Is this profession in peril?

[PCL_128]

i agree-that is an interesting idea- and that's my point- if apathy is the problem- let's come up with the solution. It's not that your wrong PCL, it's that it's wrong to be railing on it instead of tweaking the system to address it.

There's no way to "tweak" the system to force participation. The man had an interesting idea, but it's unworkable. If the union proposed such a new policy that would assess pilots that didn't volunteer, the members would call for their heads on a platter. Pilots will roll over and take concessions, but damned if they won't tar and feather a union rep that tries to increase their dues or assess them. The simple fact of the matter is that pilots are going to have to wake up and get involved. You can't force it, and you can't legislate it; it has to happen naturally. Until that happens, we'll be held back from our full potential.

Almost all of the infighting is, again, over seniority. Can we solve it?

No, we can't. You're stuck with the seniority system. Deal with it. You're about seven decades too late to change it. ALPA has looked at this issue every which way imaginable, and there's simply no workable way to fix the seniority system. No matter how you do it, somebody gets screwed and screams bloody murder. Your efforts would be better spent on learning how to be effective within the confines of the system that we have.

 

[waveflyer]

right, right... so there's nothing to do- i don't even know your point anymore. sit and do nothing and wait til it naturally corrects itself... w/ noone doing anything...

And you're curious why some think ALPA is better off being dismantled?

Note to PCL- pilots are getting involved- just not w/ ALPA- You might want to lose this bullsh*t circular self-justification argument before you add ammunition to those who want ALPA's demise. Is that enough truth for you Harry?

Maybe you should be the one to accept the "reality" that pilots won't ever get involved in mass in the way that you want them to. For god's sake man, it's been 70 years and your railing on it in every post like the kid you are-and then condemning my ideas...???

Just get out of the way-- you offer no solutions except a vague one that you admit hasn't been reality since the 40's... I don't get you- How can you not see the need to change? ALPA is stuck in a 1940's model of unionization that isn't keeping up w/ today's airlines and we are all suffering for it-

Until we can change companies w/o starting over at the bottom we will see pilots make sacrifice after sacrifice to keep their company alive- and that takes away leverage. Unless ALPA acts to at least counter that huge amount of leverage we give away (not to mention career flexibility) w/ our self-imposed current form of seniority- and increase leverage in other ways- it will be voted out- airline after airline after airline. That's the reality you have to come to terms with.

 

[PCL_128]

i don't even know your point anymore. sit and do nothing and wait til it naturally corrects itself... w/ noone doing anything...

My point, once again, is that the membership needs to get involved before anything will get better. Trying to force involvement by assessing the members that don't participate, or making voting mandatory, etc.... will not achieve the desired result. Members need to get involved voluntarily and not by some means of coercion.

Note to PCL- pilots are getting involved- just not w/ ALPA-

How so? In what ways are they involved? You still haven't even answered my question about what you've done to take a leadership role.

Maybe you should be the one to accept the "reality" that pilots won't ever get involved in mass in the way that you want them to.

I'm not a defeatist. I continue to hold out hope that the membership will eventually wake up and take ownership of their careers. Until then, I'll keep preaching the gospel.

How can you not see the need to change?

On the contrary, I'm the one here who's advocating real, useful change. Change in the form of involvement from the membership. That's the only "change" that will make a difference.

Until we can change companies w/o starting over at the bottom

That's a wonderful utopian thought, but no actual solutions that are workable have been offered. Whenever someone offers a plan, someone else screams bloody murder about how they're getting "screwed" somehow under that plan. I await your utopian plan for pilot paradise under a single seniority list. Until then, I'll continue to work within the system that we're all stuck with.

 

[curtis46]

I have seen an interesting trend of pilots involvement at AT.
like waflyer said ,seating on our hands and complaining won't solve anything.how do you know some possible solutions won't work w/o even trying?!
pcl,give more credits to the pilots group.not every body is born a leader but say the words and many will follow.

 

[PCL_128]

I have seen an interesting trend of pilots involvement at AT.

I've actually been disappointed lately. Involvement was pretty good during the recall and TA votes, but it's been slipping. Just to get 50% to respond to the latest contract survey, the NPA had to extend the deadline by two weeks, show up in the crew lounge a few times, and send emails almost every single day. Even with all of that, just barely over 50% responded to the poll. It seems that involvement is slipping back to the usual low levels. Not to mention all of the pilots that I still see doing everyone else's jobs (tossing gate-checked bags, helping cleaning the cabin, etc...) as we enter our 4th year of negotiations.

pcl,give more credits to the pilots group.not every body is born a leader but say the words and many will follow.

