It's almost over at USAIR.

[BeCareful!]

OK Everybody, repeat after me:

"Employee concessions have never saved an airline".

I am curious as to the reasons so many people think it will be different at U or UAL, et. al.?

United will not get exit financing with the defined pensions in their current state. I don't believe employee concessions will save either of these airlines alone either, but I do know United will at least partially liquidate if the pensions don't go away - as will all the airlines with defined pensions, eventually.

Skykid-

How do you "know" this? Is this something the UAL negotiators said? Where does all the "knowledge" on this board come from???

 

[skykid]

How do I know United will not get exit financing without dumping the pensions? Because they have been told that from every source of exit financing. With the ATSB backing it could have been done. Without it, exactly 0% chance. This is not insider information. If you add up what United would have to immediately pay to make up payments, you see why this is the case. There is no bank or group of banks that is going to loan a few extra billion to put into the pension funds. No chance.

As far as knowing all airline defined pensions are eventually doomed, all you need is a little common sense to figure that one out. That is the way every industry is going, if they haven't gone that way already. Even airlines that are in relatively good shape currently wont be able to keep up with LCCs that make no payments to defined pensions in the long run.

 

[SOVT]

US Airways, flight attendants agree on cost-cutting pact
Wednesday, December 15, 2004

By Dan Fitzpatrick, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette




After months of back-and-forth bargaining and the threat of a strike, negotiators for US Airways and the flight attendants union have reached an agreement on $94 million in annual costs cuts over the next five years.

The tentative deal, which could help the nation's seventh-largest airline survive its second bankruptcy in two years, will come before the flight attendants' Master Executive Council at 1 p.m. today. The council, meeting in the Washington, D.C. area, can send the agreement back to the bargaining table for more changes or let it out for a ratification vote among US Airways' 5,200 flight attendants.

The $94 million agreement includes pay and benefit cuts but does not address the company's requests to eliminate the flight attendants' pension plan and cut retiree health care coverage. Those requests, worth another $63 million a year, will be dealt with by U.S. Bankruptcy Court Judge Stephen Mitchell, who is overseeing US Airways' case.

Last week, the two sides were still $10 million apart on the pay and benefit cuts. But Teddy Xidas, president-elect of the flight attendants union, said "we have met" the company's number of $94 million. The "proposal is not a good one but it is where we are today."

The proposal includes a 10 percent pay cut.

Xidas, a member of the executive council, said a few "oustanding things" need to be clarified by the company in order for the council to sign off on the agreement, including how the carrier will handle any employee furloughs. Also, Xidas said she is still hoping to get the pay cut below 10 percent. The council, she said, could discuss the agreement over the next few days.

US Airways, which is seeking $1 billion in sacrifices from all work groups, has asked the bankruptcy judge to throw out the contracts of the flight attendants, passenger service workers, baggage handlers and machinists absent consensual cost-cutting deals ratified by a majority of union members.

The hearings on that motion will continue tomorrow and wrap up Friday.

The judge has said he may not rule until January.

 

[blzr]

United will not get exit financing with the defined pensions in their current state. I don't believe employee concessions will save either of these airlines alone either, but I do know United will at least partially liquidate if the pensions don't go away - as will all the airlines with defined pensions, eventually

Their logic defies explanation. Lets just cut the pensions that our hard working employeed have earned. How about going to your mortgage compay and saying "I am really paying you guys too much and so, for me to get back to profitability, I'm just going to STIFF ya. Yeah, I know, I made some bad choices buying expensive cars and dating women WAY outta my league that took me to the cleaners, so I have to stop paying my mortgage and I hope you'll understand.

That is basically what the airlines are doing and, to me, it seems criminal.

 

[lowecur]

The posturing and wrangling is almost over. UAIR will get what it needs. Do you really believe all those high paid veteran FA's are going to go to work for $18,000 somewhere else?

IAM's is now making a counter proposal, as they are facing loosing 4000 baggage handlers, and 2000 mx. They get it, as the judge, national mediation board, or congress will eventually give them less. Unfortunately, we still have people on this board who are uninformed and don't get it.........boing!

