It's almost over at USAIR.

[BeCareful!]

OK Everybody, repeat after me:

"Employee concessions have never saved an airline".

I am curious as to the reasons so many people think it will be different at U or UAL, et. al.?

United will not get exit financing with the defined pensions in their current state. I don't believe employee concessions will save either of these airlines alone either, but I do know United will at least partially liquidate if the pensions don't go away - as will all the airlines with defined pensions, eventually.

Skykid-

How do you "know" this? Is this something the UAL negotiators said? Where does all the "knowledge" on this board come from???

 

[skykid]

How do I know United will not get exit financing without dumping the pensions? Because they have been told that from every source of exit financing. With the ATSB backing it could have been done. Without it, exactly 0% chance. This is not insider information. If you add up what United would have to immediately pay to make up payments, you see why this is the case. There is no bank or group of banks that is going to loan a few extra billion to put into the pension funds. No chance.

As far as knowing all airline defined pensions are eventually doomed, all you need is a little common sense to figure that one out. That is the way every industry is going, if they haven't gone that way already. Even airlines that are in relatively good shape currently wont be able to keep up with LCCs that make no payments to defined pensions in the long run.

 

[SOVT]

US Airways, flight attendants agree on cost-cutting pact
Wednesday, December 15, 2004

By Dan Fitzpatrick, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette




After months of back-and-forth bargaining and the threat of a strike, negotiators for US Airways and the flight attendants union have reached an agreement on $94 million in annual costs cuts over the next five years.

The tentative deal, which could help the nation's seventh-largest airline survive its second bankruptcy in two years, will come before the flight attendants' Master Executive Council at 1 p.m. today. The council, meeting in the Washington, D.C. area, can send the agreement back to the bargaining table for more changes or let it out for a ratification vote among US Airways' 5,200 flight attendants.

The $94 million agreement includes pay and benefit cuts but does not address the company's requests to eliminate the flight attendants' pension plan and cut retiree health care coverage. Those requests, worth another $63 million a year, will be dealt with by U.S. Bankruptcy Court Judge Stephen Mitchell, who is overseeing US Airways' case.

Last week, the two sides were still $10 million apart on the pay and benefit cuts. But Teddy Xidas, president-elect of the flight attendants union, said "we have met" the company's number of $94 million. The "proposal is not a good one but it is where we are today."

The proposal includes a 10 percent pay cut.

Xidas, a member of the executive council, said a few "oustanding things" need to be clarified by the company in order for the council to sign off on the agreement, including how the carrier will handle any employee furloughs. Also, Xidas said she is still hoping to get the pay cut below 10 percent. The council, she said, could discuss the agreement over the next few days.

US Airways, which is seeking $1 billion in sacrifices from all work groups, has asked the bankruptcy judge to throw out the contracts of the flight attendants, passenger service workers, baggage handlers and machinists absent consensual cost-cutting deals ratified by a majority of union members.

The hearings on that motion will continue tomorrow and wrap up Friday.

The judge has said he may not rule until January.

 

[blzr]

United will not get exit financing with the defined pensions in their current state. I don't believe employee concessions will save either of these airlines alone either, but I do know United will at least partially liquidate if the pensions don't go away - as will all the airlines with defined pensions, eventually

Their logic defies explanation. Lets just cut the pensions that our hard working employeed have earned. How about going to your mortgage compay and saying "I am really paying you guys too much and so, for me to get back to profitability, I'm just going to STIFF ya. Yeah, I know, I made some bad choices buying expensive cars and dating women WAY outta my league that took me to the cleaners, so I have to stop paying my mortgage and I hope you'll understand.

That is basically what the airlines are doing and, to me, it seems criminal.

 

[lowecur]

The posturing and wrangling is almost over. UAIR will get what it needs. Do you really believe all those high paid veteran FA's are going to go to work for $18,000 somewhere else?

IAM's is now making a counter proposal, as they are facing loosing 4000 baggage handlers, and 2000 mx. They get it, as the judge, national mediation board, or congress will eventually give them less. Unfortunately, we still have people on this board who are uninformed and don't get it.........boing!

