It's almost over at USAIR.

[ultrarunner]

Sorry to post blindly here, as I have no dog in this fight, but is it even legal to invoke self-help while under Chapter 11 protection?

Well, 'Self Help' applies to those employees covered under a CBA. If the judge absloves the FA's CBA the company nor the FA's are afforded any contractual rights or protections that this process allows.

They simply walk off the job.

Sure, U could hire, but it would be too late by then.

 

[dlredline]

Sorry to post blindly here, as I have no dog in this fight, but is it even legal to invoke self-help while under Chapter 11 protection? ...

Leroy,

Actually, that is a very good question. No labor group has sought "self-help" protection following a complete bankruptcy-induced abrogation of an entire contract (including the TA/CAL situation) while in Chapter 11. USAirways has filed a restraining order seeking court protection against such an action should Judge Mitchell rule in the company's favor. AFA and IAM argue that abrogation is not a negotiated position as defined by the RLA, and absent a contract there is no 30 day "cooling off" period, and the union membership is free to act on it's own accord. The next 2 weeks will be very interesting.

Red

 

[BeCareful!]

Flyingitialian,

You were kidding, right?

 

[climbhappy]

ist us air pilot now past or below that of the model for LCCs ?(LUV)

how bout airtran?

 

[climbhappy]

can't type! Isn't us air pilot PAY lower than LUV?

 

[RVR300]

Everyone keeps going on about the low pay at SWA. You guys need to look up our new pay scales.

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

I rode U to recurrent this year and I have to agree with the thread title. I haven't been on one it a couple of years and I was amazed at how the aircraft have declined. The interiors were dirty and ragged. Stains on seats, broken trim, thread bare seat covers etc. The one coming back wasn't as bad, but the passengers equate the appearance of the planes as a gauge for how how well the maint. is.

Also I rode as a paying passenger instead of non-reving since I didn't have the time to risk being bumped. Given the number of passengers on board and what I paid for a round trip ticket with 30 days notice, they didn't even cover the fuel cost on the trip out, and probably just broke even on fuel and crew for the trip back, assuming that everyone paid about the same fare.

 

[michael707767]

Everyone keeps going on about the low pay at SWA. You guys need to look up our new pay scales.

I don't think anyone is saying your pay is low. In fact just the opposite. Look how good your pay is and yet your are profitable. Employee pay is not the problem.

 

[ultrarunner]

OK Everybody, repeat after me:

"Employee concessions have never saved an airline".

I am curious as to the reasons so many people think it will be different at U or UAL, et. al.?

 

[skykid]

OK Everybody, repeat after me:

"Employee concessions have never saved an airline".

I am curious as to the reasons so many people think it will be different at U or UAL, et. al.?

United will not get exit financing with the defined pensions in their current state. I don't believe employee concessions will save either of these airlines alone either, but I do know United will at least partially liquidate if the pensions don't go away - as will all the airlines with defined pensions, eventually.

 

[BeCareful!]

OK Everybody, repeat after me:

"Employee concessions have never saved an airline".

I am curious as to the reasons so many people think it will be different at U or UAL, et. al.?

United will not get exit financing with the defined pensions in their current state. I don't believe employee concessions will save either of these airlines alone either, but I do know United will at least partially liquidate if the pensions don't go away - as will all the airlines with defined pensions, eventually.

Skykid-

How do you "know" this? Is this something the UAL negotiators said? Where does all the "knowledge" on this board come from???

 

[skykid]

How do I know United will not get exit financing without dumping the pensions? Because they have been told that from every source of exit financing. With the ATSB backing it could have been done. Without it, exactly 0% chance. This is not insider information. If you add up what United would have to immediately pay to make up payments, you see why this is the case. There is no bank or group of banks that is going to loan a few extra billion to put into the pension funds. No chance.

As far as knowing all airline defined pensions are eventually doomed, all you need is a little common sense to figure that one out. That is the way every industry is going, if they haven't gone that way already. Even airlines that are in relatively good shape currently wont be able to keep up with LCCs that make no payments to defined pensions in the long run.

 

[SOVT]

US Airways, flight attendants agree on cost-cutting pact
Wednesday, December 15, 2004

By Dan Fitzpatrick, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette




After months of back-and-forth bargaining and the threat of a strike, negotiators for US Airways and the flight attendants union have reached an agreement on $94 million in annual costs cuts over the next five years.

The tentative deal, which could help the nation's seventh-largest airline survive its second bankruptcy in two years, will come before the flight attendants' Master Executive Council at 1 p.m. today. The council, meeting in the Washington, D.C. area, can send the agreement back to the bargaining table for more changes or let it out for a ratification vote among US Airways' 5,200 flight attendants.

The $94 million agreement includes pay and benefit cuts but does not address the company's requests to eliminate the flight attendants' pension plan and cut retiree health care coverage. Those requests, worth another $63 million a year, will be dealt with by U.S. Bankruptcy Court Judge Stephen Mitchell, who is overseeing US Airways' case.

Last week, the two sides were still $10 million apart on the pay and benefit cuts. But Teddy Xidas, president-elect of the flight attendants union, said "we have met" the company's number of $94 million. The "proposal is not a good one but it is where we are today."

The proposal includes a 10 percent pay cut.

Xidas, a member of the executive council, said a few "oustanding things" need to be clarified by the company in order for the council to sign off on the agreement, including how the carrier will handle any employee furloughs. Also, Xidas said she is still hoping to get the pay cut below 10 percent. The council, she said, could discuss the agreement over the next few days.

US Airways, which is seeking $1 billion in sacrifices from all work groups, has asked the bankruptcy judge to throw out the contracts of the flight attendants, passenger service workers, baggage handlers and machinists absent consensual cost-cutting deals ratified by a majority of union members.

The hearings on that motion will continue tomorrow and wrap up Friday.

The judge has said he may not rule until January.

 

[blzr]

United will not get exit financing with the defined pensions in their current state. I don't believe employee concessions will save either of these airlines alone either, but I do know United will at least partially liquidate if the pensions don't go away - as will all the airlines with defined pensions, eventually

Their logic defies explanation. Lets just cut the pensions that our hard working employeed have earned. How about going to your mortgage compay and saying "I am really paying you guys too much and so, for me to get back to profitability, I'm just going to STIFF ya. Yeah, I know, I made some bad choices buying expensive cars and dating women WAY outta my league that took me to the cleaners, so I have to stop paying my mortgage and I hope you'll understand.

That is basically what the airlines are doing and, to me, it seems criminal.

 

[lowecur]

The posturing and wrangling is almost over. UAIR will get what it needs. Do you really believe all those high paid veteran FA's are going to go to work for $18,000 somewhere else?

IAM's is now making a counter proposal, as they are facing loosing 4000 baggage handlers, and 2000 mx. They get it, as the judge, national mediation board, or congress will eventually give them less. Unfortunately, we still have people on this board who are uninformed and don't get it.........boing!

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/04350/426958.stm