Time will tell. I'll believe it if we hold a picketing event and a few hundred pilots show up rather than the usual two dozen or so.

 

[pilotyip]

Oh I forgot this is a pilot board

Contract '00 had nothing to do with these problems. But I should have expected such nonsense from someone that sits behind a desk at YIP and issues memos for a living.

That’s right the down turn in late 2000 and early 2001 load factors, particularly first class had nothing to do with the slow down actions of early 2000,. UAL was in trouble before 9-11. This was reported by McGraw Hill in Aviation Daily, that is reality, but it doesn’t fit here because pilots can never be a problem only management. BTW I don’t issue memos, I think we have DO’s secretary to do that. I recruit, manage pilot staffing, and train/Check DA-20 pilots. Fly about 200 hours a year for free cause it is fun.

 

[PCL_128]

<font color="black">That’s right the down turn in late 2000 and early 2001 load factors, particularly first class had nothing to do with the slow down actions of early 2000,.

Had management come to the table and bargained in good faith rather than focusing on Avolar and a USAirways merger, then there never would have been a slow down. Line pilots don't like slow downs. They're a pain in the ass. They only resort to these actions when they become extremely frustrated with management intransigence.

 

[Lear70]

I attribute a lot of that behavior to "shell shock", or "Post-Traumatic Regional Pilot Stress Syndrome". The flying, lines, schedules, and overnights are so much better at airTran that almost every regional the guys came from, that they are basically just "happy to be here".

Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed the job, too, but realize that $40,000 a year doesn't pay my bills. Yeah, I signed on for it, expecting a 2-3 year upgrade, then had aircraft delivery deferments, people who didn't go back to their Legacy carriers (who'd have thought the UAir arbitration would go so badly), and upgrades keep spiraling just out of reach... THAT was one of the main reasons I got involved.

Unfortunately, guys just don't seem to care. They just like their trips, are content to hold out for CA at existing pay rates, and don't want to "rock the boat".

The VOTE NO and recall campaigns were successful because a few people stood up and LEAD. "In the absence of real Leadership, the appearance of Leadership will do". Not saying I'm a natural-born Leader (I actually tend to be a little over-emotional), but AP and company had absolutely ZERO dynamic ability to lead when you actually faced the guy in person or saw him on camera (can't believe those videos they put out).

That was easy to get everyone mad, he'd dropped the ball on 3 LARGE events over the last year and the T.A. was a joke.

Once you got past that, as I said back then, you had to keep up the energy level to keep people involved. Because of the time delay to get the rest of the BoD voted in, they lost a very crucial 2 months, and apathy has begun to set back in.

It's better than it was, by far, but the troops need to be re-energized. Give them a cause to rally behind (not just the "eventual" contract agreement, but something they can sink their teeth into NOW), and you'll keep them engaged.

It's not rocket science. Business Schools and the military teach this basic concept, then it has to be adapted to our particular demographic. So far, I don't see anyone really doing it. Mike's got a good handle on it, but he's a quiet-mannered guy, and they're settling back in for traditional negotiations again.

Expect the apathy to go back to its previous levels... Pilots just aren't that self-motivating unless threatened with an unwanted outcome (failed checkride, termination). That's why the whole assessment for lack of involvement got my attention. Personally, I think it's a good base idea, but you'd have to be careful how you implemented it.

And yeah, it would get the membership riled up... Maybe that's what they need... a good swift kick in the **** to realize their involvement is not just a "if you have time" request, but a NECESSARY INGREDIENT TO THE PROCESS.

 

[curtis46]

Have you guys talked to any new hires lately?
I do, on a daily basis;guess what,many of them know more about what was in that TA than many line pilots.they've been following AT for months,gathering informations before deciding that's a place they want to hang their hat.
The interesting trend that i observed is ,they're not just happy to be here ,but they want to make AT a better place.they're willing to accept to be an F/O for 6 years,just give them a livable wage and decent days off while on reserve.
Many of them want to help.a new hire that i'm mentoring,w/o nobody having to ask me to,has a pretty good knowledge of contract negotiation.I referred him to the NPA.
If we start working with those who want to be involve,we may end up with a" bag full of rice ".

 

[Lear70]

Well-said.

I'm not surprised they were watching closely... both T.A.'s had a SUBSTANTIAL pay cut for new-hires to help finance increases in other wage areas.

Not to mention the reserve section absolutely sucked.

Glad you're getting good vibes from the Noobs!

 

[JoeMerchant]

There is no conflict of interest. But I'll give you your turn. Tell me Joe- how do major airline PILOTS not benefit from increased wages and better work rules at "regionals"?

So unless your argument is that ALPA should be pressuring management for decreased wages to keep your regional more competitive and more alluring for increased outsourcing... then i don't get what you are saying.