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/04350/426958.stm

 

[skykid]

Blzr,

That may seem criminal. I don't like it either. You have to look logically at the options though. Have a chance to survive and no pension, or lose your job and have no pension. Then I get to start at the bottom for the same new crappy pay and benefits at an LCC that guess what, has no defined pension plan. Tell me what the other choice is. All these airlines that only fly domestic (I include Mexico, the islands, and Canada as domestic) with only one type of aircraft and no defined pensions have taken away the pricing power domestically. That is the way it is. I'm not blaming anybody, but none of the legacy carriers are going to keep defined pensions. Now, I have a pretty generous 401k where my employer puts in 9% without me doing anything, and a defined pension. Guess what, I'm realistic enough to know I can't keep that defined pension and still have a job. Common sense.

 

[Boeingman]

I think LowIQer got kicked off the Insurance forum

The posturing and wrangling is almost over. UAIR will get what it needs. Do you really believe all those high paid veteran FA's are going to go to work for $18,000 somewhere else?

IAM's is now making a counter proposal, as they are facing loosing 4000 baggage handlers, and 2000 mx. They get it, as the judge, national mediation board, or congress will eventually give them less. Unfortunately, we still have people on this board who are uninformed and don't get it.........boing!

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/04350/426958.stm

Being told by a tool like you that I am uninformed is actually a complement. Thank you.

Question LowestIQer: Just how long do you think the company can operate with bitter and disgusted employees? Or will you just ignore that one as well?
Speaking of which, your continued hype to profit from those suffering at U is disgusting beyond all belief. You fit the bill perfectly of a slime ball insurance salesman. After all, with all you post here, that is actually all you are. Source considered has been echoed on more than one occasion about you.

BTW, I noticed you never did answer those pointed questions I replied to you earlier about how U will survive. I guess you just couldn't find an appropriate newspaper article to bolster your continued idiotic theories.

Maybe you can run these ideas past those bar flys at the Holiday Inn Express and wow them, but you don't fool anyone here.

 

[MedFlyer]

The posturing and wrangling is almost over. UAIR will get what it needs. Do you really believe all those high paid veteran FA's are going to go to work for $18,000 somewhere else?

IAM's is now making a counter proposal, as they are facing loosing 4000 baggage handlers, and 2000 mx. They get it, as the judge, national mediation board, or congress will eventually give them less. Unfortunately, we still have people on this board who are uninformed and don't get it.........boing!

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/04350/426958.stm

The problem is that even if US gets all the cost concessions they need...they're still in trouble on the revenue side. US has continually failed (by a mile) to meet its revenue projections. This is a problem all the majors are facing (and some LCC's), but US has been the worst.

If US doesn't find a way to improve the revenue side of the picture, the cost cuts will only serve to delay the inevitable.

 

[lowecur]

Being told by a tool like you that I am uninformed is actually a complement. Thank you.

Question LowestIQer: Just how long do you think the company can operate with bitter and disgusted employees? How long has your marriage lasted? About that long. Or will you just ignore that one as well? Speaking of which, your continued hype to profit from those suffering at U is disgusting beyond all belief. Very weak. Half a loaf is better than no loaf, you dolt. Stop pretending you actually care about the employees at UAIR. Your main concern is that the precious bar is being lowered, not the employees at UAIR. You fit the bill perfectly of a slime ball insurance salesman. After all, with all you post here, that is actually all you are. Source considered has been echoed on more than one occasion about you.

BTW, I noticed you never did answer those pointed questions I replied to you earlier about how U will survive. It's really not all that complicated, Boing. You are watching the morphing from the outside. UAIR is slowly being transformed into an LCC. Lakefield and Bronner have done a masterful job of dealing with people like you. They realize that their biggest problems would be Union leadership. They are slowly breaking that stranglehold, and will eventually have a cost structure where they will make money. When the business model is broken, you break it down to a new foundation, and then you begin to build the new model. Now if you believe UAIR is no different than they were a year ago (not including the payroll reductions), then I guess you just don't get it. I guess you just couldn't find an appropriate newspaper article to bolster your continued idiotic theories.

Maybe you can run these ideas past those bar flys at the Holiday Inn Express and wow them, but you don't fool anyone here.

.....

 

[lowecur]

The problem is that even if US gets all the cost concessions they need...they're still in trouble on the revenue side. US has continually failed (by a mile) to meet its revenue projections. This is a problem all the majors are facing (and some LCC's), but US has been the worst. True, but that is due to the BK, Flyi, and projected strikes looming over their head. Eventually, they all will pass.

If US doesn't find a way to improve the revenue side of the picture, the cost cuts will only serve to delay the inevitable.

Let's just say we disagree.