Is Delta going to Furlough?

[Rick James]

Rick,

Do I look like a CEO with all of the answers? Thanks anyway.

Bye Bye--General Lee

You have to be joking. Almost every post you make has something to do with the forward progress of Delta and expectation of profits, example Song. Now all of the sudden when you dont have a prompt answer to an honest question your retort is this. That's OK, I wish you luck in your current situation.

 

[General Lee]

You have to be joking. Almost every post you make has something to do with the forward progress of Delta and expectation of profits, example Song. Now all of the sudden when you dont have a prompt answer to an honest question your retort is this. That's OK, I wish you luck in your current situation.

You ask me questions that I really can't answer. Write Grinstein a letter if you want an answer with authority. Song did make profits compared to the old Delta Express service, and even against mainline service. The problem we had is that we were taking planes away from mainline to create Song, not buying new airplanes. Those planes had to be replaced with smaller planes(MD88s etc) and the RJs even had to replace 737s, which didn't help things with business travelers. Thanks for your good wishes.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[banger]

You ask me questions that I really can't answer. Write Grinstein a letter if you want an answer with authority. Song did make profits compared to the old Delta Express service, and even against mainline service. The problem we had is that we were taking planes away from mainline to create Song, not buying new airplanes. Those planes had to be replaced with smaller planes(MD88s etc) and the RJs even had to replace 737s, which didn't help things with business travelers. Thanks for your good wishes.

Bye Bye--General Lee

General
How do you know this? Delta hides Song's figures inside Delta figures. Even the most knowledgeable airline analysts have not been able to guess. And I'm not slammin' ya here, I just want to know if there is something I am missing. Or are you just guessing based on what you see as loads.

 

[IAHERJ]

I believe GL in that Song was profitable. Look at CAL. Guess which aircraft they will be deploying from EWR to all the florida destinations? The 757-300 which has the lowest CASM in the industry. With Jetblue's cost structure, they might be able to compete with an A321 but I think CAL's 757-300's are going to really be a competitor with the East Coast configuration they are planning to use and the new entertainment systems discussed in threads a few weeks ago. My point is that the 75's Song operated with the costs associated with the FA's Song contract etc. lead me to believe that they indeed could have been profitable.



IAHERJ

 

[General Lee]

General
How do you know this? Delta hides Song's figures inside Delta figures. Even the most knowledgeable airline analysts have not been able to guess. And I'm not slammin' ya here, I just want to know if there is something I am missing. Or are you just guessing based on what you see as loads.

Banger,

No, I didn't ask for ticket prices from each passenger. I do remember that article that I now cannot find with Grinstein saying it was profitable, and I have talked to the Song ex-President (who supposedly left after personal problems with a stew there?) who said it was doing very well. Other than that, I don't have access to that type of info. I heard it from the top. Take it or leave it.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[dtfl]

Spooky that wasnt directed at you - I agree with you about GG. However, you sure are acting like an ass now. And telling me meeting you might be unpleasant for me.
Grow up man...this isn't 4th grade?

 

[banger]

Banger,

No, I didn't ask for ticket prices from each passenger. I do remember that article that I now cannot find with Grinstein saying it was profitable, and I have talked to the Song ex-President (who supposedly left after personal problems with a stew there?) who said it was doing very well. Other than that, I don't have access to that type of info. I heard it from the top. Take it or leave it.

Bye Bye--General Lee

Well see thats kinda my point. I do remember the article your refering to (can't find it either) and I thought GG did not use the term "profitable". Terms like "doing very well" don't really mean making money either. Higher ups at JB say Song is losing money wherever they fly. Now I'm not saying they are correct eithier. It would be interesting to know for sure. I'm guessing a Judge is gonna look at the numbers some time in the future, and if Song is not turning its own profit, he'll say " change it or stop it".

 

[Spooky 1]

Spooky that wasnt directed at you - I agree with you about GG. However, you sure are acting like an ass now. And telling me meeting you might be unpleasant for me.
Grow up man...this isn't 4th grade?