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/04350/426958.stm

 

[skykid]

Blzr,

That may seem criminal. I don't like it either. You have to look logically at the options though. Have a chance to survive and no pension, or lose your job and have no pension. Then I get to start at the bottom for the same new crappy pay and benefits at an LCC that guess what, has no defined pension plan. Tell me what the other choice is. All these airlines that only fly domestic (I include Mexico, the islands, and Canada as domestic) with only one type of aircraft and no defined pensions have taken away the pricing power domestically. That is the way it is. I'm not blaming anybody, but none of the legacy carriers are going to keep defined pensions. Now, I have a pretty generous 401k where my employer puts in 9% without me doing anything, and a defined pension. Guess what, I'm realistic enough to know I can't keep that defined pension and still have a job. Common sense.

 

[Boeingman]

I think LowIQer got kicked off the Insurance forum

The posturing and wrangling is almost over. UAIR will get what it needs. Do you really believe all those high paid veteran FA's are going to go to work for $18,000 somewhere else?

IAM's is now making a counter proposal, as they are facing loosing 4000 baggage handlers, and 2000 mx. They get it, as the judge, national mediation board, or congress will eventually give them less. Unfortunately, we still have people on this board who are uninformed and don't get it.........boing!

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/04350/426958.stm

Being told by a tool like you that I am uninformed is actually a complement. Thank you.

Question LowestIQer: Just how long do you think the company can operate with bitter and disgusted employees? Or will you just ignore that one as well?
Speaking of which, your continued hype to profit from those suffering at U is disgusting beyond all belief. You fit the bill perfectly of a slime ball insurance salesman. After all, with all you post here, that is actually all you are. Source considered has been echoed on more than one occasion about you.

BTW, I noticed you never did answer those pointed questions I replied to you earlier about how U will survive. I guess you just couldn't find an appropriate newspaper article to bolster your continued idiotic theories.

Maybe you can run these ideas past those bar flys at the Holiday Inn Express and wow them, but you don't fool anyone here.

 

[MedFlyer]

The posturing and wrangling is almost over. UAIR will get what it needs. Do you really believe all those high paid veteran FA's are going to go to work for $18,000 somewhere else?

IAM's is now making a counter proposal, as they are facing loosing 4000 baggage handlers, and 2000 mx. They get it, as the judge, national mediation board, or congress will eventually give them less. Unfortunately, we still have people on this board who are uninformed and don't get it.........boing!

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/04350/426958.stm

The problem is that even if US gets all the cost concessions they need...they're still in trouble on the revenue side. US has continually failed (by a mile) to meet its revenue projections. This is a problem all the majors are facing (and some LCC's), but US has been the worst.

If US doesn't find a way to improve the revenue side of the picture, the cost cuts will only serve to delay the inevitable.

 

[lowecur]

Being told by a tool like you that I am uninformed is actually a complement. Thank you.

Question LowestIQer: Just how long do you think the company can operate with bitter and disgusted employees? How long has your marriage lasted? About that long. Or will you just ignore that one as well? Speaking of which, your continued hype to profit from those suffering at U is disgusting beyond all belief. Very weak. Half a loaf is better than no loaf, you dolt. Stop pretending you actually care about the employees at UAIR. Your main concern is that the precious bar is being lowered, not the employees at UAIR. You fit the bill perfectly of a slime ball insurance salesman. After all, with all you post here, that is actually all you are. Source considered has been echoed on more than one occasion about you.

BTW, I noticed you never did answer those pointed questions I replied to you earlier about how U will survive. It's really not all that complicated, Boing. You are watching the morphing from the outside. UAIR is slowly being transformed into an LCC. Lakefield and Bronner have done a masterful job of dealing with people like you. They realize that their biggest problems would be Union leadership. They are slowly breaking that stranglehold, and will eventually have a cost structure where they will make money. When the business model is broken, you break it down to a new foundation, and then you begin to build the new model. Now if you believe UAIR is no different than they were a year ago (not including the payroll reductions), then I guess you just don't get it. I guess you just couldn't find an appropriate newspaper article to bolster your continued idiotic theories.

Maybe you can run these ideas past those bar flys at the Holiday Inn Express and wow them, but you don't fool anyone here.

.....

 

[lowecur]

The problem is that even if US gets all the cost concessions they need...they're still in trouble on the revenue side. US has continually failed (by a mile) to meet its revenue projections. This is a problem all the majors are facing (and some LCC's), but US has been the worst. True, but that is due to the BK, Flyi, and projected strikes looming over their head. Eventually, they all will pass.

If US doesn't find a way to improve the revenue side of the picture, the cost cuts will only serve to delay the inevitable.

Let's just say we disagree.

