Is this profession in peril?

[PCL_128]

Yet according to you and Rez....this is the root of ALPA's problem....a problem that ALPA has always had....

Correct. This has always held us back. It wasn't as much of an issue during the days of regulation and friendly administrations, because we weren't going up against as much resistance. Airlines had the ability to pass their rising costs off to the consumers and receive subsidies from the CAB. After that ended, and especially after 9/11 and with the anti-labor Bush administration, the negative effects of an extremely apathetic membership are clearer. We could still muddle along and make decent advancements in the old days, but in this new environment, an apathetic membership is a death sentence. People are correct to say that we need to adapt to the deregulated world, but it's not ALPA the organization that needs to adapt, it's the ALPA members that need to adapt. Continuing in the lackadaisical ways of the past will no longer work. The members need to be actively involved.

 

[JoeMerchant]

No there isn't. You have made a decision to stay at the regionals. That means that you've accepted the fact that you'll always be flying smaller airplanes. Nothing wrong with that. It's your choice. If you want to fly bigger planes, then you always have the choice of moving on to an airline that flies bigger planes. But there's no conflict of interest in any of this. The only conflict of interest would be if ALPA attempted to scope you out of flying that you're already doing. That isn't happening, so there's no conflict.

That is your opinion....but that doesn't mean there isn't a conflict of interest...There is a conflict to those of us who are making a career here....I don't care how big an airplane I fly....but I have every right to demand that my union doesn't limit my career at my current employer....The very fact that we are arguing about this shows that there is a conflict of interest....Your interest and my interest conflict.....

ALPA has attempted...and probably will again attempt to scope us out flying we are already doing.....

 

[PCL_128]

And all the UAL pilots are better off now than before the 2000 action, because the union made everything better.

The UAL pilots took massive paycuts and suffered furloughs because of 9/11, an anti-labor administration that wouldn't even give an ATSB loan to an airline that lost two airplanes and numerous crew members because of a terrorist action that the administration failed to stop, and an inept management. Contract '00 had nothing to do with these problems. But I should have expected such nonsense from someone that sits behind a desk at YIP and issues memos for a living.

 

[CitationUltra]

We haven't *always* been apathetic. PCL is painting a broader picture than was really applicable in the first decade post-deregulation.

There are several good examples of large-scale major airline strikes at that time, more than one of which resulted in the wholesale closure of an airline,,, but,,, reduced capacity allowed higher ticket prices, thus holding up the professional bottom line for pilots (and other labor) for longer than it otherwise might have.

PCL is right in that regard: deregulation has been the biggest contributor to the demise of our pay and QOL, it's just taken a (relatively) long time for the effect to be realized.

Additionally, pilots have, by and large, become a casualty of their own successes or, rather, the successes of our predecessors. Our founding fathers post-deregulation obtained work rules, duty limits, minimum rest periods, hotel standards, etc, that made the next generation of pilots expect more without having to struggle to obtain those gains.

Then the management folk came in and, instead of managing the money for the long term, started raiding the kitty to take money and run (corporate raiders). The managers who came in AFTER the coffers were empty then came to the biggest single expense they had at the time, pilot labor (fuel wasn't nearly as high on the list at the time), and found a pilot group who didn't know what it was to have fought for those hard gains.

They took advantage, and it all snowballed downhill from there, as each subsequent generation of pilot complains loudly, but doesn't have the cajones to risk their career and airline to get what they want.

Indeed, ask any ex-Eastern pilot who struck, didn't return, and ended up without a job if they would do it again, or take the cuts and keep their job... I bet you'd get a lot who'd have given up the cuts to not have a career of uncertainty.

It's a lot to ask, but nothing good comes without risk. Pilots understand this, and would rather keep a halfway-good thing than risk starting over again or, possibly, having a GREAT career.

I never said it was a terrible job, I love my work, I just know an airline career will NEVER again be what it once was. Too many people not willing to make the hard sacrifices.

Well put, and historically accurate.