More names? Grow up yourself.

 

[Launchpad]

With regards to the original post, there has been no announcement of any furloughs. It depends on a number of things, they did just recall 3 people from the short list today to fill the Oct recall class.

Just FYI-

 

[wms]

You ask me questions that I really can't answer. Write Grinstein a letter if you want an answer with authority. Song did make profits compared to the old Delta Express service, and even against mainline service. The problem we had is that we were taking planes away from mainline to create Song, not buying new airplanes. Those planes had to be replaced with smaller planes(MD88s etc) and the RJs even had to replace 737s, which didn't help things with business travelers. Thanks for your good wishes.

Bye Bye--General Lee

I was on the golf course with GG last week. He just said "shut up and give me a wedge".

 

[skykid]

I was on the golf course with GG last week. He just said "shut up and give me a wedge".

I golfed with him this morning. He told me he wanted a wedgie. Are you sure you heard right?

 

[Networ-King]

ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

you guys kill me.


Next time GG ask for a wedge, well....... you give it to him. RIGHT OVER THE HEAD .

THEN RRRRRRUUUUUUNNNNNNNN!!!!!

 

[Sky Cowboy]

For what it is worth Mr. Grinstein said to me personally that HE would not furlough and that HE will respect the current PWA to include SLOA #45 (the PRP Agreement) and furloughed pilot job protections contained therein. Mr. Grinstein also said that the decision was not up to him but rather A.) the bankruptcy judge, and more importantly B.) DALPA, who by the way in Mr. Grinstein's opinion "will allow furloughs" as part of the soon-to-ongoing concessionary discussions.

So there it is in a nut shell. Management won't have to furlough because DALPA will sacrifice its' young willingly and eagerly.

It is really quite academic when viewed at the macro level. Historically no legacy carrier has ever gone bankrupt and not furloughed pilots. Adding to that, in light the current pension crisis, DALPA is desperate to give away what little negotiating collateral it has left to save the golden calf. The furloughed pilots will be the first thing they will throw under the bus hoping to give the wheels traction. Unfortunately, the wheels have fallen off the wagon at Delta.

As one MEC member told me personally, "DALPA will not gut our contract over just one issue," that being job protection. While that is certainly true for the pilots already on the street as well as those about to be re-furloughed, we shall see what the fight yeilds with respect to the pension. I suspect we will be flying for similar pay rates and work rules as UAL. Sadly their sacrifice did not save their pension.

I suspect that DALPA will give away everything and more waging a pointless battle. UAL and US Air have already paved the road to the PBGC. The only thing that can save us now is Congressional reform, which most likely will come too little, too late. Unfortunately Congress has pushed this issue to the back burner while it passes legislation for Hurricane Katrina relief.

Like the line in "The Right Stuff" so aptly put it... "Funding makes those birds fly. No bucks. No Buck Rogers." It ain't rocket science. High fuel prices and low fares cannot be overcome by charity from labor.

 

[General Lee]

For what it is worth Mr. Grinstein said to me personally that HE would not furlough and that HE will respect the current PWA to include SLOA #45 (the PRP Agreement) and furloughed pilot job protections contained therein. Mr. Grinstein also said that the decision was not up to him but rather A.) the bankruptcy judge, and more importantly B.) DALPA, who by the way in Mr. Grinstein's opinion "will allow furloughs" as part of the soon-to-ongoing concessionary discussions.

So there it is in a nut shell. Management won't have to furlough because DALPA will sacrifice its' young willingly and eagerly.

It is really quite academic when viewed at the macro level. Historically no legacy carrier has ever gone bankrupt and not furloughed pilots. Adding to that, in light the current pension crisis, DALPA is desperate to give away what little negotiating collateral it has left to save the golden calf. The furloughed pilots will be the first thing they will throw under the bus hoping to give the wheels traction. Unfortunately, the wheels have fallen off the wagon at Delta.