 

[Tristar]

. . . Your main concern is that the precious bar is being lowered . . .
. . . Lakefield and Bronner have done a masterful job of dealing with people like you. They realize that their biggest problems would be Union leadership. They are slowly breaking that stranglehold . . .
. . . Now if you believe UAIR is no different than they were a year ago (not including the payroll reductions), then I guess you just don't get it . . .

A rather Lorenzo-esque quote. I wish no ill towards those at U, but the continued slide of working conditions and pay scales is eroding 50+ years of work by ALPA (and others) to make being an airline pilot worthwhile. Eventually, you won't attract the people you want to fly your aircraft, since they can have a better life managing a burger stand. Instead, you'll get those who _can't_ manage a burger stand. Accidents will increase, public confidence will decrease, and an important piece of the national economic engine will falter. It's not good for anyone, and it's very bad for some of us right now. Regardless, I hope that if I end up out of a job (a very real possibility right now), that the quality of life and pay is maintained so that someday, somewhere else, I'll find a job worth coming back to.

You are partially correct in one regard - I believe things are significantly different than a year ago. Employee morale is even lower than it was then, and it was very low then. I don't blame them, I understand where they are coming from - they've been lied to, misled, and mismanaged by management for years now. Management does just fine, cashing our their parachutes and moving on to the next future train wreck, and the employees are left amid the rubble to try and carry on. I wouldn't blame them for burning what's left to the ground, it would be the first time in years they've had any control over thier lives and the direction of the company.

 

[dlredline]

The problem is that even if US gets all the cost concessions they need...they're still in trouble on the revenue side. US has continually failed (by a mile) to meet its revenue projections. This is a problem all the majors are facing (and some LCC's), but US has been the worst.

If US doesn't find a way to improve the revenue side of the picture, the cost cuts will only serve to delay the inevitable.

The AFA tentative agreement, if ratified, is indeed positive news for USAirways. But that genie ain't completely back in the bottle just yet. Still unaddressed is $63 million in pension and retirement medical benefits that USAirways desperately wants from AFA, and will allow Judge Mitchell to decide. Also, there is a large pension and lease payment due in January. And don't forget that negotiations still remain with IAM. All these ducks need to be in a row before the really hard part, obtaining the $250 million exit financing from a very skeptical financial market, and with a route structure whose revenue stream needed a flu shot years ago.

I admit this is good news for USAirways, but it's still way too early for USAirways (or anyone else) to be taking a knee at the end of the game and claiming victory.

Red

 

[lowecur]

A rather Lorenzo-esque quote. I wish no ill towards those at U, but the continued slide of working conditions and pay scales is eroding 50+ years of work by ALPA (and others) to make being an airline pilot worthwhile. Eventually, you won't attract the people you want to fly your aircraft, since they can have a better life managing a burger stand. Instead, you'll get those who _can't_ manage a burger stand. Accidents will increase, public confidence will decrease, and an important piece of the national economic engine will falter. It's not good for anyone, and it's very bad for some of us right now. Regardless, I hope that if I end up out of a job (a very real possibility right now), that the quality of life and pay is maintained so that someday, somewhere else, I'll find a job worth coming back to.

You are partially correct in one regard - I believe things are significantly different than a year ago. Employee morale is even lower than it was then, and it was very low then. I don't blame them, I understand where they are coming from - they've been lied to, misled, and mismanaged by management for years now. Management does just fine, cashing our their parachutes and moving on to the next future train wreck, and the employees are left amid the rubble to try and carry on. I wouldn't blame them for burning what's left to the ground, it would be the first time in years they've had any control over thier lives and the direction of the company.

I don't think you can compare the Frank Lorenzo era to what's going on today. Unfortunately, people don't seem to understand this perfect storm of terrorism, high cost structures, and the increased cost of oil, have made it impossible to work this out over a period of years as in the past. Anyone of the previous reasons would have caused the eventual changes being made, but all three within a short time frame have sealed the future.

What goes around comes around. The cycle will start all over again and in 10 years payroll will be out of sight, mgt will be paying themselves outlandish bonus', and new carriers will be ready to take the dive into this blackhole of uncertain profits.

 

[Boeingman]

How long has your marriage lasted? About that long

Most likely a lot longer than yours. Of course, I am married to a woman.

Very weak. Half a loaf is better than no loaf, you dolt.Stop pretending you actually care about the employees at UAIR. Your main concern is that the precious bar is being lowered, not the employees at UAIR.

Excellent evasion of the question but so very easy to pick apart. I never pretend about anything since I don’t have to. Not once have we ever seen empathy from you regarding the plight of U’s employees. We are only treated ad nauseam to your continued limp member opinions of the ERJ and how you can benefit from cost cuts to pump your product’s stock ( and what ever else you pump).

