It's official, no deal now

[jke406]

ding ding ding!!

we have a winner!

 

[Schwanker]

"With that said, I'm a newhire at DAL and I will hit 50% on the list in 2023 with age 65 and NO additional pilots hired after today.

With only about 1000 retirements between now and 2020 in a 7000 pilot seniority list, that would put a new hire at number 6000. So you only need to hire another 6000 pilots for a 12,000 pilot seniority list to get to the 50% mark. Maybe that growth the General predicts will come true. Good Luck!

Schwanker

 

[PuffDriver]

You're right. DAL is better. NWA should have just folded. Heck, maybe if we beg DAL will allow NWA to be stapled to the bottom of their list!!! It's so nice of the DAL MEC to be so balanced and right down the middle with their career expectations of both seniority lists! DAL rules!!!

Schwanker

I guess that you have nothing worth anything to add. Nobody said Delta is better than NWA. What I did say is that the future does not bode well as it looks today. All of your great scenarios are based on NWA being BK free by 2011 AND in a position to give you 33% above your contract. The Delta MEC is quite aware of the real life shaping up in the now. I am not saying that NWA is going to fold, I am saying that your career progression going it alone is not going to come to fruition. You assume only retirements, when in real life they will likely be offset by the parking of a fleet. It has already been thrown out there by people in the know. You say Delta presented a list from which there was no bargaining. In a way, you are correct. They presented a list that showed how much better any given NWA pilot will be with the merger and the list as is AS WELL AS any given Delta pilot. No one gains more, no one gains less. that is the core issue with ALPA merger policy. Try and stick to the issues as opposed to emotional rhetoric. There is way too much at stake. Of course, it may be too late already, in which case all of this is just mud-slinging and fire away.

 

[ironspud]

It's likely crap, but on another message board it was "reported" that the NWA proposal had 30 DL pilots in the top 2000 numbers and DL would own all of the bottom 2000 numbers (of the combined list). Can this honestly be true? Very APA-esq if true.

 

[nwaredtail]

It's likely crap, but on another message board it was "reported" that the NWA proposal had 30 DL pilots in the top 2000 numbers and DL would own all of the bottom 2000 numbers (of the combined list). Can this honestly be true? Very APA-esq if true.

These guys know absolutely D*CK about any proposals that were passed. Ignore them and please realize not all NWA and DAL pilots are as arrogant and full of crap as these people.

I find it laughable that the General and Puff think that NWA pilots would pass up a "good" deal. They said "no thank you" because the deal that Rocket Scientist Lee Moak came up with would absolutely screw all but about 400 of our pilots. His arrogance and lack of foresight will put DAL in a position of no dance partner very soon, while NWA weighs it's options.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Well it was not agreed to, so it is a moot point.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

These guys know absolutely D*CK about any proposals that were passed. Ignore them and please realize not all NWA and DAL pilots are as arrogant and full of crap as these people.

I find it laughable that the General and Puff think that NWA pilots would pass up a "good" deal. They said "no thank you" because the deal that Rocket Scientist Lee Moak came up with would absolutely screw all but about 400 of our pilots. His arrogance and lack of foresight will put DAL in a position of no dance partner very soon, while NWA weighs it's options.

Read ALPA's merger and fragmentation policy. A ratio is how there are not gains for either one. I think that as time passes we will all realize what a god proposal it was.

 

[nwaredtail]

Read ALPA's merger and fragmentation policy. A ratio is how there are not gains for either one. I think that as time passes we will all realize what a god proposal it was.

Sure, You all got to move up a good 20% or so recently and then get to move up more as NWA pilots retire over the next 10 years. Sounds fair to me.

Answer this, WITH NO GROWTH, how much will a DAL pilot move on the DAL list over the next 10 years. About 400 or 8%

With No growth at NWA, A NWA pilot will move up around 950, or 22% ish. HUGE DIFFERENCE and DALALPA knows it.

 

[General Lee]

Sure, You all got to move up a good 20% or so recently and then get to move up more as NWA pilots retire over the next 10 years. Sounds fair to me.

