Its all up to Comair now!

[JoeMerchant]

Drew,

You're arguing semantics, and trying to make generalizations based on something you don't know.

ALPA told its pilots it had a $14 million offer. It does not. It made a $9 million offer. This isn't opinion, it is written clearly in ALPA's first negotiation comparison email. They included $5 million in previous concessions, and then repeatedly told the pilots they were offering a full $14 million. What about that is honest?

National obviously has a strong hand in what just happened. We're in their pocket for $2 million, and were just led off a cliff for it. Sometimes it isn't just the company trying to screw you.

BVT, you have hit the nail on the head. ALPA national is now running things at the tables of ASA, CMR, and Mesaba. As usual, they are a day late and a dollar short. ALPA has decided to "hold the line" now, unless you are a mainline carrier. DAL, NWA, and USAir have negotiated concessionary rates on the 70-90 seat aircraft that are lower than Horizon, CMR, ASA, and others. This is being done to "recapture" the flying at the mainline level. If a regional did this it would be called "concessions for growth". But when a mainline does it they call it "recapturing flying".

There is a lot of "pushing others of cliff" going on now to benefit others. Those that are pushed off the cliff will not benefit from the sacrifice they make. Some of us will join CCAir, and ACA as ALPA sacrifices.....

 

[bvt1151]

That'd be all fine and well, Joe, but these sacrifices were for nothing other than satisfying ego. ACA's demise had nothing to do with ALPA. CCAir was a complete ALPA failure. Comair will do nothing other than reinforce the idea that wages must stay low or planes will leave. Coex's refusal hasn't done a thing for the industry as a whole, and we're proof of that.

If indeed the reason was for mainlines to "recapture" their flying, don't you think the aircraft would go to mainline, rather than lower-paid regionals? We'll see what happens, but I don't think anyone is going to be suprised.

If the name of the game is to keep the number of airlines low, why did they roll over for GeaxJets and Compass, and why didn't they move for single lists when the Comair pilots were pushing for it (CMR-ASA)? ALPA National responded with a "well there's nothing we can do" during that push.

I agree with you, but question what the "sacrifices" are for. Are they for the better of the industry, or are they simply for the higher-paid ALPA members to say "I told you so." There's a lot of disturbing comments coming from the mainline contingent that will make your skin crawl.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

The only thing we have to fear is fear itself!

 

[JoeMerchant]

That'd be all fine and well, Joe, but these sacrifices were for nothing other than satisfying ego. ACA's demise had nothing to do with ALPA. CCAir was a complete ALPA failure. Comair will do nothing other than reinforce the idea that wages must stay low or planes will leave. Coex's refusal hasn't done a thing for the industry as a whole, and we're proof of that.

If indeed the reason was for mainlines to "recapture" their flying, don't you think the aircraft would go to mainline, rather than lower-paid regionals? We'll see what happens, but I don't think anyone is going to be suprised.

If the name of the game is to keep the number of airlines low, why did they roll over for GeaxJets and Compass, and why didn't they move for single lists when the Comair pilots were pushing for it (CMR-ASA)? ALPA National responded with a "well there's nothing we can do" during that push.

I agree with you, but question what the "sacrifices" are for. Are they for the better of the industry, or are they simply for the higher-paid ALPA members to say "I told you so." There's a lot of disturbing comments coming from the mainline contingent that will make your skin crawl.

The "sacrifices" are being made by the regional pilots for the benefit of the mainline pilots. It's not a "fine and well" if you are one of those being sacrificed for the greater good. Besides, it is probably too late anyway.

ACA (both management and ACA ALPA) were the first to hold the line and refuse the "pay to play" game. What was their reward? DW gave them a eulogy and then their FAA certificate was used to start up the newest and cheapest member of the NWA portfolio - COMPASS! The mainline pilots who fly at COMPASS will be cheaper than Mesa.

 

[bvt1151]

The "sacrifices" are being made by the regional pilots for the benefit of the mainline pilots. It's not a "fine and well" if you are one of those being sacrificed for the greater good. Besides, it is probably too late anyway.

ACA (both management and ACA ALPA) were the first to hold the line and refuse the "pay to play" game. What was their reward? DW gave them a eulogy and then their FAA certificate was used to start up the newest and cheapest member of the NWA portfolio - COMPASS! The mainline pilots who fly at COMPASS will be cheaper than Mesa.

I don't want to sound confrontational, because I agree with what your saying to a point. At least there's a solid discussion rather than the usual name calling.

Here's the problem I have with ALPA's tactics. They are sacrificing the highest paid pilot groups for the good of the lowest paid. If they were really interested in using sacrifices to improve the industry as a whole, Mesa would be the one sacrificed, not the highest paid pilot groups (ACA, Comair, Coex). That being said, Compass is not a part of mainline, if it ever becomes anything. At best its a jets for jobs type of arrangement, and in reality its an alter ego that will only put pressure on NWA payrates for years to come. I largely question any ALPA strategy that starts with the creation of an alter-ego carrier.

