Its all up to Comair now!

[V-1]

The RFP deadline has put the pressure solely on Comair management to put together a competitive bid. Comair management has thus far failed to achieve the cost reductions they claim are necessary to be competitive...despite the Comair ALPA MEC proposing a $14 million concession package. It certainly seems Comair's management is not serious about meeting the RFP deadline with a competitive bid.

 

[inthewind]

Our management team is laughable. They are blaming this all on the pilots. Comair's management did absolutely nothing all summer, then all of a sudden they want us to "negotiate".

The managemnet is the reason for this game of brinksmanship, not the pilots. The company knew along time ago they were not going to get the full amount from the flight attendants and they dragged thier feet. They are the sole reason we are in this precarious position.

Management has refused to negotiate. If the situation was as dire as they say, wouldn't you want to get some kinda of concession? They refuse to budge off 16.3ish million. If they negotiated I'm sure they could get the union to bite on a 12-14 million dollar deal (wether it would be ratified is another story). Isn't something better than nothing? Same BS as Mesaba.

I got the resume ready and ready to apply to the other regionals and if that doesn't work out, back to college.

All of this is the same thing that we heard at Indy! Sorry that you guys are suffering the same crap as we did. If we could shut down Riddle and Gulfstream the whole industry would win!

 

[bvt1151]

despite the Comair ALPA MEC proposing a $14 million concession package.

ALPA is proposing $9 million...almost half of last winter's offer of $17.3.

 

[Jack-O-Lantern]

Jack,

The vast majority of pilots here agree, including myself. We've been stabbed in the back, repeatedly, and have suffered greatly because of it.

I surely understand, and feel your pain. I believe the only way to stop this is through more correspondence and unity between our mec's and a national backing on that front unparralled to anything they've done so far.And now rather than later! Good luck to you guys!

 

[bvt1151]

I surely understand, and feel your pain. I believe the only way to stop this is through more correspondence and unity between our mec's and a national backing on that front unparralled to anything they've done so far.And now rather than later! Good luck to you guys!

I agree. Problem is, we've become extremely cautious of anything coming out of National. Haven't received much support other than a $2 million check, along with the press release for credit. Public support is one thing, but privately other things are happening.

 

[DrewBlows]

ALPA has NOT proposed $14 million. They've proposed 9, and want credit for the other 5 from the pay freeze two years ago.

This statement is ignorent at best, dishonest at worst.

ALPA and Comair are measureing thier concessions differently. The company is measuring concessions based on one month (December '05) at the contract rates at that time. ALPA is measuring concessions based on the contract as it is written in the future tense. That is, the difference between if a deal is signed verses if no deal is signed. The numbers roughly match up if you factor this in.

That said, I really don't care what the company or the union say the total concessions are worth. I have seen what the company is offering and what the union is offering. I would give what the union is offering. I wouldn't give what the company is offering (29% pay cut to second year FO).

 

[imacdog]

I think if the company really wanted a deal they would have gotten one by now. As it is, whatever is going to happen to us, will happen to us regardless of what happens at the negotiating table. I'll be glad when I finally get out of here.

 

[bvt1151]

This statement is ignorent at best, dishonest at worst.

ALPA and Comair are measureing thier concessions differently. The company is measuring concessions based on one month (December '05) at the contract rates at that time. ALPA is measuring concessions based on the contract as it is written in the future tense. That is, the difference between if a deal is signed verses if no deal is signed. The numbers roughly match up if you factor this in.

That said, I really don't care what the company or the union say the total concessions are worth. I have seen what the company is offering and what the union is offering. I would give what the union is offering. I wouldn't give what the company is offering (29% pay cut to second year FO).

Actually no. The union reduced their concession offer from the pilot agreed $17.3 million to $9 million. They then wanted "credit" for concessions taken years prior. This is not an actual "offer," just creative reasoning they're telling the pilots.

It has nothing to do with calculating into the future, and only deals with what was negotiated (and agreed to and signed) in the past (early 2005).

What is the difference between ALPA's offer nine months ago and now? $3 million? No, 8. They didn't want "credit" when they were calculating the $17.3 million then, why are they now?

