Is PFT back?

[CRJ200FO]

I agree with KingAirer... The decisions you make can (and will) follow you for a very long time in your career... Don't do something dumb early on...

All of you say that this decision will follow us for the rest of our careers. That pilots at the majors will look down on us.

Well, the fact is that every CA at every major I've jumpseated on has not had anything bad to say about my decision. In fact the most common response from a CA when I handed him my GIA employee ID to jumpseat was: "I'm thinking about sending my kid to Gulfstream, could you give me their phone number?" Or how about this one: "I wish I had that opportunity when I was starting in this industry."

The reality is that the only people who care are you guys on this board like Bobbysamd that were never able to get a real flying job. Get over it and move on. Stop being so obsessed with PFT.

 

[bobbysamd]

Real flying job

I wasn't aware that instructing at (1) a major aviation college; (2) a well-known and very large commercial school that trained self-paying and airline contract students; and (3) an airline-affiliated flight school were not "real" flying jobs. None of which I paid for, by the way. For a time, at one of those "not real" flying jobs, I was earning a salary comparable to salaries paid to commuter captains of the day. The airplanes I was flying, while not turbine, certainly abided by all the laws and science of aeronautics of which most people are aware.

Just for some counterpoint, I took a flight on Continental several months ago. I started talking with some of the pilots. They thought Gulfstream was a joke.

I guess it all depends on who you talk to.

 

[CRJ200FO]

Re: Real flying job

I wasn't aware that instructing at (1) a major aviation college; (2) a well-known and very large commercial school that trained self-paying and airline contract students; and (3) an airline-affiliated flight school were not "real" flying jobs. None of which I paid for, by the way. For a time, at one of those "not real" flying jobs, I was earning a salary comparable to salaries paid to commuter captains of the day. The airplanes I was flying, while not turbine, certainly abided by all the laws and science of aeronautics of which most people are aware.

Just for some counterpoint, I took a flight on Continental several months ago. I started talking with some of the pilots. They thought Gulfstream was a joke.

I guess it all depends on who you talk to.

If you liked your job at these schools so much, why were you so desperate to get a job a regional? Why are you not still flight instructing?

 

[banned username 2]

All of you say that this decision will follow us for the rest of our careers. That pilots at the majors will look down on us.

Well, the fact is that every CA at every major I've jumpseated on has not had anything bad to say about my decision. In fact the most common response from a CA when I handed him my GIA employee ID to jumpseat was: "I'm thinking about sending my kid to Gulfstream, could you give me their phone number?" Or how about this one: "I wish I had that opportunity when I was starting in this industry."

The reality is that the only people who care are you guys on this board like Bobbysamd that were never able to get a real flying job. Get over it and move on. Stop being so obsessed with PFT.

All this from the SAME guy who in another post said:

"Don't worry, I won't ever being applying to SWA. I won't sink to that level. I'd rather sit right seat on CRJ for the rest of my career.

The problem is that there are many pilots willing to go there and they are driving the salaries in the rest of the industry down. How can the pilots at Airtran for example ask for more money when mgmt can just say "Well, the pilots at SWA are willing to do it for lower. Why should I pay you more?"

It's time that you face the facts that what happens at another airline affects things at the airline you work. If Bigsky pilots are willing to work for $10 an hour then why would PCL be willing to pay me $30? It's another case of pilots f*cking pilots. When you accept lower pay at your airline it drives pay down at mine. If you allowed market forces to determine pilot salaries then a 747 CA would be making $30,000 a year. Don't fool yourself into thinking that mgmt would pay more out of the goodness of their hearts. They don't have any."

So you won't "sink" to the "low wages" of SWA, BUT you will SINK to paying a company $18,000 for a job???

Well like you said, if pilots accept low wages then thats what the companies will pay, and so will all the other companies....

Well the same holds true, if Pilots are willing to Pay-For-Training then all the companies will eventually make pilots do this...

You talk with fork tongue, Pale Face.... You are totally contradicting yourself... in on thread you defend Pay-for-training (probably because THAT is what you did) and in another you talk about "upholding the high quality of compensation and benefits for pilots" but your ACTIONS (which ALWAYS speak louder than words) says you'll do whatever you need to get YOURSELF ahead... i.e. PFT...

You'd best start saving up for that 747 Type Rating, I think it will cost a little more than the $18,000 you already paid to get into this Industry....

I think you have a lot to learn... a lot...

