Is this profession in peril?

[pilotyip]

Oh I forgot this is a pilot board

Contract '00 had nothing to do with these problems. But I should have expected such nonsense from someone that sits behind a desk at YIP and issues memos for a living.

That’s right the down turn in late 2000 and early 2001 load factors, particularly first class had nothing to do with the slow down actions of early 2000,. UAL was in trouble before 9-11. This was reported by McGraw Hill in Aviation Daily, that is reality, but it doesn’t fit here because pilots can never be a problem only management. BTW I don’t issue memos, I think we have DO’s secretary to do that. I recruit, manage pilot staffing, and train/Check DA-20 pilots. Fly about 200 hours a year for free cause it is fun.

 

[PCL_128]

<font color="black">That’s right the down turn in late 2000 and early 2001 load factors, particularly first class had nothing to do with the slow down actions of early 2000,.

Had management come to the table and bargained in good faith rather than focusing on Avolar and a USAirways merger, then there never would have been a slow down. Line pilots don't like slow downs. They're a pain in the ass. They only resort to these actions when they become extremely frustrated with management intransigence.

 

[Lear70]

I attribute a lot of that behavior to "shell shock", or "Post-Traumatic Regional Pilot Stress Syndrome". The flying, lines, schedules, and overnights are so much better at airTran that almost every regional the guys came from, that they are basically just "happy to be here".

Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed the job, too, but realize that $40,000 a year doesn't pay my bills. Yeah, I signed on for it, expecting a 2-3 year upgrade, then had aircraft delivery deferments, people who didn't go back to their Legacy carriers (who'd have thought the UAir arbitration would go so badly), and upgrades keep spiraling just out of reach... THAT was one of the main reasons I got involved.

Unfortunately, guys just don't seem to care. They just like their trips, are content to hold out for CA at existing pay rates, and don't want to "rock the boat".

The VOTE NO and recall campaigns were successful because a few people stood up and LEAD. "In the absence of real Leadership, the appearance of Leadership will do". Not saying I'm a natural-born Leader (I actually tend to be a little over-emotional), but AP and company had absolutely ZERO dynamic ability to lead when you actually faced the guy in person or saw him on camera (can't believe those videos they put out).

That was easy to get everyone mad, he'd dropped the ball on 3 LARGE events over the last year and the T.A. was a joke.

Once you got past that, as I said back then, you had to keep up the energy level to keep people involved. Because of the time delay to get the rest of the BoD voted in, they lost a very crucial 2 months, and apathy has begun to set back in.

It's better than it was, by far, but the troops need to be re-energized. Give them a cause to rally behind (not just the "eventual" contract agreement, but something they can sink their teeth into NOW), and you'll keep them engaged.

It's not rocket science. Business Schools and the military teach this basic concept, then it has to be adapted to our particular demographic. So far, I don't see anyone really doing it. Mike's got a good handle on it, but he's a quiet-mannered guy, and they're settling back in for traditional negotiations again.

Expect the apathy to go back to its previous levels... Pilots just aren't that self-motivating unless threatened with an unwanted outcome (failed checkride, termination). That's why the whole assessment for lack of involvement got my attention. Personally, I think it's a good base idea, but you'd have to be careful how you implemented it.

And yeah, it would get the membership riled up... Maybe that's what they need... a good swift kick in the **** to realize their involvement is not just a "if you have time" request, but a NECESSARY INGREDIENT TO THE PROCESS.

 

[curtis46]

Have you guys talked to any new hires lately?
I do, on a daily basis;guess what,many of them know more about what was in that TA than many line pilots.they've been following AT for months,gathering informations before deciding that's a place they want to hang their hat.
The interesting trend that i observed is ,they're not just happy to be here ,but they want to make AT a better place.they're willing to accept to be an F/O for 6 years,just give them a livable wage and decent days off while on reserve.
Many of them want to help.a new hire that i'm mentoring,w/o nobody having to ask me to,has a pretty good knowledge of contract negotiation.I referred him to the NPA.
If we start working with those who want to be involve,we may end up with a" bag full of rice ".

 

[Lear70]

Well-said.

I'm not surprised they were watching closely... both T.A.'s had a SUBSTANTIAL pay cut for new-hires to help finance increases in other wage areas.

Not to mention the reserve section absolutely sucked.

Glad you're getting good vibes from the Noobs!

 

[JoeMerchant]

There is no conflict of interest. But I'll give you your turn. Tell me Joe- how do major airline PILOTS not benefit from increased wages and better work rules at "regionals"?

So unless your argument is that ALPA should be pressuring management for decreased wages to keep your regional more competitive and more alluring for increased outsourcing... then i don't get what you are saying.