There are those who took Logic in college, and those who didn't, I guess...

1. Actually it came out in the RJDC lawsuit depositions that the USAir MEC took "bargaining credits" for helping to keep regional costs low.....Puffdriver on FI has also described the logic....The mainline pilot groups benefit (for the short term) when they help management lower their regional costs because it leaves more money in the "pie" for mainline bargaining....If you subscribe to the theory that there is a finite amount of capital to bargain with...the more you reduce other costs, ie regional costs.....the more money left over for the mainline contract.....

Of course that is short sighted logic because eventually the lower regional costs put further downward pressure on the mainline.....Much like problems this country is facing....we tend to look for short term solutions that end up pushing the problem downstream.....

2. The conflict of interest that I was referring to was the scope conflict of interest.....There are many of us at the regionals who have decided to make a career here.....$110K a year with your choice of schedule and lots of vacation flying an ATR isn't a bad gig....The conflict comes when I want to grow my company and the mainline wants to curtail the growth of my company...ALPA has to represent both interests and that is impossible.....You can't have the same attorney represent both the husband and the wife in a divorce.....

 

[waveflyer]

1- Anyone, explain how a mainline MEC can control wages at your "regional"? Isn't that bargained between your MEC and your management. And aren't regional costs and contracts developed between your management and mainline management. Where does the mainline MEC get involved other than releasing scope-- which in my opinion has been incredibly detrimental to the pilot profession. Didn't you lose the RJDC lawsuit?

2- are you arguing for further reductions in scope? Didn't you just argue that ALPA should think long-term- Wouldn't you be better off if ALL brand flying were done under one seniority list?
2-It isn't that bad of a gig- and if that's been your choice or you've failed to move on- why punish those who took the risk to fly for the mainline carrier? It is THEIR flying that keeps getting sold out by the senior folk for some short-sighted gain.

 

[BOYCAPTAIN]

In my opinion, Pocono deserved the smack-down... I don't think it was aimed at regional pilots everywhere.
.

EXACTLY....i knew i liked you!

 

[whymeworry?]

AND I don't have to worry about being some lame gear jerker, either.

Cause that's all your FOs are to you, huh?

God help the pax on your flight... considering it's a one-man show.

 

[whymeworry?]

BTW, back to thread topic. This profession always remain and it will always be rewarding for most. That is not to say it will be easy your whole career. There are ups-and-downs in any profession. There are hard times and dues-paying with any job. To expect a straight ride to the top and stay on top your whole career is a bit naive no matter the chosen vocation.

I equate America's obsession with travel on par with their compulsion with sensationalized celebrity gossip. Seemingly, we are living in an age where American's cannot live without either. So the business isn't headed into the toilet any time soon but there will be difficult times ahead for any carrier.

If you're JBlu, AirTran, or SkyBus, you're going to be hurting as your business model is built on attracting price bottom feeders who refuse to pay one dollar more for a ticket. If you are with a global network carrier you will survive since their managments seem to finally understand that labor can no longer subsidize the public's insatiable appetite for air travel.

So the bottomline is, with the advent of soaring oil costs, some carriers will survive, the heathly ones with sensible business plans (sensible meaning charging the consumer for the cost of your product at a minimum), and some will fail (the skybus' of the world). You just have to decide what side of the equation you want to be on if you want to remain in this business for the long haul.

 

[Dizel8]

Fly about 200 hours a year for free cause it is fun.

Can you send me the money they would have paid you, since that would be fun for me!

 

[pilotyip]

not fun

Can you send me the money they would have paid you, since that would be fun for me!

na that would not be fun

 

[Lear70]

Can you send me the money they would have paid you, since that would be fun for me!

*snicker*

 

[jke406]

1. Actually it came out in the RJDC lawsuit depositions

any post containing the letters "RJDC" is, by default, deemed without merit and WORTHLESS.

Go back the regional forum, lowlife.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Lots of talk about this profession..... here are some points...

1. Is there a better profession? Who's got it better?

2. Allot of this has to do with expectations. Do pilots readily objectively manage thier expectations?

3. Finally, if one gives up on thier profession, what will keep them at thier next profession? Why will they be commited? Fact is.. this profession can be good. The good ol days were never that good... they are just believed to be...

Pilots are not unique in this regard... profession management or maintenence is required in all professions... but when you were thinking about being an Air Line Pilot... did that include thinking about democracy... voting, meeting attendence, education, etc...

no of course not...all you thought about was jets, days off, money, retriement, etc...in other words.... you wanted the reward... but never thought about the responsibility...

Oh you think.... passing your checkride and showing up on time is "responsibility"........???