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Is Skywest ALPA drive dead?

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Rez O. Lewshun said:
Fins-

If you want to envoke positive change you have to use positive methods.!!!
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Agreed. Without ALPA at Comair I would have taken a $10/ hour pay cut (off second year pay!) a year ago. Of course, without ALPA I wouldn't have ever been in a position to take a $10/hour pay cut, because I would never be making what I'm making now. The bottom line is that ALPA has saved me (a penny saved is a penny earned) over $10,000 by fighting pay and work rules changes by management. I'm still going to take a pay cut, but it won't be nearly as much as it would have been, and I have $10,000+ in my pocket in the mean time; well worth my 1.95%. I'm happy to volunteer and happy that ALPA is here.
 
Rez:

I hear you. I just think if ALPA would take some of the tools it has out and used them every once a while the SkyWest guys would understand what the union can do.

Unfortunately at ASA and Comair, the Delta boys hid the ALPA tool box (no, worse, they sold it to management) and now no one remembers what those tools were even supposed to be used for. Meanwhile the white man has fractionalized us off into little reservations and we no longer control our hunting grounds.

Carrying the analogy further - We are all sympathetic to the Indians, but none of us wants to be them.
 
~~~^~~~ said:
Rez:

I hear you. I just think if ALPA would take some of the tools it has out and used them every once a while the SkyWest guys would understand what the union can do.

Unfortunately at ASA and Comair, the Delta boys hid the ALPA tool box (no, worse, they sold it to management) and now no one remembers what those tools were even supposed to be used for. Meanwhile the white man has fractionalized us off into little reservations and we no longer control our hunting grounds.

Carrying the analogy further - We are all sympathetic to the Indians, but none of us wants to be them.
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Agreed! When I ask why we do things at ALPA the way we do I am somehtimes amazed at the asnwers. We are effective, but we can be so much more.

Instead of placing blame (in your case ALPA National, Delta Brand MEC's) lets work to put in place the oraganization, systems and programs so we are much better at serving ourselves.

Finally, regardless of the the organizational structure, programs and systems the only way we are going to make this work is thru relationship buliding. The CEO's in the biz world love to fix problems by implementing programs. That is only a facade if the people running the programs don't feel trust, respect, loyalty and faith in the leaders.
 
vtech said:
Seems like the drive started a long time ago. How many have signed up?
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Why would ANYONE want a union at a company that's being run professionally without the union? What has ALPA (or any other union) done for pilots that SkyWay management hasn't done.

Time for the unions was back in the 20's and 30's...with todays' labor laws...we DO NOT need unions. UNIONS HAVE NOT SERVED THIS COUNTRY WELL!

Say NO to unions.
Look at our Auto industry...going down the 'drain' becuase of unions.

Bunny
 
Please keep instructing, FlyBunny. We need good pilots like yourself to keep those bailing wire/duct tape training birds in the air at all costs. God forbid a pilot would have the right to say "No" to a broke airplane or marginal Wx.

The ability of workers in safety-sensitive industries such as transportation to keep the brake set has saved thousands and thousands of untold lives. A good descision, though contrary to management's wishes, doesn't make headlines.
 
Edited and sent in a PM....

But unions have done a lot in our Nation. They simply have last the PR battle as our Country has become a service oriented economy where most employees are lower level managers who can not speak freely without fear of retribution. All they can do is read Far Side cartoons and watch re runs of Office Space.

Unions are needed in the piloting profession because none of us are worth what we get paid on the basis of "supply and demand." When the Wright Bros. flew the first airplane Wilbur and Orville had to flip a coin to see who got to fly. Nothing has changed. There are still more pilots than there are flying jobs.

Unions are needed in the piloting profession because we spend more than twice the amount of time as the average US worker on the job. We are away from home an average of 300 hours per month while the company controls when we sleep, when we eat and when we see our families.

Unions are needed in the piloting profession because it is our certificates which allow the airplane to operate. We are responsible for the operation, even parts of the operation we do not control. The final authority and the complete responsibility for this operation is ours. When an incident occurs, the FAA and your Employer will not accept responsibility. No, the pilot in command will be offered as a sacrifice to ensure the public that after the pilot has been sanctioned, or fired, that the problem is fixed.

ALPA has tools to effectively deal with these problems and for 1.95%, ALPA has years of experienced, dedicated, people who will be on your side.

ALPA has its problems and I'm the canary in the coal mine on some of these issues. But going forward ALPA is the best hope for our profession. The only way we are going to restore the piloting profession is by working together - ALPA is the only organization that can bring that together.