As one MEC member told me personally, "DALPA will not gut our contract over just one issue," that being job protection. While that is certainly true for the pilots already on the street as well as those about to be re-furloughed, we shall see what the fight yeilds with respect to the pension. I suspect we will be flying for similar pay rates and work rules as UAL. Sadly their sacrifice did not save their pension.

I suspect that DALPA will give away everything and more waging a pointless battle. UAL and US Air have already paved the road to the PBGC. The only thing that can save us now is Congressional reform, which most likely will come too little, too late. Unfortunately Congress has pushed this issue to the back burner while it passes legislation for Hurricane Katrina relief.

Like the line in "The Right Stuff" so aptly put it... "Funding makes those birds fly. No bucks. No Buck Rogers." It ain't rocket science. High fuel prices and low fares cannot be overcome by charity from labor.

The pensions are gone. Bye bye. And that is huge compared to the guys at NW who never had that 50% lump sum option. They will sacrifice their young over there. Over here, we will flush the rest of it down the toilet. And, we are now a young pilot group--less than 400 guys over 50. The old timers won't be able to win the majority this time.... (I am a young 40)

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[dtfl]

For what it is worth Mr. Grinstein said to me personally that HE would not furlough and that HE will respect the current PWA to include SLOA #45 (the PRP Agreement) and furloughed pilot job protections contained therein. Mr. Grinstein also said that the decision was not up to him but rather A.) the bankruptcy judge, and more importantly B.) DALPA, who by the way in Mr. Grinstein's opinion "will allow furloughs" as part of the soon-to-ongoing concessionary discussions.

Inetersting. I hate to say it but I see this in the future - DALPA denying this...and then it happening. Maybe I am just jaded.
Anyone posted this on the DALPA boards to see what the MEC folks have to say?

 

[Spooky 1]

The pensions are gone. Bye bye. And that is huge compared to the guys at NW who never had that 50% lump sum option. They will sacrifice their young over there. Over here, we will flush the rest of it down the toilet. And, we are now a young pilot group--less than 400 guys over 50. The old timers won't be able to win the majority this time.... (I am a young 40)

Bye Bye--General Lee

So General, how would you change things in the future. What do you think needs to be done right away to get the D back on track from a DALPA point of view? How did the older/senior guys miss these oportunities given what you know now to be the truth?

Not flamming, just curious as it looks like most of us are out of ideas that really work.

 

[michael707767]

What do you think needs to be done right away to get the D back on track from a DALPA point of view? How did the older/senior guys miss these oportunities given what you know now to be the truth?

.

I'll take a shot at that. First of all, I would terminate the pension. Even if we get 20 year relief on making catch up payments, the underfunded state of our pension is a huge amount of money in the future. Along with the fact that two of our legacies competitors, along with all the LCC competition, do not have pensions. Hard to compete when you still have one.

As too the older/senior guys, well frankly any of them who could have retired and did not (barring unusual circumstances) is a fool. For many of them, They could have retired, taken a sizeable lump sum, and not worried about door number two. As it turns out, door number two could be worse than we imagined. Just getting the qualified vs non qualified money could be worse than having the whole thing terminated for many pilots. And now they won't even get the lump.

 

[General Lee]

So General, how would you change things in the future. What do you think needs to be done right away to get the D back on track from a DALPA point of view? How did the older/senior guys miss these oportunities given what you know now to be the truth?

Not flamming, just curious as it looks like most of us are out of ideas that really work.

Well, I agree with Michael707767 that we ditch the pensions. $10.6 billion in obligations on our backs is quite heavy. We allowed most of the pilots who could qualify the opportunity to take half of it and be done. As far as the pensions for the rest of the workforce, well, I believe all were offered early out retirement--even the stews. A lot of the management people left early.