Kinda makes you wonder why they'd mislead us like that.

 

[DrewBlows]

Actually no. The union reduced their concession offer from the pilot agreed $17.3 million to $9 million. They then wanted "credit" for concessions taken years prior. This is not an actual "offer," just creative reasoning they're telling the pilots.

It has nothing to do with calculating into the future, and only deals with what was negotiated (and agreed to and signed) in the past (early 2005).

What is the difference between ALPA's offer nine months ago and now? $3 million? No, 8. They didn't want "credit" when they were calculating the $17.3 million then, why are they now?

Kinda makes you wonder why they'd mislead us like that.

Again, I'm not sure if you are ignorant or dishonost. The MEC never "offered" $17.3. The company proposed a "last, best, final offer", which happened to be the same as the first offer, under the guise that Delta would run out of cash in February and have to start liquidating Comair. For some reason the MEC let the pilots vote on this proposal (this is a whole different discussion).

Here we are 10 months later, with zero concessions from the three organized labor groups, but Comair is still in business. If the company would have bargained in good faith to begin with they could have been reaping the benefits of concessions for nearly a year now, instead they got nothing. Who is misleading who?

Bvt, if your profile is correct you are an FO, which means you support the company proposal because you think it will bring growth aircraft. Based on this I'm placing you square in the "ignorant" category.

 

[bvt1151]

Drew,

You're arguing semantics, and trying to make generalizations based on something you don't know.

ALPA told its pilots it had a $14 million offer. It does not. It made a $9 million offer. This isn't opinion, it is written clearly in ALPA's first negotiation comparison email. They included $5 million in previous concessions, and then repeatedly told the pilots they were offering a full $14 million. What about that is honest?

National obviously has a strong hand in what just happened. We're in their pocket for $2 million, and were just led off a cliff for it. Sometimes it isn't just the company trying to screw you.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Drew,

You're arguing semantics, and trying to make generalizations based on something you don't know.

ALPA told its pilots it had a $14 million offer. It does not. It made a $9 million offer. This isn't opinion, it is written clearly in ALPA's first negotiation comparison email. They included $5 million in previous concessions, and then repeatedly told the pilots they were offering a full $14 million. What about that is honest?

National obviously has a strong hand in what just happened. We're in their pocket for $2 million, and were just led off a cliff for it. Sometimes it isn't just the company trying to screw you.

BVT, you have hit the nail on the head. ALPA national is now running things at the tables of ASA, CMR, and Mesaba. As usual, they are a day late and a dollar short. ALPA has decided to "hold the line" now, unless you are a mainline carrier. DAL, NWA, and USAir have negotiated concessionary rates on the 70-90 seat aircraft that are lower than Horizon, CMR, ASA, and others. This is being done to "recapture" the flying at the mainline level. If a regional did this it would be called "concessions for growth". But when a mainline does it they call it "recapturing flying".

There is a lot of "pushing others of cliff" going on now to benefit others. Those that are pushed off the cliff will not benefit from the sacrifice they make. Some of us will join CCAir, and ACA as ALPA sacrifices.....

 

[bvt1151]

That'd be all fine and well, Joe, but these sacrifices were for nothing other than satisfying ego. ACA's demise had nothing to do with ALPA. CCAir was a complete ALPA failure. Comair will do nothing other than reinforce the idea that wages must stay low or planes will leave. Coex's refusal hasn't done a thing for the industry as a whole, and we're proof of that.

If indeed the reason was for mainlines to "recapture" their flying, don't you think the aircraft would go to mainline, rather than lower-paid regionals? We'll see what happens, but I don't think anyone is going to be suprised.

If the name of the game is to keep the number of airlines low, why did they roll over for GeaxJets and Compass, and why didn't they move for single lists when the Comair pilots were pushing for it (CMR-ASA)? ALPA National responded with a "well there's nothing we can do" during that push.

I agree with you, but question what the "sacrifices" are for. Are they for the better of the industry, or are they simply for the higher-paid ALPA members to say "I told you so." There's a lot of disturbing comments coming from the mainline contingent that will make your skin crawl.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

The only thing we have to fear is fear itself!