Answer this, WITH NO GROWTH, how much will a DAL pilot move on the DAL list over the next 10 years. About 400 or 8%

With No growth at NWA, A NWA pilot will move up around 950, or 22% ish. HUGE DIFFERENCE and DALALPA knows it.

But wait, there is growth at DAL, and also AMR is looking at you. How about dem apples? The only thing that is constant is CHANGE. Things Change. You cannot control the future. If oil continues it's rise and Steenland decided to park even more DC9s for some reason, then your expectations change AGAIN. Your career expectations argument does NOT work.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

With only about 1000 retirements between now and 2020 in a 7000 pilot seniority list, that would put a new hire at number 6000. So you only need to hire another 6000 pilots for a 12,000 pilot seniority list to get to the 50% mark. Maybe that growth the General predicts will come true. Good Luck!

Schwanker

How would you do merging with AMR? How many pilots do they have? How would you do? They would love to staple you and then you can sue them. They don't care what the laws are. They will do it and force you to make a move. Enjoy that. Remember, your MEC came back to ours for a reason----the reason being AMR is looking at you now. Steenland doesn't care either way, he will get his $14 million and his large new house on Lake Minnetonka regardless of who he merges with. Enjoy NYC on the MD80, for years and years.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[PuffDriver]

Sure, You all got to move up a good 20% or so recently and then get to move up more as NWA pilots retire over the next 10 years. Sounds fair to me.

Answer this, WITH NO GROWTH, how much will a DAL pilot move on the DAL list over the next 10 years. About 400 or 8%

With No growth at NWA, A NWA pilot will move up around 950, or 22% ish. HUGE DIFFERENCE and DALALPA knows it.

You assume that NWA will stay status quo. You assume that the bottom will not rise up to meet them, which all signs point to BTW. ACL65 is right. The point is moot, for now.

 

[Klamath]

Age 65 passed in December. NWA retirements for Jan were 19; for Feb, 20, let's see what happens in Mar. The NWA guys are leaving with their pensions. Your relative seniority "Today" picture is not ours' 5 years from now.

Quit begging us to merge. You keep stating how much we will gain, while you suffer, but you're the ones trying to convince us to join forces.

Keep Delta your Delta as one other poster says.

I've always felt a little sorry for the homely girl who thinks she's hot.

 

[Schwanker]

How would you do merging with AMR?
The SLI would likely be better than the DAL table position. I don't like the financials of the combined company. AMR has it's work cut out for them over the next few years.
How many pilots do they have? How would you do? They would love to staple you and then you can sue them. They don't care what the laws are. They will do it and force you to make a move. Enjoy that. Remember, your MEC came back to ours for a reason----the reason being AMR is looking at you now. Steenland doesn't care either way, he will get his $14 million and his large new house on Lake Minnetonka regardless of who he merges with. Enjoy NYC on the MD80, for years and years.


Bye Bye--General Lee

I do find it kind of funny that you're resorting to scare tactics. NWA does have a poison pill and locks up CAL with the Golden Share. Personally, I like my odds best with the NWA stand alone plan. A DAL or CAL merge has potential, but only with a fair SLI. Moaks definition is fair to the DAL guys. Sorry, but it won't work for the NWA crew.

Schwanker

 

[Schwanker]

Age 65 passed in December. NWA retirements for Jan were 19; for Feb, 20, let's see what happens in Mar. The NWA guys are leaving with their pensions. Your relative seniority "Today" picture is not ours' 5 years from now.

I anticipate quite a few NWA guys who are reaching 60 to stick around hoping for a quick equity payout. When the hype passes (hopefully this all dies soon), they'll be gone like the rest!

Schwanker

 

[nwaredtail]

I've always felt a little sorry for the homely girl who thinks she's hot.[/QUOTE]

Too funny, the General is just nervous because Saint Richard is going to cut domestci mainline and Int'l expansion tomorrow, leaving his "growth" argument out into the wind.

Interviewer to the Delta Captain, "what would you be if you couldn't be a pilot for Delta?"