 

[curtis46]

Pilots have always been apathetic;during good times our leaders were able to negotiate w/o much pilots involvement.With the state of the industry,pilots involvement is crucial.
A way to fight the apathy would be to do like my kids charter school does.parents must volunteer a number of hours every year in diffferent school activities,if not parents got billed.some parents don't like to get involve and gladly send their checks;personnally,to avoid beeing charged,i volunteer my time.now i know all the teachers,the school rules,the PTA members,the school programs,the financial aids available,the kids can't fool me anymore on their assignements!!
I would bet pilots participation would be significant.now,can the union impliment such policy,not sure.

 

[JoeMerchant]

The UAL pilots took massive paycuts and suffered furloughs because of 9/11, an anti-labor administration that wouldn't even give an ATSB loan to an airline that lost two airplanes and numerous crew members because of a terrorist action that the administration failed to stop, and an inept management. Contract '00 had nothing to do with these problems. But I should have expected such nonsense from someone that sits behind a desk at YIP and issues memos for a living.

Are you now blaiming 911 on Bush? You have really lost it now....Let me guess....it would never have happened with your man Obama....

 

[PCL_128]

Are you now blaiming 911 on Bush? You have really lost it now....Let me guess....it would never have happened with your man Obama....

I'm not blaming him for anything, but the fact remains that UAL and AMR lost airplanes and crew members because of a terrorist act on this country, and the administration blocked ATSB loans that they obviously deserved.

 

[Lear70]

Pilots have always been apathetic;during good times our leaders were able to negotiate w/o much pilots involvement.With the state of the industry,pilots involvement is crucial.
A way to fight the apathy would be to do like my kids charter school does.parents must volunteer a number of hours every year in diffferent school activities,if not parents got billed.some parents don't like to get involve and gladly send their checks;personnally,to avoid beeing charged,i volunteer my time.now i know all the teachers,the school rules,the PTA members,the school programs,the financial aids available,the kids can't fool me anymore on their assignements!!
I would bet pilots participation would be significant.now,can the union impliment such policy,not sure.

That's actually not a bad thought.

Change the bylaws to REQUIRE personal involvement in your association at so many functions per year.

A hefty assessment for failure to comply, taken directly from your paycheck the same way your dues are taken.

Hmmmm... might have to think about that when I've had less beer.

 

[PCL_128]

That's actually not a bad thought.

Change the bylaws to REQUIRE personal involvement in your association at so many functions per year.

A hefty assessment for failure to comply, taken directly from your paycheck the same way your dues are taken.

Hmmmm... might have to think about that when I've had less beer.

I pity the union rep who tries to bring that to a vote. It is an idea with merit, though.

 

[waveflyer]

i agree-that is an interesting idea- and that's my point- if apathy is the problem- let's come up with the solution. It's not that your wrong PCL, it's that it's wrong to be railing on it instead of tweaking the system to address it.

It's the same thing w/ my seniority "problem"- Every bit of the last 3 pages of posts comes down to 'we don't have leverage b/c we have to keep our current company in it's current form or we start over'. That is a problem in this dynamic of an industry. Almost all of the infighting is, again, over seniority. Can we solve it?

UAL not receiving an NTSB guarantee is a huge scam perpetrated on the taxpayers- albeit not even close to the largest squandering of funds under this administration. If you are fiscally conservative- it should bother you that appointees of the president decided to let the taxpayers pay the PGC $5billion for reduced benefits to UAL employees- instead of a worst case scenario $1.9billion IF UAL defaulted- which they had already determined to be unlikely. I don't get how an airline pilot can justify being a republican at all- but that's me- But how you justify Bush.... that's your issues...

There is no conflict of interest. But I'll give you your turn. Tell me Joe- how do major airline PILOTS not benefit from increased wages and better work rules at "regionals"?

So unless your argument is that ALPA should be pressuring management for decreased wages to keep your regional more competitive and more alluring for increased outsourcing... then i don't get what you are saying.

There are those who took Logic in college, and those who didn't, I guess...

 

[PCL_128]

i agree-that is an interesting idea- and that's my point- if apathy is the problem- let's come up with the solution. It's not that your wrong PCL, it's that it's wrong to be railing on it instead of tweaking the system to address it.

There's no way to "tweak" the system to force participation. The man had an interesting idea, but it's unworkable. If the union proposed such a new policy that would assess pilots that didn't volunteer, the members would call for their heads on a platter. Pilots will roll over and take concessions, but damned if they won't tar and feather a union rep that tries to increase their dues or assess them. The simple fact of the matter is that pilots are going to have to wake up and get involved. You can't force it, and you can't legislate it; it has to happen naturally. Until that happens, we'll be held back from our full potential.

