH on the list for not agreeing to DOH.

There, everyone get in and gripe about the SLI even though we can't change it. It's Festivus, everyone air their greivances! Nothing will change, and we won't feel better, but do it anyway because it's worth our time!

This isn't our last merger (in our career) Prdu, have some dignity. We can't go back and change the SLI, the fences, or wipe away 11-09. The SLI is complete and it's binding. While I may pretend otherwise on this post (for your benefit), I think it's all time we moved past the SLI and focused our blame where it belongs, on the French.

On a side note, I'm willing to give up 5% of my pay if I get 5 minutes alone with Phil Trenary for running us into the ground. If Menke can arrange that and my pardon from any later court proceedings I'll sign the papers today.

 

[Flyprdu]

Firstly it's forest FOR the trees, not through.

Really? This is what you're reduced to? Wow. Even though "through the trees" is an accepted alternative idiom. Don't be such a prick. :smash:

If your real intent is to save the company money and list all the things that went wrong you should include JH on the list for not agreeing to DOH.

Read my list again.

Nothing will change, and we won't feel better, but do it anyway because it's worth our time!

Unfortunately, you hear this "nothing to see here" encouraged resignation a lot from your side. Make sure no one will make waves and let us continue about our business.. which happens to be burning the company to the ground.

We can't go back and change the SLI, the fences, or wipe away 11-09. The SLI is complete and it's binding.

This is where you lose me. Bloch's only purpose was to develop a seniority list. He did that. It's up to us to figure out a way to implement it. Now this is where Mesaba pilots' heads explode: We could have implemented integration any way we wanted, including allowing displacements to be absorbed..*gasp* out of seniority order!!
You make it sound like Richard K. Bloch. esq. sits on the Supreme Court. He's just an arbitrator.. and we, as Pinnacle corp, could disregard his finding if we all came to an amicable agreement ourselves. But that requires grown-ups... and well, this is ALPA, afterall.

 

[FOrever85]

This is a bullsh*t sales pitch. Saved $2.5 million? Compared to what? An even longer, drawn-out waste of money?

There were much more efficient plans that could have been implemented. We could have just absorbed the displacements. Menke was begging for it. You guys are so blind to reality and so proud for thinking up your dump and flush method.. that you don't realize that it's breaking the company.

But it's almost as if you don't give a sh*t. It's like Mesaba and Colgan pilots have moved into Pinnacle's house, and Pinnacle pilots are standing around open-mouthed and shocked at how completely destructive you all have been.

Oh no, someone didn't call their union rep.

Yes, according to displacement language in OUR/YOUR contract it would have been a much longer process. Here's the crazy part, displacement language from your old contract is the same as the new one. (Sorry for the facts, I can tell you like making XJ pilots out to be the bad guys)

F^&k it, I'll spell it out for you. A multi-class bid prevented multiple training events. (yourself included.. Ah irony!) SO YES IT SAVED THE COMPANY A LOT OF MONEY. OUR union didn't have to do it. They did it to save the company money.

The irony you keep missing, (which is hilarious for me) is the money they are saving is coming directly from you. They are saving money by downgrading you faster. So literally, the jokes on you!

But hey, why deal in contracts, seniority, and facts. Let's just pull s*&t out of our ass like your idea.


P.S. Your last sentence was really funny.

 

[Flyprdu]

Yes, according to displacement language in OUR/YOUR contract it would have been a much longer process.

Let's be clear, that's a Mesaba provision.. which is why you consider it a "cost savings." The rest of us consider it a big circlejerk of wastefulness.

They are saving money by downgrading you faster. So literally, the jokes on you!

It is because of the rock-solid, intractable displacement language, which was never meant to address a complex situation of this scope, I was displaced in the first place. If the company had had the flexibility to work in the XJ and 9L displacees, then the secondaries would have never happened. Face it, XJ caused this.

But hey, why deal in contracts, seniority, and facts. Let's just pull s*&t out of our ass like your idea.

Sometimes complex times require complex thinking. And you have perfectly illustrated why Mesaba will be the doom of us all. Strict adherence to the contract without considering the situation or the consequences.

I'm done here.

 

[Flyer1015]

SLI was an abortion. Yes. And a part of it is about QOL, as I was displaced back to FO to make room for Colgan pilots.

But it goes beyond that now. The idiotic idea of a multi-class bid is now affecting the future health and well-being of this company. How many displacements? How many thousands of hotel rooms needlessly booked? How many training events? How many thousands of hours of pilots pulled off the line? For what? So that the rights of senior pilots must be preserved at all costs... even if it jeopardizes the health of the company.

You guys can't see the forest through the trees, sometimes.

Seniority is all gone out the window with this SLI award and its conditions. flyprdu is a 9E displaced Captain, physically hired well before tons of Mesaba captains who are getting awarded DTW and JFK captains, and Colgan pilots being awarded jets. Seniority went out the window with this crap status/category method and its quotas/restrictions.

wrong you should include JH on the list for not agreeing to DOH.