Delta pilot in that lovely southern drawl, "Well, ma'am, I'd be ashamed"

Saw it, no sh*t.

 

[DTW320]

Posted on the NWA board:

Moak's letter said it all, that they didn't come to
negotiate, but to present their proposal. Even their own
numbers show a VAST amount of stagnation for NWA pilots,
because under their ratioed list, it was mostly DAL
pilots that would move into the vacated positions left
by NWA retirees.

Our side would obviously like DOH, and their side
obviously wants a ratioed list. They wouldn't even TALK
about meeting in the middle. It's their way or the
highway...well Mr. Moak, the on ramp is right over
there.

 

[YourPilotFriend]

Delta has a massive regional jet problem on its hand. Its liability is ten times that of NWA at least. NWA's regionals are profitable right now even at $110bbl.

 

[Occam's Razor]

Gents,

It might be a good time to relax and take a breath. The proposals aren't as far apart as you think...and the differences could be overcome.

The DAL team moved, and the NWA team moved. Both developed a new method for solving the "stagnation" issue. Within the methodology, there was/is room for BOTH sides to move without selling their souls. One side is ready to move. The other isn't...right now.

Nothing in airline negotiations happens without a deadline, and there is no deadline. (If there is, and it hasn't been made clear to both sides, then management will have gooned this)

The chipping here is stoo-pid. These are two strong airlines that have solid pilot groups.

 

[nwaredtail]

Gents,

It might be a good time to relax and take a breath. The proposals aren't as far apart as you think...and the differences could be overcome.

The DAL team moved, and the NWA team moved. Both developed a new method for solving the "stagnation" issue. Within the methodology, there was/is room for BOTH sides to move without selling their souls. One side is ready to move. The other isn't...right now.

Nothing in airline negotiations happens without a deadline, and there is no deadline. (If there is, and it hasn't been made clear to both sides, then management will have gooned this)

The chipping here is stoo-pid. These are two strong airlines that have solid pilot groups.

I hear the A320 instructors are a bit weak though

 

[eaglefly]

Ok, oh blind one. Keep watching. [Picture of Hussein on his way to the gallows]

......and you keep puffin those weanies on your layovers.

You're better at that, then forcasting the future of the industry.

 

[eaglefly]

You and your EMJs are a major problem in this industry with high oil, and you might want to be looking for a NWA interview very soon. The 742 FE slot would be good for you in ANC. Go for it!

Bye Bye--General Lee

Your excessive salary (for work performed) and poor work ethic aren't helping either.

If Delta parks some birds, you may want to wave your upgrade bye-bye for a decade or so.

The NWA guys were smart for not taking the offer of furlough fodder from your MEC. I guess nervousness will be back in play there, huh ?

 

[MJ42]

Gents,

It might be a good time to relax and take a breath. The proposals aren't as far apart as you think...and the differences could be overcome.

The DAL team moved, and the NWA team moved. Both developed a new method for solving the "stagnation" issue. Within the methodology, there was/is room for BOTH sides to move without selling their souls. One side is ready to move. The other isn't...right now.

Nothing in airline negotiations happens without a deadline, and there is no deadline. (If there is, and it hasn't been made clear to both sides, then management will have gooned this)

The chipping here is stoo-pid. These are two strong airlines that have solid pilot groups.

Thanks for the common sense update.

 

[Truckdriver]

With only about 1000 retirements between now and 2020 in a 7000 pilot seniority list, that would put a new hire at number 6000. So you only need to hire another 6000 pilots for a 12,000 pilot seniority list to get to the 50% mark. Maybe that growth the General predicts will come true. Good Luck!

Schwanker

Again, you have to be the most one sided idiot in this argument. I think most people have a handle on what the other side is looking at except you. My calculator shows 3446 retirements between now and 2023 and about 2300 by 2020. By 2023, guys at the bottom of the Delta list will be about the same relative seniority as guys at the bottom of the NWA list. Stop posting absolute crap and educate yourself before you post. Your making yourself look very stupid at this point.