I agree with everyone that one list and one contract is the only solid answer, but its not going to be at Comair rates. Nobody is willing to admit that in order to achieve this, some people are going to have to take serious concessions at first. Its a "pay now for the reward later" type of situation. I would not be opposed to an agreement with ASA that whatever they negotiate, we sign the same (I'm exaggerating the simplicity, but the thought process of a single contract has to start somewhere).

Most people know the answer (one contract), they just don't want to do what it takes to get to it. Comair's latest "stand" only illustrates that there is no effort in any form to achieve this. They still subscribe to seperate contracts and "the bar" in the hopes that progressively better contracts will improve others. The problem is that the opposite is true as well...progressively worse contracts will hurt others. If we're willing to play on this bet, we'd better be willing to accept both the upsides and the downsides. I'm sick of the progression moving the wrong way and am ready to do what it takes to change the rules of the game to what we dictate (single contract) not what management has been able to dictate (whipsaw).


ALPA has shown no interest in this. They say "we just won't play the whipsaw game" but ALPA doesn't play that game, they get played. If you decide to sit out of the game, you lose by default. Its time to change the rules and play our game. The question is whether those who are screaming "sacrifice" when others make it are willing to make a sacrifice themselves.

I'm not optimistic.

 

[CheapFlyer]

They say "we just won't play the whipsaw game" but ALPA doesn't play that game, they get played. If you decide to sit out of the game, you lose by default. Its time to change the rules and play our game.

I agree with you 100%. Unfortunately ALPA National doesn't have any better games to play.

I'm not optimistic.

I don't think many Comair pilots are. Skywest, Mesa, and CHQ pilots are all salivating at the potential of getting new aircraft.

Management is winning this game and ALPA National has no more "plays" in their book. Not looking good.

-CF

 

[bvt1151]

Cheap,

You make a great point. This was a huge win... just not for ALPA. That leaves only management, specifically Mesa, Skywest, and CHQ.

Oh well, at least somebody's a winner. Perhaps next time we could try to make it the pilots rather than the lowest paying managers.

 

[DrewBlows]

ALPA told its pilots it had a $14 million offer. It does not. It made a $9 million offer. This isn't opinion, it is written clearly in ALPA's first negotiation comparison email. They included $5 million in previous concessions, and then repeatedly told the pilots they were offering a full $14 million. What about that is honest?

I'm looking at a document entitled ALPA - Company Comparison Chart. The very first item is in the Economic section. The ALPA position says "Forego 4.5% wage snapback provision in February 2005 LOA, ALPA to receive full credit for lost wage increase". The company position says "Forego 4.5% wage snapback provision in February 2005 LOA, ALPA not credited for any lost wage increase". This document was widely distributed via email, and ALPA Family awareness meetings. It is the only document from either side that actually breaks down the differences between the company position and ALPAs, so that Joe Pilot can see how each proposal would affect him. It's straight forward and easy to read, and if you haven't seen it you haven't been looking. I'll say it again, because it seems to be the basis of your argument, THE VERY FIRST ITEM ADDRESSED THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN HOW THE CONCESSIONS ARE CALCULATED. Again I'll ask, who is being dishonost?

 

[bvt1151]

What is the union advertising their concessions to be?

What are they actually?

There you go. Somebody has to make it look like we weren't just bought out by national for $2 million.

 

[surplus1]

Gentlemen you waste your time by arguing about who gave what and who asked for what. That is really not the problem.

Delta has the power to do what it wants. If Delta wants to keep Comair it is very easy for Delta to guarantee that Comair will get X amount of flying in exchange for Y amount of concessions; then present it to the BK court for approval. They have NOT done that and according to our MEC they have indicated they have no intention of doing that..

That means that no matter what the pilots give Delta today, whether its 10 million or 20 million, the very next day they can still (and probably will) award the RFP to some other airline and not to Comair. That means we eat a big pay cut for naught.

It's not the dollars that are causing the breakdown. It is the demand by Delta that the Comair employees give their all to Delta, and Delta gives the employees zero, nothing, in return.

What exactly do CMR pilots have to gain if we give Delta the concessions that they demand? The answer is nothing!! There is no guarantee whatever that CMR will exist tomorrow if we make concessions.

What they are asking us to do is give up a major portion of our compensation while we wait for them to put us out of business. They want us to buy our own liquidation. That would be stupid.

If they want concessions all they have to do is cut a deal that awards the RFP to CMR in exchange for the concession. Don't promise it, their promises are already proven to be false. Put it in writing and get the BK Court to sign off on it.

No promise, whether written or not, is valid until AFTER it is approved by the court. CMR employees should make no agreement unless it is contingent upon award of the RFP and approval by the court.

If they won't do that then they really have no interest in keeping CMR and they should get NO DEAL. It's as simple as that.

Delta knows exactly what we would have to do to "win" this so-called bid. When they guarantee its award, we can then decide to take it or leave it, contingent on the court’s approval.

If we give them our money in exchange for promises they will do exactly what they did before - break the promises and take our money and run. WE will be left up the creek without the paddle and they will be laughing and toasting with champagne.

If Comair people have to live with the prospect of having their operations farmed out to others regardless of what we give, then there is no reason to even consider concessions, let alone give them.

This is no game. They are not bluffing; we should not be bluffing either. If they want our money then give us long-term job security. Otherwise - Game over.