 

[JoeMerchant]

That'd be all fine and well, Joe, but these sacrifices were for nothing other than satisfying ego. ACA's demise had nothing to do with ALPA. CCAir was a complete ALPA failure. Comair will do nothing other than reinforce the idea that wages must stay low or planes will leave. Coex's refusal hasn't done a thing for the industry as a whole, and we're proof of that.

If indeed the reason was for mainlines to "recapture" their flying, don't you think the aircraft would go to mainline, rather than lower-paid regionals? We'll see what happens, but I don't think anyone is going to be suprised.

If the name of the game is to keep the number of airlines low, why did they roll over for GeaxJets and Compass, and why didn't they move for single lists when the Comair pilots were pushing for it (CMR-ASA)? ALPA National responded with a "well there's nothing we can do" during that push.

I agree with you, but question what the "sacrifices" are for. Are they for the better of the industry, or are they simply for the higher-paid ALPA members to say "I told you so." There's a lot of disturbing comments coming from the mainline contingent that will make your skin crawl.

The "sacrifices" are being made by the regional pilots for the benefit of the mainline pilots. It's not a "fine and well" if you are one of those being sacrificed for the greater good. Besides, it is probably too late anyway.

ACA (both management and ACA ALPA) were the first to hold the line and refuse the "pay to play" game. What was their reward? DW gave them a eulogy and then their FAA certificate was used to start up the newest and cheapest member of the NWA portfolio - COMPASS! The mainline pilots who fly at COMPASS will be cheaper than Mesa.

 

[bvt1151]

The "sacrifices" are being made by the regional pilots for the benefit of the mainline pilots. It's not a "fine and well" if you are one of those being sacrificed for the greater good. Besides, it is probably too late anyway.

ACA (both management and ACA ALPA) were the first to hold the line and refuse the "pay to play" game. What was their reward? DW gave them a eulogy and then their FAA certificate was used to start up the newest and cheapest member of the NWA portfolio - COMPASS! The mainline pilots who fly at COMPASS will be cheaper than Mesa.

I don't want to sound confrontational, because I agree with what your saying to a point. At least there's a solid discussion rather than the usual name calling.

Here's the problem I have with ALPA's tactics. They are sacrificing the highest paid pilot groups for the good of the lowest paid. If they were really interested in using sacrifices to improve the industry as a whole, Mesa would be the one sacrificed, not the highest paid pilot groups (ACA, Comair, Coex). That being said, Compass is not a part of mainline, if it ever becomes anything. At best its a jets for jobs type of arrangement, and in reality its an alter ego that will only put pressure on NWA payrates for years to come. I largely question any ALPA strategy that starts with the creation of an alter-ego carrier.

I agree with everyone that one list and one contract is the only solid answer, but its not going to be at Comair rates. Nobody is willing to admit that in order to achieve this, some people are going to have to take serious concessions at first. Its a "pay now for the reward later" type of situation. I would not be opposed to an agreement with ASA that whatever they negotiate, we sign the same (I'm exaggerating the simplicity, but the thought process of a single contract has to start somewhere).

Most people know the answer (one contract), they just don't want to do what it takes to get to it. Comair's latest "stand" only illustrates that there is no effort in any form to achieve this. They still subscribe to seperate contracts and "the bar" in the hopes that progressively better contracts will improve others. The problem is that the opposite is true as well...progressively worse contracts will hurt others. If we're willing to play on this bet, we'd better be willing to accept both the upsides and the downsides. I'm sick of the progression moving the wrong way and am ready to do what it takes to change the rules of the game to what we dictate (single contract) not what management has been able to dictate (whipsaw).


ALPA has shown no interest in this. They say "we just won't play the whipsaw game" but ALPA doesn't play that game, they get played. If you decide to sit out of the game, you lose by default. Its time to change the rules and play our game. The question is whether those who are screaming "sacrifice" when others make it are willing to make a sacrifice themselves.

I'm not optimistic.