Then, I would try to get rid of the older, more expensive workforce. We shed 2500 of our senior pilots, and that means younger (longevity wise---years of service) pilots are now flying larger airplanes, for lower rates (a recently recalled pilot just got the 767-400 in LA)--saving Delta money. The Stews are a problem, though. They are our front line for customers, and they aren't really leaving. If they need to furlough (which they probably will--since we are parking 15% of the planes and they didn't have a mass exodus like the pilots) the younger ones with less seniority will be gone. That leaves the older, more jaded stews to be miserable. We need them to leave, but there is no age 60 rule, so either make the schedules tougher or offer more retirement programs. We have 14,000 stews, all making more than any LCC stew because they have 30 years plus. We need the cheaper, younger, more enthusiastic stew.

Then, I would invest more in advertising that isn't corny. I would add more Song flights, and bring that cost down to LCC costs. IF that means make it a seperate pilot category, then that should happen. Give them 30-40 minute turns, and more productive trips. You could make up the pay difference by making the trips 26 hours in 4 days, and making the lines worth 89 hours--but with the same number of days off.

I would try to lease from GE (our major creditor) some new 100 seaters, and put them on medium sized city pairings from ATL and JFK. The rates would likely mirror Jetblues lower rates, but that is the new benchmark, so there you go. Give them qicker turn times (30 minutes) and make the trips productive too.

As for the feed, they are really a vendor, and should be treated like one. They will either perform, or be gone. We don't pay for extra fuel prices (a la Ron Reber at SkyWest)--nope. Everyone pays for increases. That is too bad if you have to cut elsewhere. No more--"We are regionals and we are doing so well when the majors aren't".....I wonder why?

We need to fly to places that LCCs don't go to. We are adding JFK to Kiev, and will announce ATL--CPH here soon I believe. That is how you add revenue. But, we still need good feed domestically to fill those seats. You can't abandon everything domestically.


Those are some of the basic ideas. Get rid of some debt, cut costs a la pay cuts, renegotiate the leases, add some new 100 seaters, expand Song, add some advertising that isn't corny, treat the feed like vendors, and fly to cities not covered by LCCs. Those are some ideas that probably a lot of people have. I hope some of it comes to fruition.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Spooky 1]

I'll take a shot at that. First of all, I would terminate the pension. Even if we get 20 year relief on making catch up payments, the underfunded state of our pension is a huge amount of money in the future. Along with the fact that two of our legacies competitors, along with all the LCC competition, do not have pensions. Hard to compete when you still have one.

As too the older/senior guys, well frankly any of them who could have retired and did not (barring unusual circumstances) is a fool. For many of them, They could have retired, taken a sizeable lump sum, and not worried about door number two. As it turns out, door number two could be worse than we imagined. Just getting the qualified vs non qualified money could be worse than having the whole thing terminated for many pilots. And now they won't even get the lump.

Not sure about the lump. Sounds like you might get it right up until they formally make a motion to terminate it in BK court, which I don't think has happened as of this date. Having said that, I would not want to be waiting for the postman any time soon.

Your solution would cost me a lot of money but I suspect that it's out of either of our hands so I won't hold it against you. If Delta fails now or sometime during the next couple of years makes little difference in my future, other than a few passes. Hope you enjoy flying the 767ER to Europe. To bad you won't be able to afford a beer or glass of wine when you get there.

 

[michael707767]

Your solution would cost me a lot of money but I suspect that it's out of either of our hands so I won't hold it against you. If Delta fails now or sometime during the next couple of years makes little difference in my future, other than a few passes. Hope you enjoy flying the 767ER to Europe. To bad you won't be able to afford a beer or glass of wine when you get there.

I don't disagree. Terminating the pension is going to cost a lot of people money. But, lets face facts, we are all going to lose money. Only question now is how much.

Look the termination or not of the pension is out of our hands. Do you really think we could give enough to make a difference? On a pension that is underfunded by BILLIONS? We could fly for free and still not influence that decision. All that would happen if we try to save it is we end up with a lower contract and they terminate, or not, anyway.