Oh, and Junior... leave Bobbysamd alone, if Daddy didn't cough up the $18,000 for you to actually get hired somewhere at 850 hours you'd be sitting in the right seat of some 152 doing touch n' go's with a student...

 

[CRJ200FO]

All this from the SAME guy who in another post said:



So you won't "sink" to the "low wages" of SWA, BUT you will SINK to paying a company $10,000 for a job???

Well like you said, if pilots accept low wages then thats what the companies will pay, and so will all the other companies....

Well the same holds true, if Pilots are willing to Pay-For-Training then all the companies will eventually make pilots do this...

You talk with fork tongue, Pale Face.... You are totally contradicting yourself... in on thread you defend Pay-for-training (probably because THAT is what you did) and in another you talk about "upholding the high quality of compensation and benefits for pilots" but your ACTIONS (which ALWAYS speak louder than words) says you'll do whatever you need to get YOURSELF ahead... i.e. PFT...

You'd best start saving up for that 747 Type Rating, I think it will cost a little more than the $10,000 you already paid to get into this Industry....

I think you have a lot to learn... a lot...

Oh, and Junior... leave Bobbysamd alone, if Daddy didn't cough up the $10,000 for you to actually get hired somewhere at 850 hours you'd be sitting in the right seat of some 152 doing touch n' go's with a student...

I would contend that there is nothing wrong with paying for training for an ENTRY level job. That is all that GIA is. You are paying for experience. Not a job.

Gulfstream would not even exist if it were not for PFT. You are not taking someone else's job by paying for training because there wouldn't be a job without the FO program. Tom Cooper never had any intention of running an airline. The airline he started was just a way to sell his flight school. There has been PFT at GIA since they were a C_402 operator when they started. If the PFT stopped then the airline would cease operation. GIA doesn't make any money. Their flight school does. Going to GIA is no different than going to Ari Ben Aviator in Ft. Pierce to get multi time. All you are doing is paying for experience. No qualified pilots are having their jobs stolen by PFT'ers at GIA. On the other hand, many qualified pilots are not able to get jobs at SWA because they refuse to pay for their type rating. Seems a lot worse than GIA to me.

Oh, and by the way. "Daddy" didn't pay. I have a hefty loan I'll be paying off for quite some time. And as for instructing experience, I was a sim and ground instuctor for about a year and half. I've spent about 1500 hours instructing in Frascas and Be-1900 sims. I also have done about 150 hours dual given in the cessnas you refer to. I didn't enjoy it, so I stopped. Pretty simple.

 

[Vik]

The problem with what GIA does is that you pay, get X hours and then are kicked to the curb.

 

[JetPilot500]

Let me call Gulfstream right now and thank them for providing such a wonderful service to the aviation community!

I would contend that there is nothing wrong with paying for training for an ENTRY level job. That is all that GIA is. You are paying for experience. Not a job.

Gulfstream would not even exist if it were not for PFT. You are not taking someone else's job by paying for training because there wouldn't be a job without the FO program. Tom Cooper never had any intention of running an airline. The airline he started was just a way to sell his flight school. There has been PFT at GIA since they were a C_402 operator when they started. If the PFT stopped then the airline would cease operation. GIA doesn't make any money. Their flight school does. Going to GIA is no different than going to Ari Ben Aviator in Ft. Pierce to get multi time. All you are doing is paying for experience. No qualified pilots are having their jobs stolen by PFT'ers at GIA. On the other hand, many qualified pilots are not able to get jobs at SWA because they refuse to pay for their type rating. Seems a lot worse than GIA to me.

That is quite a short sided view. Airlines exist because people are demanding a service to take them from one place to another. To say that "No qualified pilots are having their jobs stolen by PFT'ers at GIA" is rediculous. If GIA didn't exist, some other airline would have to be in place to fill those "demanded" routes. And those pilots would be paid for the work they perform.

GIA is a sleezebag operation, no matter how you look at it. They are not performing any service to the aviation community, only a dis-service! And to think they are running an airline to break-even and help their flight school student is rediculous.

Oh, and by the way. "Daddy" didn't pay. I have a hefty loan I'll be paying off for quite some time. And as for instructing experience, I was a sim and ground instuctor for about a year and half. I've spent about 1500 hours instructing in Frascas and Be-1900 sims. I also have done about 150 hours dual given in the cessnas you refer to. I didn't enjoy it, so I stopped. Pretty simple.