 
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~~~^~~~ said:
If ALPA does not get on the SkyWest property, they only have ALPA to blame. Even though ALPA would be good for the SkyWest pilots in particular and the industry in general, ALPA has failed in their representational duty to regional pilots as they repeatedly sold us down the river by promoting mainline interests above other members who they owed a fair duty of representation to.

Further, ALPA should aggressively use scope and the power of their contractual negotiating to strip airlines like SkyWest of their flying. ALPA should not play nice. ALPA should play to be effective.

If ALPA would use their seat at the table to draw a line that included ALPA members, the SkyWest pilots would sign up so they too could sit at the table.

If you have them by the short hairs, their hearts and minds will follow. Instead, ALPA has been trying to sell something the SkyWest pilots don't yet need.
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I agree, but doubt it will ever happen.

ALPA does some good things at certain levels, and wouldn't mind paying my 2% instead of riding the coat-tails. HOWEVER...my previous, painful experience with alpa at the regional level leads me to believe that alpa at SKW will cost me a GREAT DEAL MORE than 2%.

Alpa has proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that they are unwilling or unable to effectively represent most regionals. I have visions of SKW turning into mesa-like environment whenever I think of alpa on property...that alone seals the deal in my mind.

In order to attract my interest alpa needs to do a few things...

1) Stop Lying. This is the kind of behavior I would expect from a longshoreman's local (or management) , not from a pilot's association. I overheard a few new-hires (cfi) who had attended an alpa get-together talking about alpa loss-of-license insurance...they had come away with the impression that if you lost your medical or license for any reason, you would get 66% of your pay until age 60! WTF? I wonder where they got that idea...

2) Establish and publicly announce a plan or set of standards for regional contracts, and a timeline/roadmap as to how they are going to get there. I don't need them to "fix" SKW the way they "fixed" my last alpa carrier, but I might be interested in a national unity program for regionals.
 
I am a union advocate and belonged to a union in my previous career. In my last union, the senior members stood up for the junior members. ALWAYS. We could trust them, and our unity earned us pay and benefits that were unimaginably great. I still can not believe how fantastic our health benefits were, and they did not cost us anything our of pocket (and yes, our pay was very good, too.)

However, ALPA has a long, and sordid history of the seniors selling out the juniors for a song and a cheap cigar. Very few pilots wish to be lifers at the regionals. We want jobs at the majors. Yet the mainline MECs repeatedly sell out their regional "brothers and sisters". There needs to be a drive to get regional pilots mainline numbers. Otherwise, those of us working at ALPA regionals will see our options lost and our futures sold as non-union pilots from quick-upgrade lowball airlines take up all the good mainline jobs while ALPA pilots spend their careers as regional FO's. Don't get me wrong, I appreciate my FO time, but I've got to know I've got some kind of future to look forward to.

Until Mainline ALPA members start considering the fates of their regional bretheren, ALPA will not have much of a platform to work from to organize other regional airlines.

By the way, how did mainline MEC's ever allow their outsourced work to go to non-union labor in the first place? It seems the battle was completely lost when that happened. Maybe the senior guys got to earn an extra $5/hr out of the deal....
 
Currently, ALPA is more of a "division", not a "union". We need unity, not short trips under the wheels of the bus.
 
XJohXJ and Rickair-

your post are valid..... what are you going to do about it?

We don't need self defeatist in our ranks....
 
Rez O. Lewshun said:
XJohXJ and Rickair-

your post are valid..... what are you going to do about it?

We don't need self defeatist in our ranks....
Click to expand...

I agree.

as to what we're going to do about, as for me I'm not going to join. Your posts seem to suggest that we should 'take one for the team' as it were. do you really believe that managements and MECs would suddenly say 'oh, well now that SkyWest is in the club, we're really gonna step things up around here!' that is a fantasy. there is no evidence to show that we would even keep our current pay, work rules, etc. I agree with Rickair in that we'd probably end up with a concessionary contract.

bad things exist at all regioanals. I don't want to trade ours for what exists at ALPA represented regionals.

this discussion has no end. it is an idealogical debate. someone once told me 'no one in business can truly be honest.' that type of cynicism is what I see reflected in the idea that every pilot group must be represented by ALPA. I respectfully disagree.
 
Rez O. Lewshun said:
XJohXJ and Rickair-

your post are valid..... what are you going to do about it?

We don't need self defeatist in our ranks....
Click to expand...