Almost all of the infighting is, again, over seniority. Can we solve it?

No, we can't. You're stuck with the seniority system. Deal with it. You're about seven decades too late to change it. ALPA has looked at this issue every which way imaginable, and there's simply no workable way to fix the seniority system. No matter how you do it, somebody gets screwed and screams bloody murder. Your efforts would be better spent on learning how to be effective within the confines of the system that we have.

 

[waveflyer]

right, right... so there's nothing to do- i don't even know your point anymore. sit and do nothing and wait til it naturally corrects itself... w/ noone doing anything...

And you're curious why some think ALPA is better off being dismantled?

Note to PCL- pilots are getting involved- just not w/ ALPA- You might want to lose this bullsh*t circular self-justification argument before you add ammunition to those who want ALPA's demise. Is that enough truth for you Harry?

Maybe you should be the one to accept the "reality" that pilots won't ever get involved in mass in the way that you want them to. For god's sake man, it's been 70 years and your railing on it in every post like the kid you are-and then condemning my ideas...???

Just get out of the way-- you offer no solutions except a vague one that you admit hasn't been reality since the 40's... I don't get you- How can you not see the need to change? ALPA is stuck in a 1940's model of unionization that isn't keeping up w/ today's airlines and we are all suffering for it-

Until we can change companies w/o starting over at the bottom we will see pilots make sacrifice after sacrifice to keep their company alive- and that takes away leverage. Unless ALPA acts to at least counter that huge amount of leverage we give away (not to mention career flexibility) w/ our self-imposed current form of seniority- and increase leverage in other ways- it will be voted out- airline after airline after airline. That's the reality you have to come to terms with.

 

[PCL_128]

i don't even know your point anymore. sit and do nothing and wait til it naturally corrects itself... w/ noone doing anything...

My point, once again, is that the membership needs to get involved before anything will get better. Trying to force involvement by assessing the members that don't participate, or making voting mandatory, etc.... will not achieve the desired result. Members need to get involved voluntarily and not by some means of coercion.

Note to PCL- pilots are getting involved- just not w/ ALPA-

How so? In what ways are they involved? You still haven't even answered my question about what you've done to take a leadership role.

Maybe you should be the one to accept the "reality" that pilots won't ever get involved in mass in the way that you want them to.

I'm not a defeatist. I continue to hold out hope that the membership will eventually wake up and take ownership of their careers. Until then, I'll keep preaching the gospel.

How can you not see the need to change?

On the contrary, I'm the one here who's advocating real, useful change. Change in the form of involvement from the membership. That's the only "change" that will make a difference.

Until we can change companies w/o starting over at the bottom

That's a wonderful utopian thought, but no actual solutions that are workable have been offered. Whenever someone offers a plan, someone else screams bloody murder about how they're getting "screwed" somehow under that plan. I await your utopian plan for pilot paradise under a single seniority list. Until then, I'll continue to work within the system that we're all stuck with.

 

[curtis46]

I have seen an interesting trend of pilots involvement at AT.
like waflyer said ,seating on our hands and complaining won't solve anything.how do you know some possible solutions won't work w/o even trying?!
pcl,give more credits to the pilots group.not every body is born a leader but say the words and many will follow.

 

[PCL_128]

I have seen an interesting trend of pilots involvement at AT.

I've actually been disappointed lately. Involvement was pretty good during the recall and TA votes, but it's been slipping. Just to get 50% to respond to the latest contract survey, the NPA had to extend the deadline by two weeks, show up in the crew lounge a few times, and send emails almost every single day. Even with all of that, just barely over 50% responded to the poll. It seems that involvement is slipping back to the usual low levels. Not to mention all of the pilots that I still see doing everyone else's jobs (tossing gate-checked bags, helping cleaning the cabin, etc...) as we enter our 4th year of negotiations.

pcl,give more credits to the pilots group.not every body is born a leader but say the words and many will follow.

Time will tell. I'll believe it if we hold a picketing event and a few hundred pilots show up rather than the usual two dozen or so.