I could say so much here, but I won't!


JetPilot500

 

[CRJ200FO]

The problem with what GIA does is that you pay, get X hours and then are kicked to the curb.

Look, I'm not trying to say that GIA is a great place to go. I'm certainly not recommending it to people with the industry the way it is now. Now is not the best time to be getting into aviation, PFT or not. All I'm saying is that if you need multi-turbine 121 experience, then GIA is one way to go. I would certainly not argue with your point about GIA kicking people to the curb. I have many friends that have been screwed by GIA and Tom Cooper.

 

[CRJ200FO]

I could say so much here, but I won't!

No, please do! As if the PFT issue hasn't been beaten to death on this board enought already. We are talking about pay and unions on another thread and you bring PFT into that too! It is obvious that none of us are going to agree about this ever. I only posted on this thread to clear up the fact that PCL is not requiring people to PFT and instead I got dragged into the whole PFT debate again. I think it's time we put this issue away for awhile. You have stronly held beliefs about this and so do I. We aren't going to change each other's minds about this.

Bobbysamd: I would like to apologize for any personal attacks I made against you during this debate. Sometimes things are said in the middle of an arguement that are later regretted. I realize that you are very knowledgable in many areas of aviation and have a good amount of experience. I didn't mean to belittle your job as a CFI, only to point out that that was not what your ultimate career goals were in aviation. Again, I apologize.

And that is last thing I have to say about PFT for a long time. N9103M was right, we need to stop debating this issue. It's going nowhere.

 

[bobbysamd]

Real flying job

If you liked your job at these schools so much, why were you so desperate to get a job a regional? Why are you not still flight instructing?

Well, for one thing, back in 1990-'92, there virtually no regional jobs except for P-F-T. I've already addressed that issue ad nauseum. The other thing is I was competing against furloughed Eastern and Pan Am pilots and I was 40. Someone like me with my quals competing against the former is virtually impossible. As far as the latter is concerned, those in my peer group, who were also flight instructors and primarily 25 and under, were getting the regional jobs. I, at 40, was barely getting replies. You figure it out.

I never, really and truly, gave up on getting a job with the regionals. I put it on the back burner. I had to face reality in 1990-'92 that there was no hiring. So, I took the flight instructing direction, although I still pursued certain regionals. There were some that I pursued for about six years. I guess that I was one of the few newer pilots of my era who enjoyed flight instructing, however . . . .

There comes a time when reality hits. I had just lost a job. I had too many strikes against me. I needed a job that paid money. And, that's why I took the direction that I did - though I continued to apply during the next year.

To give you an idea of the hiring mentality one faces, the October, 1993 Career Pilot magazine had two articles that sent conflicting messages. One article was about flight instructing. That article essentially stated that if you build time you will be attractive to the airlines. The other article featured SkyWest, and quoted a Dale Merrill, who was Vice-President of Human Resources at SkyWest. Mr. Merrill said that if a regional hadn't hired you by something like 2500 hours that you were labeled as "having problems" and in need of a "hard look." By that time, I had the hours you see on the left, built up through flight instructing. Hello, Mr. Merrill! I was working, was current, and was building experience while so many other pilots were not current and not working I submit that Mr. Merrill's attitude is typical of regional H.R. coneheadedness. That's what I was up against. That's why I made the decision I made.

One other thing about Gulfstream. I understand that its FOs are paid during the time they're building their 250 hours. Now, it might be only temporary work, but, correct me if I'm wrong, it's still work and is being compensated therefor.

Don't worry about your comments above, Mr. CRJ. Apology accepted.

 

[banned username 2]

Gulfstream would not even exist if it were not for PFT. You are not taking someone else's job by paying for training because there wouldn't be a job without the FO program.

So does that mean the Captain's at GIA are there SOLELY for the purpose of being the second crewmember so you can get your coveted multi time???

Give me a break, justify it any way you want... PFT takes jobs from other pilots... period...

and you complain about SWA hurting the industry...

better go look in the mirror, you'll see the culprit looking right back at you...