JH should be sued for a failure of DFR by proposing a staple for Colgan pilots and pretending Mesaba's Saabs didn't exist. He should also be sued because even after the Apr 15 hearings were closed, Bloch had to ask JH to clarify the DOH issue for him. It's clear that JH and team did NOT present our case in a clear, concise manner.

We can't go back and change the SLI, the fences, or wipe away 11-09.

The list you can't change but hell yes you can change the fences and wipe away 11-09. You can do it voluntarily via a union offered concession, or involuntarily once Pinnacle files bankruptcy. Take your pick!

 

[DoinTime]

...and pretending Mesaba's Saabs didn't exist

Ummmm....Mesaba Saabs don't exist. Seems like JH hit the nail on the head with that one.

 

[Flyer1015]

Ummmm....Mesaba Saabs don't exist. Seems like JH hit the nail on the head with that one.

Even though the Saabs dont exist, their pilots do. His proposal basically screwed and stapled those amount of Saab pilots. In the end, Bloch punished the 9e side by completely fencing them off for Pinnacle pilots. This wasn't an accident, it was a slap in the face from Bloch to the comittee he knew was most unreasonable. Proposing an entire staple job of Colgan was the most unreasonable and dumbest proposal imaginable. Of course, a certain someone had his mind on slot machines at a Vegas hotel, and even proposed it as a meeting place.

 

[DoinTime]

Even though the Saabs dont exist, their pilots do. His proposal basically screwed and stapled those amount of Saab pilots. In the end, Bloch punished the 9e side by completely fencing them off for Pinnacle pilots. This wasn't an accident, it was a slap in the face from Bloch to the comittee he knew was most unreasonable. Proposing an entire staple job of Colgan was the most unreasonable and dumbest proposal imaginable. Of course, a certain someone had his mind on slot machines at a Vegas hotel, and even proposed it as a meeting place.

You are not very smart.

 

[saabservant]

Hey, I'm ex-mesaba and furloughed from a major, working for a large regional, right seat. that sucks, but I'm grateful to be flying! Reading all this, I'm glad to be away from it, even if making no money. Keep it all in perspective, folks, and best wishes.....

But, JUST SAY NO when the company and the "union" offer concessions to entice bargaining. IT DOES NOT WORK.
Alpa will always "live to fight another day", instead of standing up for professional standards for pay and QOL. Hence our present way of life.....remember, your "regional" contract is signed by alpa national, NOT your local or mec reps (who, by the way, are some of the best folks you can meet and work with- they really do care)
They (alpa natl.) don't care about the working conditions for over half the pilots flying domestically. They do care about keeping the DUES coming in......just my .o2....

 

[Flyer1015]

You are not very smart.

I'm educated better now on the whole SLI fiasco. I've personally seen the email chains. You know who wasn't very smart? JH, JW, and PS. What I'd like to know is what JH did to get PS onboard the Colgan staple idea. By proposing a staple, the committee did not represent the needs and desires of the Pinnacle group fairly. These 3 need to be held accountable. No pilot group told them to go and propose a damn staple! Idiots.

 

[suupah]

I'm educated better now on the whole SLI fiasco. I've personally seen the email chains. You know who wasn't very smart? JH, JW, and PS. What I'd like to know is what JH did to get PS onboard the Colgan staple idea. By proposing a staple, the committee did not represent the needs and desires of the Pinnacle group fairly. These 3 need to be held accountable. No pilot group told them to go and propose a damn staple! Idiots.

was this your stance at the time?

 

[On Your Six]

I'm educated better now on the whole SLI fiasco. I've personally seen the email chains. You know who wasn't very smart? JH, JW, and PS. What I'd like to know is what JH did to get PS onboard the Colgan staple idea. By proposing a staple, the committee did not represent the needs and desires of the Pinnacle group fairly. These 3 need to be held accountable. No pilot group told them to go and propose a damn staple! Idiots.

Sorry, but Richard Bloch determined the fair way to do it, but unfortunately your company couldn't afford it.


Godspeed!


The OYSter

 

[Flyer1015]

was this your stance at the time?

YES. I never wanted a staple of any pilot group. I may have joked about a 3 to 1 against Mesaba but that's only because that was the deal the flight attendants were getting, and I wasn't serious about it.

Sorry, but Richard Bloch determined the fair way to do it, but unfortunately your company couldn't afford it.

What's fair about a Colgan pilot hired in January 2008 now senior to a Mesaba pilot hired in 2000? Fair is hardly the word I'd use to describe the SLI or its conditions and restrictions.

 

[On Your Six]

YES. I never wanted a staple of any pilot group. I may have joked about a 3 to 1 against Mesaba but that's only because that was the deal the flight attendants were getting, and I wasn't serious about it.



What's fair about a Colgan pilot hired in January 2008 now senior to a Mesaba pilot hired in 2000? Fair is hardly the word I'd use to describe the SLI or its conditions and restrictions.

