is pay negotiable?

[Flying Illini]

How negotiable <sp?> is a pilot's salary at a corporate flight department? Are bigger depts. willing to negotiate more than a smaller dept.? How do you breach the topic without offending the person across the table from you? Who is usually the person to go to...CP, Dir. of Ops?

 

[TonyC]

How negotiable <sp?> is a pilot's salary at a corporate flight department? Are bigger depts. willing to negotiate more than a smaller dept.? How do you breach the topic without offending the person across the table from you?

In the first place, I recommend you broach the subject, rather than breach it.

Second, I'd recommend you begin with a phrase that includes the word "compensation." Compensation implies by its defintion that you are providing something to the employer, and they should give you something of equivalent value. Using the word reminds them that you are doing your part, and it's only fair that they do their part. While presenting your position, you must convince the company that you are providing a service worthy of the compensation you seek, because just compensation is equivalent to the service provided.

"I would like to discuss my compensation" carries far more weight than "Now, about my pay." Using words like pay or salary or hourly rates, while describing what the company gives you, fail to recognize what you've given, or are giving, or will give to the company. When negotiating, you need to highlight the value you bring to the company, and your choice of words is critical.

Do your homework, develop a presentation, and practice delivering it. Practice in front of a mirror. Speak out loud - - the words are never the same as when they're just in your head. Practice until you feel comfortable hearing yourself ask for an improved compensation package, and then try delivering it to close friends. Solicit honest, critical feedback, and take it to heart.

Then, confidently approach the person who makes the call, and convince them why your compensation lags behind the service you provide, and what it needs to be to be considered equitable. If you don't know who to approach, ask around. "Who should I talk to about compensation?" is a fair question to ask. But don't ask it until you're ready to begin the presentation, because the answer might be, "Me," and you can't start off with stammering.


Good Luck!

 

[Flying Illini]

In the first place, I recommend you broach the subject, rather than breach it.

Yeah, that's the word I meant! Thanks for the good advice.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

of course pay is negotiable. very negotiable.

all depends on how bad you want the job and you have to be prepared to walk away if you dont get what you need.

Do your research though...if you know the range is say 90-110K dont walk in and say 130K - you will get strange looks.

As any job, get your pay coming in the door or forever hold your peace.

 

[Publishers]

Start soft, what level of compensation were you thinking about? What type benefits and schedules would I have?

Do not talk about your needs -- they are yours not theirs.

I was looking for something a bit higher,,, is it open for discussion?

If I come in at a certain level, what are the prospects for more compensation in the near term if I prove my worth.

Try and not overdo or state the value thing.

I had a former Marine and airline pilot who was at retirement age tell me repeatedly that he cost more and set a high standard and that my company or another would be blessed to have a person such as himself. His ego alone would not have fit our aircraft.

 

[Otter]

Everything in life is negotiable. However, that being said, not every negotiation ends with both parties equally satisfied, and in the case of potential employer negotiations, if they do not like what you are proposing the end of negotiations are usually short at hand.

Much like has already been said, the greater success comes when you negotiate for the highest number they intend to offer, not negotiate a number that they are not even considering. Get in to their head first, then make your play.

 

[Resume Writer]

Salary Article

Here is an article I wrote some time ago on this very issue. Hope this helps!

Kathy

Winning Salary Negotiation Techniques

By Kathy Sweeney

The Write Resume





Here’s an ideal scenario: After a number of job interviews with a prospective employer who is hiring someone for the job of your dreams, you’re again meeting with the hiring manager when she turns to face you and gives you the job offer, but at a salary below what you had expected. You are still excited, elated actually, but what you do next could have consequences for years to come.



Even if the job offer is acceptable to you, most career experts agree that you should take the time to clear your head and consider the offer - away from the pressure of an interview. So, make sure to thank the interviewer for the job offer and express your interest in the job and the company, but ask for some time to consider all the details.





Negotiable Elements of a Job Offer :



Salary



Non-salary Compensation: signing bonus; performance bonus; profit-sharing, deferred compensation; severance package, stock options



Relocation Expenses: house-hunting, temporary living allowance, closing costs, travel expenses, spouse job-hunting/re-employment expenses



Benefits: vacation days (number, amount paid, timing), personal days, sick days, insurance (medical, dental, vision, life, disability), automobile (or other transportation) allowance, professional training/conference attendance, continuing education (tuition reimbursement), professional memberships, club (country or athletic) memberships, product discounts, clothing allowance, short-term loans



Job-Specific: frequency of performance reviews, job title/role/duties, location/office, telecommuting, work hours and flexibility, starting date, performance standards/goals





But what if the offer is unacceptable to you? If it really is one of your dream jobs -- or even simply a job you really want -- you should consider moving into the negotiation phase by making a counter proposal to the employer. That’s what this article is all about - taking you through the key negotiation strategies you should apply and providing you with one key tool -- the counter proposal letter -- as a means to negotiating a better offer for yourself.