 

[T-Gates]

C'mon guys......Like I said before this is a dead issue that has been debated for years now. There is not much reason to continue bashing PFT so harshly. Few pilots on this board speak out for PFT. Some who have get so frustrated with the answers they recieve they give up all together. CRJ200FO brings up good points but he is one of the few to really take a stand for his background. He should be admired for it. Why should he "mumble" his GIA background to those who ask him who he flew for prior to Pinnacle? Flying for Gulfstream got him where he is now but only by making sacrifices just like every other junior pilot at a small regional. I personally know him and he and I both put in long hours studying and he taught be much of what I know about the 1900. He made equal sacrifices to that of anyone who did not pay-for-training. The man was hired at a young age to teach 1900 simulator to people twice his age. He would stay up long hours for carppy pay. Just like any of your Cessna 152 CFI's. So I joined him in the ranks of GIA and took the same path he did. Almost exactly. He made it to Pinnacle on his own merit. Not because he paid but because he put in long hours of studying and work to get where he is. Neither of us came to GIA to step on the toes of those who chose not to pay. But we are treated as such. The funny thing is that the people who convinced me to attend GIA and pay my 18,000 were not employees of thier company. They were captains at ASA, Delta, United... I would ask them thier opinions and they all gave me a thumbs up to attend. I am not going to say that every major airline captain approves of what I did but I was brought up not to dwell on what others think of me. I hold no doubt as Bobby said that pilots at Continental think Gulfsream is a joke. But I hope that they know that many of thier fellow pilots at CO are sending thier sons and daughters to GIA for thier training because they believe in the program. I'm sure that many thousands of pilots would love to get a GIA grad in thier cockpit to take a cheap shot at him for the sole fact that be flew 250 hours for GIA. But I have been told by many that they would gladly fly with me. I am not endorsing Gulfstream but, I just want to say that the views that are expressed here pro/against PFT do not represent all pilots. There may be a majority that do not like PFT but I will respect thier opinion. I just hope they will allow me to give my side of the story and respect my opinion as well. Many of you like to take cheap shots at GIA's first officers and then hide behind screen names on a Bulliten Board. Or save what you really think after he has already turned his back after you sign his jumpseat form. The truth is that many of you will not give any GIA pilot the time of day for his opinions. Which really defeats the whole purpose of this message board. To those of you who publicly vocalize to those who paid you that you dislike what they did, I just hope that if one day you do so on my jumpseat or in the crew room,you will sit through my dissertation with as much open-mindedness as I gave yours. But I feel this post will have been written in vein as myself and CRJ200FO are in a minority on this board.

Happy Flying,

N9103M
Out-of-work GIA First Officer

 

[CRJ200FO]

GIA sucks. Compared to guys like bobbysamd who have worked their a$$es off, you Gulfscreamers dont deserve your jobs. What is it about these young punks who get CRJ jobs? It goes straight to your heads. At 850 hours, youre not fit to lick our boots!

And we are the one's with the big egos? Give me a fuc*ing break.

 

[banned username 2]

But I feel this post will have been written in vein as myself and CRJ200FO are in a minority on this board.

I can understand how you feel like this, and you are correct, you very definately are the minority on the topic (by a HUGE margin)...

And you know why???

Because when PFT was rampant in this industry, you and CRJ200FO were riding your bikes and putting playing cards in your spokes to make that clicking sound... You weren't doing your homework because in 4th grade they don't give out homework... Your interest in aviation (if you had any at that point) was that planes looked cool...

You didn't know (or would have understood) what was going on in the industry and how wide spread of a problem it became, and how many true professionals it affected... How many guys who were highly qualified (but financially broke) 2,500+ hour pilots couldn't get hired (even with internal recommendations and a spotless record) but some 1,500 hour guy who happened to have $10,000 to pay for his training could get the job... (PFT was typically $10,000 back in 1991)

PFT is no where as widespread as it was back in 1991... If it was, you would really see some eye-opening information on this board... No one faults you because you are young, but you are arguing a point that you really don't understand the background... and how far back it goes...

And I doubt at 9 years old, CRJ200FO knew anything about what was going on in the airline industry, except that planes were cool... If we only had a time machine to be able to show you how much harm PFT did to many, many pilots careers... you might have thought differently about paying up the $18,000 so quickly... But then again, maybe not... it all comes down to character...

 

[CRJ200FO]

But I feel this post will have been written in vein as myself and CRJ200FO are in a minority on this board.

You're right about that. No one will ever listen to an opposing viewpoint on this board. They will simply continue to spew the same foul rhetoric over and over again. It really is a shame, because places like this message board could really make a difference if used correctly. Our time would be much better spent discussing the McCain-Lott bill that will destroy labor in the airline industry, but instead we are still beating the same dead PFT horse. It really is a shame. Thank you for the kind words, though.