There are those who took Logic in college, and those who didn't, I guess...

1. Actually it came out in the RJDC lawsuit depositions that the USAir MEC took "bargaining credits" for helping to keep regional costs low.....Puffdriver on FI has also described the logic....The mainline pilot groups benefit (for the short term) when they help management lower their regional costs because it leaves more money in the "pie" for mainline bargaining....If you subscribe to the theory that there is a finite amount of capital to bargain with...the more you reduce other costs, ie regional costs.....the more money left over for the mainline contract.....

Of course that is short sighted logic because eventually the lower regional costs put further downward pressure on the mainline.....Much like problems this country is facing....we tend to look for short term solutions that end up pushing the problem downstream.....

2. The conflict of interest that I was referring to was the scope conflict of interest.....There are many of us at the regionals who have decided to make a career here.....$110K a year with your choice of schedule and lots of vacation flying an ATR isn't a bad gig....The conflict comes when I want to grow my company and the mainline wants to curtail the growth of my company...ALPA has to represent both interests and that is impossible.....You can't have the same attorney represent both the husband and the wife in a divorce.....

 

[waveflyer]

1- Anyone, explain how a mainline MEC can control wages at your "regional"? Isn't that bargained between your MEC and your management. And aren't regional costs and contracts developed between your management and mainline management. Where does the mainline MEC get involved other than releasing scope-- which in my opinion has been incredibly detrimental to the pilot profession. Didn't you lose the RJDC lawsuit?

2- are you arguing for further reductions in scope? Didn't you just argue that ALPA should think long-term- Wouldn't you be better off if ALL brand flying were done under one seniority list?
2-It isn't that bad of a gig- and if that's been your choice or you've failed to move on- why punish those who took the risk to fly for the mainline carrier? It is THEIR flying that keeps getting sold out by the senior folk for some short-sighted gain.

 

[BOYCAPTAIN]

In my opinion, Pocono deserved the smack-down... I don't think it was aimed at regional pilots everywhere.
.

EXACTLY....i knew i liked you!

 

[whymeworry?]

AND I don't have to worry about being some lame gear jerker, either.

Cause that's all your FOs are to you, huh?

God help the pax on your flight... considering it's a one-man show.

 

[whymeworry?]

BTW, back to thread topic. This profession always remain and it will always be rewarding for most. That is not to say it will be easy your whole career. There are ups-and-downs in any profession. There are hard times and dues-paying with any job. To expect a straight ride to the top and stay on top your whole career is a bit naive no matter the chosen vocation.

I equate America's obsession with travel on par with their compulsion with sensationalized celebrity gossip. Seemingly, we are living in an age where American's cannot live without either. So the business isn't headed into the toilet any time soon but there will be difficult times ahead for any carrier.

If you're JBlu, AirTran, or SkyBus, you're going to be hurting as your business model is built on attracting price bottom feeders who refuse to pay one dollar more for a ticket. If you are with a global network carrier you will survive since their managments seem to finally understand that labor can no longer subsidize the public's insatiable appetite for air travel.

So the bottomline is, with the advent of soaring oil costs, some carriers will survive, the heathly ones with sensible business plans (sensible meaning charging the consumer for the cost of your product at a minimum), and some will fail (the skybus' of the world). You just have to decide what side of the equation you want to be on if you want to remain in this business for the long haul.

 

[Dizel8]

Fly about 200 hours a year for free cause it is fun.

Can you send me the money they would have paid you, since that would be fun for me!

 

[pilotyip]

not fun

Can you send me the money they would have paid you, since that would be fun for me!

na that would not be fun

 

[Lear70]

Can you send me the money they would have paid you, since that would be fun for me!

*snicker*

 

[jke406]

1. Actually it came out in the RJDC lawsuit depositions

any post containing the letters "RJDC" is, by default, deemed without merit and WORTHLESS.

Go back the regional forum, lowlife.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Lots of talk about this profession..... here are some points...

1. Is there a better profession? Who's got it better?

2. Allot of this has to do with expectations. Do pilots readily objectively manage thier expectations?

3. Finally, if one gives up on thier profession, what will keep them at thier next profession? Why will they be commited? Fact is.. this profession can be good. The good ol days were never that good... they are just believed to be...

Pilots are not unique in this regard... profession management or maintenence is required in all professions... but when you were thinking about being an Air Line Pilot... did that include thinking about democracy... voting, meeting attendence, education, etc...

no of course not...all you thought about was jets, days off, money, retriement, etc...in other words.... you wanted the reward... but never thought about the responsibility...

Oh you think.... passing your checkride and showing up on time is "responsibility"........???