Key Salary Negotiation Strategies

• Delay salary and benefit negotiations for as long as possible in the interview process. You’ll have more power to negotiate when the field of candidates has been reduced to just you -- when the employer is completely sold on you as the best candidate for the position.

• Remember that you’ll have your greatest negotiation leverage between the time the employer makes the original offer and the time you accept the final offer. Once you accept an offer, you have little to no room to negotiate.

• Don’t negotiate at the time the initial job offer is made. Thank the employer for the offer and express your strong interest and enthusiasm in the job, but state that you’ll need time to evaluate the entire compensation package. Most employers are willing to give you a fair amount of time to review -- and if you run across an employer who wants a decision immediately, consider long and hard whether you want to work for such a company.

• Do your research. The greatest tool in any negotiation is information. Make sure you have done a thorough job of determining your fair market value for the job you are seeking, the salary range of the job for this specific employer, and geographic, economic, industry, and company-specific factors that might affect the given salary. Also try to obtain information on the employer’s standard benefits package so that you have information beyond salary.

• Just do it. While a large percentage of corporate recruiters (four out of five in one study conducted by the Society for Human Resource Management) are willing to negotiate compensation, only a small percentage of job-seekers actually do so. You don’t have to be an expert negotiator to get a sweeter deal; you just need to know the rules and strategies of negotiation.

• Negotiate to your strength. If you are a smooth talker (an extravert), call the employer and ask for a follow-up meeting to discuss a counter proposal. If you communicate better in writing, follow our guidelines for writing a counter proposal letter (below).

• Always ask for a higher salary (within acceptable limits) than you are willing to accept so that when the employer counters your proposal, the salary should be near your original goal. And when possible, try and show how your actions (once on board) will recoup the extra amount (or more) that you are seeking -- through cost savings or increased sales revenue, productivity, efficiencies.

• If the salary you’re offered is on the low end - and the employer has stated that salary is not negotiable (probably due to corporate salary ranges or pay grade levels), consider negotiating for a signing bonus, higher performance bonuses, or a shorter time frame for a performance review and raise. Always negotiate base salary first, and then move on to other elements of the job offer.

• When presenting a counter proposal to the employer, be sure and include a few benefits that are expendable so that you can drop them in a concession to the employer as negotiations continue.

• Remember that even if all salary issues are “off the table,” there are still numerous other benefits you can negotiate, such as moving expenses, paid vacation or personal days, professional training, and more. See the sidebar for the entire list of negotiable items.

• Never stop selling yourself throughout the negotiation process. Keep reminding the employer of the impact you will make, the problems you will solve, the revenue you will generate. And continue expressing interest and enthusiasm for the job and the company.

• If you have no intention of accepting the company’s offer, don’t waste your time or the company’s by entering into negotiation. Negotiation is a process designed to find common ground between two or more parties.

• If you have multiple job offers, don’t put the companies into a bidding war for your services; it rarely works out.

• Don’t enter negotiations with the wrong attitude. Always have in the back of your mind that your goal with these negotiations is a win-win situation. You want to get a better deal, but you also need to let the employer feel as though they got a good deal as well.

• Given a number of factors, such as the strength of the economy, the size and vitality of the company, and the supply of job candidates with similar qualifications, some employers simply will not negotiate.

• Never make demands. Instead, raise questions and make requests during negotiations. Keep the tone conversational, not confrontational.

• Be prepared for any of a number of possible reactions to your counter proposal, from complete acceptance to agreeing to some concessions to refusal to negotiate.

Continued on next post......

 

[Resume Writer]

Article Continued

Article Continued....

• You have to be willing to walk away from negotiations. If you don’t have a strong position (a good current job or one or more current or potential job offers), it will be harder for you to negotiate. If you really need or want the job, be more careful in your negotiations.

• Once the employer agrees to your compensation requests, the negotiations are over. You cannot ask for anything more - or risk appearing immature or greedy and having the employer’s offer withdrawn or rescinded.