I think both sides should have given here. I've flown with 88 Captains who said that relative seniority would have bumped them back to the right seat and I know NWA guys who say the relative seniority would put a 99 DAL guy right next to a 95 NWA guy. I'm not sure what the answer should have been to the integration, but I'm almost certain we will all end up worse off when they pull the trigger on the merger without us involved. You think were gonna get a chunk of equity, more retirement money, and pay raises of close to 20% over the next 4 years with a recession and $100bbl oil? Maybe we are as stupid as management thinks we are.

 

[AA717driver]

Congrats to the NWA guys for not letting someone else negotiate for them. TC

 

[FDJ2]

With No growth at NWA, A NWA pilot will move up around 950, or 22% ish. HUGE DIFFERENCE and DALALPA knows it.

Check out your growth plan now.

Reuters


Northwest Airlines (NYSE:NWA - News), which slashed operations in bankruptcy, may shrink the airline even more if fuel prices erode travel demand, the carrier's chief executive said.

In a recorded message to employees on Sunday, Doug Steenland did not specify what steps Northwest might take or how much smaller the airline might get, but he cautioned that higher fuel costs can lead to fewer passengers. "With that in mind, we have to rethink the size of the airline we operate," he said.

 

[Superpilot92]

Again, you have to be the most one sided idiot in this argument. I think most people have a handle on what the other side is looking at except you. My calculator shows 3446 retirements between now and 2023 and about 2300 by 2020. By 2023, guys at the bottom of the Delta list will be about the same relative seniority as guys at the bottom of the NWA list. Stop posting absolute crap and educate yourself before you post. Your making yourself look very stupid at this point.

I think both sides should have given here. I've flown with 88 Captains who said that relative seniority would have bumped them back to the right seat and I know NWA guys who say the relative seniority would put a 99 DAL guy right next to a 95 NWA guy. I'm not sure what the answer should have been to the integration, but I'm almost certain we will all end up worse off when they pull the trigger on the merger without us involved. You think were gonna get a chunk of equity, more retirement money, and pay raises of close to 20% over the next 4 years with a recession and $100bbl oil? Maybe we are as stupid as management thinks we are.

I agree. Bottom line is if MGMT wants it to happen they are going to try.

 

[Tref]

Read ALPA's merger and fragmentation policy. A ratio is how there are not gains for either one. I think that as time passes we will all realize what a god proposal it was.

Ha, typo or Freudian slip?!

 

[tomgoodman]

Negotiating

Nothing in airline negotiations happens without a deadline, and there is no deadline.

That's true, and it frequently takes at least one walk-away from the table and sometimes a new negotiating team. Even if the deal offered is sweet indeed, it must appear to be the reward of a hard-fought victory. That's why I question the wisdom of ever opening with a "best and final offer" (whether or not that happened in this case). Such a strategy ignores human nature.

 

[FDJ2]

That's why I question the wisdom of ever opening with a "best and final offer" (whether or not that happened in this case). Such a strategy ignores human nature.

There was no "best and final offer" opener, but there was an opener that didn't start with a wish list.

The reality is that there was never time for all the monkey motions and posturing of a traditional integration "negotiation".

Regardless, I believe the window of opportunity has come and gone.

That's o.k., we didn't come to an agreement, we each go our separate ways.

 

[General Lee]

Your excessive salary (for work performed) and poor work ethic aren't helping either.

If Delta parks some birds, you may want to wave your upgrade bye-bye for a decade or so.

The NWA guys were smart for not taking the offer of furlough fodder from your MEC. I guess nervousness will be back in play there, huh ?

No parking of mainline planes supposedly, only moving them from DOM to INTL. Primarily the 764s that still do some domestic flying. If I move over there, I get a $20 raise an hour. If I can hold 737NG (we still get 7 this year), then I will get even more. As far as the NWA guys getting "furlough fodder" from our MEC, I bet their own planes (DC9s) would be the first to go, not our MD88s. But, you know better....... And, I am not nervous at all, sometimes seniority does help. You might use your seniority to bid ATR soon. Which base will it be? MIA or SJU?


Bye Bye--General Lee