Bloch looked at everthing brought to the table, and decided what was fair. Some people might not like it, but he had no outside influence, called it like he saw it, and was paid a standard fee. That's called binding arbitration.


Godspeed!


The OYSter

 

[titans10]

YES. I never wanted a staple of any pilot group. I may have joked about a 3 to 1 against Mesaba but that's only because that was the deal the flight attendants were getting, and I wasn't serious about it.



What's fair about a Colgan pilot hired in January 2008 now senior to a Mesaba pilot hired in 2000? Fair is hardly the word I'd use to describe the SLI or its conditions and restrictions.

Samething happen during the delta/onward merger. 2000/2001 hires at nwa in with 2007/2008 hires at delta. The list is what it is. Nothing you can do about it. Unless, you want to be bitter the rest of your time at PNCL. Good luck.

 

[filejw]

Samething happen during the delta/onward merger. 2000/2001 hires at nwa in with 2007/2008 hires at delta. The list is what it is. Nothing you can do about it. Unless, you want to be bitter the rest of your time at PNCL. Good luck.

Well we could have a union that is date based for seniority, with restrictions of course. What gets me is ALPA collected dues from those 2000 hires an didn't protect their seniority.ALPA outsources its most important duty to an arbitrator. Seniority rules should be set in stone by the BOD , they are just afraid of the work that need to be done.

 

[XJohXJ]

Well we could have a union that is date based for seniority, with restrictions of course. What gets me is ALPA collected dues from those 2000 hires an didn't protect their seniority.ALPA outsources its most important duty to an arbitrator. Seniority rules should be set in stone by the BOD , they are just afraid of the work that need to be done.

I couldn't possibly agree with you more. Thank you for a succinct summary of the tremendous problem with the PNCL merger.

 

[PCL_128]

remember, your "regional" contract is signed by alpa national, NOT your local or mec reps

Wrong. The ALPA President doesn't even get the CBA until after the local Negotiating Committee and MEC Officers have signed it. They make the decision, and the ALPA President only gets it after they have agreed to it.

Seniority rules should be set in stone by the BOD , they are just afraid of the work that need to be done.

Wrong. The BOD isn't "afraid" of it, the BOD has determined that trying to set those kinds of rules in stone is ridiculous, because every merger is different and turns on its own facts. A DOH merger for one carrier may make perfect sense, but it would make zero sense for another merger. That is why we have negotiations, mediation, and binding arbitration.

 

[WMUSIGPI]

Wrong. The ALPA President doesn't even get the CBA until after the local Negotiating Committee and MEC Officers have signed it. They make the decision, and the ALPA President only gets it after they have agreed to it.



Wrong. The BOD isn't "afraid" of it, the BOD has determined that trying to set those kinds of rules in stone is ridiculous, because every merger is different and turns on its own facts. A DOH merger for one carrier may make perfect sense, but it would make zero sense for another merger. That is why we have negotiations, mediation, and binding arbitration.[/QUOTE]

Because there are no guts to creat a NATIONAL seniority list. Create that list and mergers become a non issue.

 

[PCL_128]

Because there are no guts to creat a NATIONAL seniority list. Create that list and mergers become a non issue.

It's not an issue of "guts." ALPA created the Career Security Protocol Committee (CSPC), which was responsible for determining how to move forward with a national seniority list or something similar. They completed their work last year. Unfortunately, they found the same thing that every other group that has worked on this issue has found: the individual pilot groups just won't support it. Every time this is tried, you get the same thing: the pilot groups that are furloughing or stagnated demand a national list, and the other pilot groups refuse to even consider it. The comical thing is that the pilot groups switch every time it comes up. Last time, the UAL guys were fighting it, because they had 3-year upgrades at the time. This time, they were the ones who proposed the idea!

To put it simply, pilots are selfish. If it works in their favor, they want a national list. If it doesn't, then they oppose it. Until that changes, then no initiative by ALPA will fix it.

 

[Adam]

Not only are we selfish, but greedy and dumb. We are the enemy.

 

[xjhawk]

OY6, remember one thing-this is very important. The term fair is relative to your perception.

I sat in a a ALPA meeting where on a slide show presentation, they had a number of things listed as what was ALPA merger policy. One of the words that was larger than the rest, in bold lettering, was "LONGEVITY". That it must be respected. When I brought this very slide up, and how our arbitrator did not respect mine and many others longevity. They tried to deflect my question every way possible. I want my 4-5 years of ALPA dues back, as I was not represented in those years-as my LONGEVITY was $hit on.

Oh and for those of you at Pinnacle who think our concessions will save this train wreck, Guess what? PInnacle cannot cancel out the Block decision without a bankruptcy. Pinnacle cannot cancel lease's without BK.

Does anyone know the verbage in the ASA on the provisions Delta has if Pinnacle declares BK? I am sure there is some back room handshakes going on as there are Delta reps on Pinnacles board.

 

[jynxyjericho]

Not only are we selfish, but greedy and dumb. We are the enemy.

Add to that, "wanna-be white collar smug snobs". We are absolutely the greatest hurdle to our own success.