 

[CheapFlyer]

They say "we just won't play the whipsaw game" but ALPA doesn't play that game, they get played. If you decide to sit out of the game, you lose by default. Its time to change the rules and play our game.

I agree with you 100%. Unfortunately ALPA National doesn't have any better games to play.

I'm not optimistic.

I don't think many Comair pilots are. Skywest, Mesa, and CHQ pilots are all salivating at the potential of getting new aircraft.

Management is winning this game and ALPA National has no more "plays" in their book. Not looking good.

-CF

 

[bvt1151]

Cheap,

You make a great point. This was a huge win... just not for ALPA. That leaves only management, specifically Mesa, Skywest, and CHQ.

Oh well, at least somebody's a winner. Perhaps next time we could try to make it the pilots rather than the lowest paying managers.

 

[DrewBlows]

ALPA told its pilots it had a $14 million offer. It does not. It made a $9 million offer. This isn't opinion, it is written clearly in ALPA's first negotiation comparison email. They included $5 million in previous concessions, and then repeatedly told the pilots they were offering a full $14 million. What about that is honest?

I'm looking at a document entitled ALPA - Company Comparison Chart. The very first item is in the Economic section. The ALPA position says "Forego 4.5% wage snapback provision in February 2005 LOA, ALPA to receive full credit for lost wage increase". The company position says "Forego 4.5% wage snapback provision in February 2005 LOA, ALPA not credited for any lost wage increase". This document was widely distributed via email, and ALPA Family awareness meetings. It is the only document from either side that actually breaks down the differences between the company position and ALPAs, so that Joe Pilot can see how each proposal would affect him. It's straight forward and easy to read, and if you haven't seen it you haven't been looking. I'll say it again, because it seems to be the basis of your argument, THE VERY FIRST ITEM ADDRESSED THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN HOW THE CONCESSIONS ARE CALCULATED. Again I'll ask, who is being dishonost?

 

[bvt1151]

What is the union advertising their concessions to be?

What are they actually?

There you go. Somebody has to make it look like we weren't just bought out by national for $2 million.

 

[surplus1]

Gentlemen you waste your time by arguing about who gave what and who asked for what. That is really not the problem.

Delta has the power to do what it wants. If Delta wants to keep Comair it is very easy for Delta to guarantee that Comair will get X amount of flying in exchange for Y amount of concessions; then present it to the BK court for approval. They have NOT done that and according to our MEC they have indicated they have no intention of doing that..

That means that no matter what the pilots give Delta today, whether its 10 million or 20 million, the very next day they can still (and probably will) award the RFP to some other airline and not to Comair. That means we eat a big pay cut for naught.

It's not the dollars that are causing the breakdown. It is the demand by Delta that the Comair employees give their all to Delta, and Delta gives the employees zero, nothing, in return.

What exactly do CMR pilots have to gain if we give Delta the concessions that they demand? The answer is nothing!! There is no guarantee whatever that CMR will exist tomorrow if we make concessions.

What they are asking us to do is give up a major portion of our compensation while we wait for them to put us out of business. They want us to buy our own liquidation. That would be stupid.

If they want concessions all they have to do is cut a deal that awards the RFP to CMR in exchange for the concession. Don't promise it, their promises are already proven to be false. Put it in writing and get the BK Court to sign off on it.

No promise, whether written or not, is valid until AFTER it is approved by the court. CMR employees should make no agreement unless it is contingent upon award of the RFP and approval by the court.

If they won't do that then they really have no interest in keeping CMR and they should get NO DEAL. It's as simple as that.

Delta knows exactly what we would have to do to "win" this so-called bid. When they guarantee its award, we can then decide to take it or leave it, contingent on the court’s approval.

If we give them our money in exchange for promises they will do exactly what they did before - break the promises and take our money and run. WE will be left up the creek without the paddle and they will be laughing and toasting with champagne.

If Comair people have to live with the prospect of having their operations farmed out to others regardless of what we give, then there is no reason to even consider concessions, let alone give them.

This is no game. They are not bluffing; we should not be bluffing either. If they want our money then give us long-term job security. Otherwise - Game over.