• Always be sure to get the final offer in writing. Be extremely wary of companies that are not willing to do so.

Salary Negotiation is an area in which the struggle for power is most evident. The determination of who controls the situation is always one that is in question. However, armed with the information we have provided, salary negotiation should be easier to achieve.

 

[mainah]

Is pay negotiable?

To quote the movie Blazing Saddles- "You bet your ass!"

 

[350DRIVER]

Not to come across as a smart @ss but at 870 hours TT I don't think that you are going to be overly successful in "negotiating" any sort of raise, salary, etc, that would play into your favor. Very few at your low TT will be able to get into the right seat of a Falcon so if I were you I would probably not be too outspoken in your demands.


Salary is very negotiable IF you have the "experience", flight times, etc, that would warrant this.

too many low time guys are out there that are willing to fly for peanuts just to get into that jet and wear that nice shiny uniform so the odds are against you here.

disregard this if you are not relating this thread to your current situation, I couldn't tell from the information that you have provided.

3 5 0

 

[Flying Illini]

Nope, this thread isn't about my current situation. It was just a curiosity of mine. Now I know.

 

[G4G5]

Your pay is directly proportionate to your ability to negotiate. Have a figure in mind, your bottom line. Then wait and see what is offered. Traditionally a future employer will not squawk at an additional couple of thousand, up to around 5k.

Here is my tip, if you can not get the money get the time off. My present employer and were getting close and I was starting to get the feeling that I had reqched their limit. We were about to strike a deal when I informed them that I had a relative getting married in Europe and that I would require an additional week of vacation. Surprisingly they did not squawk one bit. i have been able to negotiate an additional week of vacation out of more then one employer. Apparently time off does not come out of the same budget at salery.

 

[CatYaaak]

How negotiable <sp?> is a pilot's salary at a corporate flight department? Are bigger depts. willing to negotiate more than a smaller dept.? How do you breach the topic without offending the person across the table from you? Who is usually the person to go to...CP, Dir. of Ops?

Larger, established departments are usually more structured, and this goes for starting pay ranges. Granted, anything is possible, but realistically you probably won't have much luck going up and above them unless you bring some kind of critical experience they need right away (exmple; a wealth of international experience and they're starting to expand into this realm, and the current in-house pilots have little or none). Av Dept managers still have to develop, abide by, and justify budgets, and there's really no way to guess how much wiggle room they get. The current pilot market makes breaking the established ceiling much tougher because the truly good flight departments always have heaps of resume's with qualified candidates.

At the larger ones, negotiate salary with whoever does the interviewing and broaches the subject. It's standard for you to be asked what your salary requirements are, or given the range up front. Just don't negotiate yourself out of the running for the sake of it if the salary's good, and it's a job you really want. Most compensation packages at Fortune 100 companies are designed to keep you happy. The hard work is getting in the door and getting the job, not making car or house payments afterwards.

With small, or especially start-up flight departments, anything can happen in negotiations depending on who's signing-off on the salary. There ARE a few examples of people getting crazy-money to fly Barons, and an already well-paid friend of mine was offered not double, but triple his already-great salary to stick around a private-company Gulfstream job because the owner liked him, but these types of wildly-negotiable salaries are usually found in the realm of flying either for private individuals/-held companies where salaries aren't ultimately justified to shareholders, and are not the norm. For these, ultimately you're usually negotiating with the head of the company either directly or via designee (another pilot, Exec asst..etc).

The norm for smaller, public companies is negotiating with whoever is in charge of the flight department, usually a CP who also wears the had of Dept. Manager. Go into negotiations keeping in mind that especially for a small company, even a one-airplane flight department's budget looks huge, and the natural enemy of a pilot is the accountant. Some CPs in this situation fool themselves into thinking that if they offer peanuts, it'll help save a department operating on a shoestring if company fortunes turn and the accountants daggers come out. It won't. So, if the starting pay offered is so low that you REALLY have to negotiate a comfortable salary, my advice is to steer clear unless you like living like a spartan. Conditions won't change even when times are good.

With a sincere attitude, you won't offend anyone with negotiating salary, and taking Tony C's advice you can't go wrong. One caveat however...KNOW what the corporate industry-standard salary ranges are for the job you're applying for, given the equipment and the region you'll be based, and begin there. Shoot just over the top, everyone expects that and raises everyone's salary in the end. The CPs and Av managers of large depts who know, and especially if it's your first corporate job, going crazy with demands will have them wondering what else you haven't researched.