Since you’re are such an outsider of the industry, even though you continue to pretend to be a insider, the bar is of a great concern. Of course since you just sell insurance, how could anyone expect you to fully grasp those ramifications on our careers?

It's really not all that complicated, Captain Boeingman. You are watching the morphing from the outside. UAIR is slowly being transformed into an LCC.

Real LCC carriers make money based on efficient operations with skilled management employing novel ideas. Your bent version of U as a LCC is a joke since the methods fitting this square peg in a round hole is only obtained from continued attacks on long term employees with a significant part of their lives invested.

Incidentally, how many A-330’s and 767’s do LCC have? How many International routes do LCC's fly? How many 25 plus year employees do the current batch of LCC's have? Yes the LCC mantra. The call sign of the ignorant.

akefield and Bronner have done a masterful job of dealing with people like you.
They realize that their biggest problems would be Union leadership.

The financials surely reflect what a masterful job they have done. If people like me are the problem like they said before in BK saga #1 why isn’t the company making money now? A masterful job? I wonder how the bankruptcy abuse translates into motivated and dedicated employees? The folks I know at U say …not very well. So whose opinion do we take here? Current employees and people like myself on this board who eat, breath and live airlines? Or some 2 bit Insurance hustler with an axe to grind?

It’s to bad B & L have spent so much time trying to break labor instead of doing things like concentrating on a solid business plan, increasing their market share, fighting competition etc. etc.

They are slowly breaking that stranglehold, and will eventually have a cost structure where they will make money.

So the truth comes out. Again, wasn’t this the hue and cry during BK1. It has been shown U can have no labor costs and still lose money. Union strangleholds exist and are created and morphed due to shortsighted vindictive management focused on outdated and ill advised labor relations.

When the business model is broken, you break it down to a new foundation, and then you begin to build the new model.

LOL,here comes the RJ speech. The foundation you are talking about is being built upon very bitter and extremely resentful employees who have witnessed amateurs like you ruin their company and walk away with millions.

Now if you believe UAIR is no different than they were a year ago (not including the payroll reductions), then I guess you just don't get it.

No you don’t get it. They are losing more money than a year ago, they are in their second bk, they have unreachable financial covenants set by GECAS by the ex CFO own admission….Shall I continue? Given this you still believe they are no different Who doesn’t get it?



Do you intentionally quote your posts to make it difficult to respond to? You’re the only one on the board who does it so you must be afraid someone will take the time to discard your theories like a used handi wipe.

Luckily for you and unfortunately for us, the moderators don’t ban for stupidity

 

[Propsync]

It is easy to say U mgt is terrible. How about somebody posting what they should have done these last few years?

Something, that's what they should have done. Telling your employees there's no PLAN B after the merger failed probably didn't help. Not choosing to close PIT sooner probably didn't help. Thinking RJ's and labor cuts are going to do the trick were bad ideas as well. United better take note and bail on Dulles and/or South America. My money is on the FA's walking if they get the chance.

 

[skykid]

Most likely a lot longer than yours. Of course, I am married to a woman.

Classic.

Propsync, my point is there is not much they can do. U has a limited route structure stuck in a market that is getting tougher by the day. You listed some monday morning quarterback criticism, somebody else mentioned working together with labor for peace and prosperity - I would like to know what that plan B you said they didn't have should have been.

 

[Ty Webb]

Most likely a lot longer than yours. Of course, I am married to a woman.



Do you intentionally quote your posts to make it difficult to respond to? You’re the only one on the board who does it so you must be afraid someone will take the time to discard your theories like a used handi wipe.

Luckily for you and unfortunately for us, the moderators don’t ban for stupidity

Boeingman, thanks for a great post. The situation would be laughable, if it weren't for people's careers we are talking about. Best of luck to all those involved.

 

[lowecur]

Most likely a lot longer than yours.

This is the reaction at the crashpad.

 

[lowecur]

Boeingman, thanks for a great post. The situation would be laughable, if it weren't for people's careers we are talking about. Best of luck to all those involved.

Naananananananananananananananananananana, Nunununununununununununununununununununununununu

Remember, a broken clock is right twice a day.

 

[Smoking Man]

Naananananananananananananananananananana, Nunununununununununununununununununununununununu

Remember, a broken clock is right twice a day.

Not if it is a digital clock and you smash the display!