Without a Mainline number, what can I do about it? Mainline's primary concern seems to be how they can sell us out to marginally increase their senior captains' paychecks. The regionals are completely powerless. Oh, yeah, mayyybeee in about 8 years I could strike (as long as there isn't another anti-labor US Prez.)......

ALL of the power of ALPA comes from mainline MEC's. Without their support, the regionals have nothing. In the case of regional representation, the leadership must come from the top down, 'cause we aren't invited to the table. So far, that leadership has been non-existant.
 
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FlyBunny said:
Why would ANYONE want a union at a company that's being run professionally without the union? What has ALPA (or any other union) done for pilots that SkyWay management hasn't done.

Time for the unions was back in the 20's and 30's...with todays' labor laws...we DO NOT need unions. UNIONS HAVE NOT SERVED THIS COUNTRY WELL!

Say NO to unions.
Look at our Auto industry...going down the 'drain' becuase of unions.

Bunny
Click to expand...

Well you are a moron. Unions served the working class of this country well.

When my grandfather worked the assembly line in dearborn back in the 20's, you had to go to the bathroom at your work station for fear of being replaced/fired if you went to the real bathroom. The assembly line was an extrememly dangerous work place and peopel routinely lost limbs and lifes. Who do you think forced change? The Government? hell no. Unions did, by saying we won't work under these conditions and they got laws passed that made the workplace safer for everyone, not just union members.

The unions served the airline industry well, till lack of innovation, laziness, and poor planning caused the situation we are in now. The willing to do the same job for less by other workgroups is now contributing to the decline of salaries.

The problem with the american auto industry is not the unions. If you think that you are truly ignorant. The other automakers just make a better and more reliable product. Guess what is killing the auto industry? Lack of innovation, laziness and poor planning on the part of management.
 
Bottom line, if ALPA was gaining strength and getting close there would probably more noise from them. From what I've heard that the increase in pilot numbers is diluting the card percentage faster than new cards are coming in.

If that is not true so be it, but from whats going around the crew lounge it looks to be dying. Does any body have any numbers?
 
wmuflyguy said:
Well you are a moron. Unions served the working class of this country well.

When my grandfather worked the assembly line in dearborn back in the 20's, you had to go to the bathroom at your work station for fear of being replaced/fired if you went to the real bathroom. The assembly line was an extrememly dangerous work place and peopel routinely lost limbs and lifes. Who do you think forced change? The Government? hell no. Unions did, by saying we won't work under these conditions and they got laws passed that made the workplace safer for everyone, not just union members.

The unions served the airline industry well, till lack of innovation, laziness, and poor planning caused the situation we are in now. The willing to do the same job for less by other workgroups is now contributing to the decline of salaries.

The problem with the american auto industry is not the unions. If you think that you are truly ignorant. The other automakers just make a better and more reliable product. Guess what is killing the auto industry? Lack of innovation, laziness and poor planning on the part of management.
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The UAW workers that are building Toyota's are doing just fine. The Japs figured out how to make cars better.... That is company leadership not union sandbagging.... good post...
 
CFIT said:
Bottom line, if ALPA was gaining strength and getting close there would probably more noise from them. From what I've heard that the increase in pilot numbers is diluting the card percentage faster than new cards are coming in.

If that is not true so be it, but from whats going around the crew lounge it looks to be dying. Does any body have any numbers?
Click to expand...


CFIT-

Your post paint yourself as a smart guy. I think you'd be great on a safety committee.
 
XJohXJ said:
Without a Mainline number, what can I do about it? Mainline's primary concern seems to be how they can sell us out to marginally increase their senior captains' paychecks. The regionals are completely powerless. Oh, yeah, mayyybeee in about 8 years I could strike (as long as there isn't another anti-labor US Prez.)......
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As a regional without ALPA I think we'd do even worse.....

The goal is to get the mainline guys to tear down the walls.....

Easier said than done.. Regardless lets do it...
 
SkyNation said:
I agree.

as to what we're going to do about, as for me I'm not going to join. Your posts seem to suggest that we should 'take one for the team' as it were. do you really believe that managements and MECs would suddenly say 'oh, well now that SkyWest is in the club, we're really gonna step things up around here!' that is a fantasy. there is no evidence to show that we would even keep our current pay, work rules, etc. I agree with Rickair in that we'd probably end up with a concessionary contract.

Well if thats what you vote on then thats what you;d get...

Are you going to answer the question.. what are you going to do when Skywest comes upon hard times?

bad things exist at all regioanals. I don't want to trade ours for what exists at ALPA represented regionals.

Answer the question: Why do you think Skywest is doing well NOW? You seem to believe that ALPA has caused the problems at other regionals. Is it possible that UAL/DAL is giving you favor status to rpomote the union debate?

this discussion has no end. it is an idealogical debate. someone once told me 'no one in business can truly be honest.' that type of cynicism is what I see reflected in the idea that every pilot group must be represented by ALPA. I respectfully disagree.
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Why do you disagree? If you aren't repsresented or don't have a voice then the camel can get its nose under the tent... your tent. Then we all have to deal with it....
 
CFIT said:
Bottom line, if ALPA was gaining strength and getting close there would probably more noise from them. From what I've heard that the increase in pilot numbers is diluting the card percentage faster than new cards are coming in.

If that is not true so be it, but from whats going around the crew lounge it looks to be dying. Does any body have any numbers?
Click to expand...

I think what you say is most true of all that we hear. Out here members of the OC are admitting themselves that they only have around 35% of the pilot group that has filled out a card. Even members of the OC out here in Chicago are basically admitting they don't think the drive has a very good chance and needs a hail mary to succeed.
 
The questions skywest folks need to answer are do they need a union and if so which one.

My only experience with unions is ALPA. My perception of unions is that they're there to protect labor against mgmt. and the f-ups for getting fired. SkyWest mgmt doesn't seem to be anti-labor like many other alpa carriers (mesa, mesaba, asa)

second, if they feel the need for a union, why does it have to be alpa. I think regionals and mainline should have different unions. One usually grows at the expense of the other so how can you have one union representing ultamitely opposing goals? I say go Teamsters if union is what skywest wants.
 
SSDD said:
While there are a few(key word "few") diehards. There appears to be very little support for it. There are too many refugees from other ALPA carriers that have it worse than Skywest. These guys are making a lot of noise. Also a lot of guys who were instructing 6 months ago working 20 hour days, 6 days/week.
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Too bad they don't realize they had it worse at the other ALPA carriers because of non-ALPA places like SkyWest...
 
ERJFO,

well said. there are just enough skywest pilots like hellonewman (did i mention he is the biggest tool on this board?) that want theirs and screw everyone else. its all about me me me. it really makes me cringe when i read some of this drivel.
 
Rez,

you misunderstand me. I don't blame ALPA for causing the problems that face other regionals. I simply believe that they can't do anything to prevent those problems.

as for why SkyWest has avoided those problems for 35 years now, I give credit to our management, company culture, and attitude of our employees.

what will we do when the bogeyman eventually comes to 'get' us too? I'm not sure, though this is the only argument people seem to be able to come up with when they realize that we in fact have it pretty good here. "yeah, you SkyWest guys have it good now, but you'll get yours someday!!'

I guess we'll go with what works, hope for the best, plan for the worst, etc. etc.

we'll have to agree to disagree. I wish you the best.
 
Rez O. Lewshun said:
The goal is to get the mainline guys to tear down the walls.....

Easier said than done.. Regardless lets do it...
Click to expand...


That is one of the biggest elements right there. ALPA isn't really a union it's just a bunch of local scout troops playing bastketball against each other. Otherwise this would be much better, as it is, I just can't stand behind it.

Think about it, what if DALPA had struck with Comair years ago, their strike would have lasted 6 hours. The problem is the segregation of mainline to the regionals, until that gets fixed, regional level ALPA is screwed. You may get the same pin as the big boys, but we will always be nothing other than wheel chocks to them.

Get that stuff fixed (read conflict of intrest) and I'll be the first to sign up!
 
SkyNation said:
Rez,

you misunderstand me. I don't blame ALPA for causing the problems that face other regionals. I simply believe that they can't do anything to prevent those problems.

as for why SkyWest has avoided those problems for 35 years now, I give credit to our management, company culture, and attitude of our employees.

what will we do when the bogeyman eventually comes to 'get' us too? I'm not sure, though this is the only argument people seem to be able to come up with when they realize that we in fact have it pretty good here. "yeah, you SkyWest guys have it good now, but you'll get yours someday!!'

I guess we'll go with what works, hope for the best, plan for the worst, etc. etc.

we'll have to agree to disagree. I wish you the best.
Click to expand...

Have it pretty good here? HA don't make me laugh.

I bet the girly men in prison think they have it good to. You are such a ho that will do anything to make mgmt think you are a good little $itch
 

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